The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Dyna-Beads...(+ spring lube)

Okey dokey, driving season is back in full swing again and
Old Blue is back on the road. I've had what seems to be a
tire balance problem ever since I first brought my '50, 3604
home nearly ten years ago.
First year, never even drove it with the old tires. Soon as
I got it in the garage, I blasted the two piece rims, painted
with PPG enamel, had new flaps, tubes and bias ply tires
mounted on all 5 rims. Had them balanced and the vibration
was not what I expected. They ran square for the first ten
miles or so after sitting, and I mean real square, thought
the front clip was gonna shake right off the front of the
truck in the morning. Had them re-balanced, same thing.
So then the next year different rims from early 70's Chevy
4x4 3/4-ton, again, media blasted, PPG enamel, this time
new radials and balanced.
Better, but still appeared to be a balance vibration. Had
them balanced at a different tire shop, same thing.
Got the dial indicator out and checked tires, rims, hubs,
axles, all run true. Up on four 6ton jack stands to see if
it was in the drive line, no vibration at speed.
This time I found a shop who had just gotten a new road
force balancer and had them balanced another time simulating
the weight on the wheels.
Vibration still there. As a last resort I'd been reading
about balancing beads. Many truckers and bike users giving
positives, still don't understand how they can work but
thought it worth a try, so.....four bags of Dyna-Beads later
and it seems to get better but that cold have been the
placebo effect. after driving the truck with the beads for a
few years now, the vibration is still there and is really annoying.

My question is aimed pretty much straight at Longbox Bill
who is our resident tire expert. So Bill, what's your take
on Dyna-Bead?
I think Ken chimed in a couple of years back on the subject
and running a fleet of trucks might have tried them or not?

The problem with lead weights, or any fixed weight, is and
always has been, that the only time it is in perfect balance
is at that one speed it was balanced at or a harmonic of
that rpm. Centripetal force is proportional to the square of
the frequency.
One might try to compare this to balancing a crank shaft but
the difference is the conterweight is offset in an opposite
direction by the the rotating weight of the rod. The
reciprocating factor is present in an engine which isn't a
factor when considering the centrifugal forces in a wheel.

I left the lead weights on from the last time they were
balanced when I put the beads in, and I'm wondering if
that's not where the problem may be coming from. If indeed
the beads do work they would be a dynamic balanced as oppose
to the static balance that the wheel weights offer.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny, this is not a direct answer to your question about Dyna-Beads so take it for what it is worth. Remove the stock 2 piece rims and bias ply tires and place them in your cherished items storage place. Purchase a set of 1 piece rims with radial tires and enjoy the ride. The other wheels/tires are always there if you want to put them back on.

I remember when you discussed (questioned? commented on?) DynaBeads a few years ago, Denny.

When I saw the title of this thread, I hoped you were reporting back with your "product report". Coincidentally, last week I brought six 20" 3-piece wheels to the mgr of a Goodyear Truck Tire dealership and the topic of those beads came up.

Those 20" wheels/tires do not get balanced and I think I asked about "those beads". He chuckled regarding being in shops when tires/wheels with those beads were being replaced - the beads went all over the floor, making it very dangerous to walk. I do not recall what he said about how well the beads work.

That's what has been going thru my head even before I poured
the in there Tim. If I were doing it myself it probably
wouldn't be a problem, but when some kid fresh out of high
school and is in a hurry to get done and pickup his girl
friend is doing it, well.

Right Gus, you caught it, guess Martin dint have time to read
my short story this morning. I do get kind of long winded and
boring after a page and a half.

Been doin some thinkin' while under the '50 this morning. And
I'm shooting holes in my thinking earlier. As the lead gets
heavier with increased rpm so would the out of balance spot
and in equal proportion. So I'm back to square one once again.


dg

Have you tried running the beads without the lead weights?
And "knowing" you (from only on here), I'm assuming you went online and used the dyna-bead calculator to find out exactly how many oz of beads you needed per wheel?

I've had the Dyna beads on for 5 1/2 years and approximately 20k miles, daily driver, only vehicle, stock rims, no tubes, no wheel weights. The tires are wearing perfectly and I experience no wobble or shimmy at any speed. Given that I have overdrive I do believe I have a 'harmonic sweet spot' at 72 mph, that said I had the same sweet spot when I ran the radials with wheel weights only. The reason I tried the Dyna beads in the first place was that an old truck club buddy gave me a set of old, gently used rims with original pinstriping.

Thanks Tim.

Observing a point on a rolling wheel...

Good reasoning, Cosmo

Thanks for the testimonial, too.

We used Counteract balancing beads in our 275 80R22.5 tires for many years with good success. Not only did it keep the trucks from shaking, but it greatly improved tire wear. Since we made the switch to 445 50R22.5 singles, we don't need any type of balancing. We use strictly Michelins. We now run Michelin XZA3 exclusively on the steering axles and we don't need any type of balancing for them either.

For us, any type of balancing beads have outlived their usefulness. But they did have their day in the sun. For many years they did a good job for us.

Yes I did Mick, that is, put the suggested quantity in each
tire, and they were genuine 'Dyna-Beads' not the off brands.
No I haven't, tried them without the lead weights. I've
thought about just marking the tires and labeling the weights
but just haven't gotten around to trying that. Can't make a
good enough case for why it would make any difference.

I take that as a positive Cosmo. But I don't get the rolling
geometry bit. All of that is true relative to an observer
observing a point outside of the system. But relative to the
axis, that point is only subject to a centrifugal forces
proportional to the velocity, no?


I don't understand the no need for balancing Ken? Why is that?

Denny G
Sandwich, IL

Denny, just a curious observation. Take that point as a weight on a tire/wheel combination. In a tire shop, the tire spins, the tech adds weights, the weight describes a circle. In real life of a wheel in motion, the weight is a cycloid curve. The animation would be more fun having the addition of the radius coming from the center.

Denny, the XZA3 tires we have mounted have been so close to in balance that we figured nothing was required. We had been running a lot of Bridgestones and Firestones for the past 6 or 8 years. I haven't bought anything but a Michelin in the past 2 years. Same goes for the singles. They were as close to perfect as tires I have seen in the 51 years I have been running trucks.

Maybe that's why I'm having such great 'luck' with Dyna-Beads...I have run radial Michelins, two sets in 95 K miles, wear beautifully, 215 85R 16's.

That clears that up Ken. Thought you had some kind of magic
tire that balanced it self. So basically you just got lucky.
That's amazing that they are so uniform that they don't need
it to begin with and that they wear so evenly that you don't
need need it throughout the life of the tires. Thanks

The first radial tires I ever had on a vehicle were the ones
on our 1975 Triumph TR-6. The thing that I noticed the most
about them right off the bat was that the car would roll
without power what seemed like, forever. Huge reduction
in the rolling resistance, Michelin was the tire.

Thanks again for the comments guys.

dg

We have a Class 6 truck, and have been getting a wobble right at +/- 65 in the front end. We don't drive on the highway too much so it's not that big a deal, but it can be annoying when making that occasional longer trip.

We had asked our mechanic (at the dealer) about it and they said they can balance it for 65 but then it may shake at 50, which is where we far more often drive it, so we decided not to.

We just had to have the front brakes replaced, so since we had the tires off we had them take a closer look. Turns out there was "balancing sand" in them (their description - I didn't see it). Obviously it didn't do much good...

I have always had good luck with Michelins, starting with the XZXs on my very first car (too bad they replaced them with the ZXs - there was no comparison), a 1972 Beetle. I will seriously consider getting Michelins for the front when these are due for replacement; and that won't be too long the way they are wearing...

EDIT: obviously my mind is failing faster than my tires. The "good" tire was the ZX, the replacement was the XZX.

Can you count the number of wheels since 1950 that have been weighted and balanced using lead weights? There is something wrong if your wheels are not the same as everyone elses. This is pure speculation, I'm no expert, Bill would know...

The tubes in tires can move, scrunch up, the rubber can be thicker in one place, thinner in the other. The tube type tires are not manufactured to a spec that would help. A perfect solution for you is like Martin said.. Put the old ones in a safe place and get some 1 piece, true radial rims and put modern radials on the truck. Problem completely solved.

Also, if you are experiencing these problems over 45mph, you are going too fast. These trucks top speed was 50 tops (in reason) in its stock form. You are the stock guy. Don't they also put a liner inside the tire? So many factors and why they went to radials.

Sounds to me like you are having problems way beyond which radial to use. If you take radials out of the equation, I have no idea how you can make it work better. Its a farm to market vehicle in its stock form. Good luck!

I don't think people read the posts very good. Denny did put modern wheels and radials on his truck. Its great that everyone wants to run their post count up but at least read what your commenting on first, then post an idea or comment....

My apologies to you Don.. my post count being so important to me, I missed that he used Radial approved rims. At least 6 inches wide no other anomalies concerning the rims or the tires. This is a science, and if you take shortcuts, it won't work. If you do it the way a gazillion others do, you win.

The way I WIN is to purchase modern radial rims. They were not made in 1950, they were made in 2014 using the vintage spec but modernized to work properly. Wheelsmith.

Post Count really? Amazing! Keep up the good work Don.

One more time guys, ya must have missed the first post.....I'll repeat it:

“So then the next year different rims from early 70's Chevy
4x4 3/4-ton, again, media blasted, PPG enamel, this time
new radials and balanced.
Better, but still appeared to be a balance vibration. Had
them balanced at a different tire shop, same thing.
Got the dial indicator out and checked tires, rims, hubs,
axles, all run true. Up on four 6ton jack stands to see if
it was in the drive line, no vibration at speed.
This time I found a shop who had just gotten a new road
force balancer and had them balanced another time simulating
the weight on the wheels. Vibration still there.”
Wish I were as optimistic as you are Deve. "Problem completely solved"???

And your reply about these being only a "farm to market truck" is way wrong. These
were used for every sort of transport that you can imagine, on the farm, around town, all
around the burbs and over the road, They weren’t like the cars of the tri-five era but we
even drag raced with them sometimes.
In the 50's and 60's the average speed limits (set by individual states, no federal laws
yet) was typically 65 day/55 night speed limits on all rural, two lane highways. I started
driving legally on the highway in 1958 and here outside of Chicago, Illinois, I distinctly
remember the disappointment when the feds reduced the limits to 55mph in the early 70's.
My 50' with a 4.10 gear will run 65 easily. I had GM cars
ranging from 1941 models thru the early 50's for all of the
late 50's and thru the 60's and we ran at and often well over
the limits much of the time with these cars.
At 65mph I'm turning just under 3000rpm, with this 216 truck
engine, it developed its maximum brake hp at 3400rpm.
Granted the sweet spot on my truck is between 50 and 55 with the engine turning
around 2400-2500rpm and that is probably the way grandpa would have driven it, and
that would most likely give it the longest life. But they certainly weren't limited to those
speeds and anyone under 50 would run them at or near the speed limit.

Whether it was safe to operate those old vehicles at those
speeds is a totally different subject, but the fact remains
that they could and did run at the speed limit of the day.


Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I listen very well.. but Denny, there are two systems here.. the spindle system and the rim/tire system. If the wheel bearings are adjusted properly, spindles not damaged, the only thing left is rims/tires.

In my youth, when I ran my 1954 3100 on the highway, I even used the original rims, but put radial tires on them. No shimmy, no unbalanced issues at all. But if those old rims had been sitting for years without moving, they would rust out in one area, and cause an imbalance.

I am merely suggesting using real radial rims, that arent suspect as having balance issues without the tires on them. So do this.. have the tire shop balance JUST the rim and see what you get. Did that 4x4 get rode hard and put away wet? Maybe some bashing of some rocks or curbs somewhere?

The deal is... there is no deal. Everyone has rims and radials and they have zero issues with minimal lead weights. That is an undisputable truth. Try another set, and your problems will be over, as long as your wheel bearings/spindle system is working as advertised.

A half ton 1950 with 216 screams and it feels like the engine is going to come out at about 50 mph with a 3 speed trans stock everything. Its true today, it was true in 1950. But I am not being argumentative, just informative. Is my post count high enough now to win the big prize? Good grief.

I'm a little late coming in on this, wanted to ponder things before I said anything. I've only used Dynabeads a couple of times, both times were on lifted 4x4s with oversize off road tires, Super Swamper TSL Radials. I don't recall the exact sizes, but one set had been problematic in getting a good balnce on them. The customer, who also worked with me at the same shop, decided to give them a try. He said they did fine until he got to highway speeds, then the vibration came back. Not as severe, but still there. I don't recall any feedback on the other truck we did.
A thought did occur to me, though. I don't recall in our converations about you vibration problems if you tried this or not, Denny, but have you had the tires match mounted to the wheels? The road force balancers should have the capability of doing this, or at least the Hunter balancers do. Basically, the assembly is spun, valve stem location is marked on the tire. The assembly is then broke down, tire rotated 180 degrees, reseated and rechecked. The tire is then marked where indicated by the balancer. The tire is then broke down, and rotated to align that mark to the stem. That should put the tire so that the heavy part of the tire lines up with the light part of the wheel. I have done this procedure, and have managed to get stubborn tires to take under 1 oz. weight per side.

So you're trying to tell us that the rims off of a 1980
Chevrolet C/K Apache were not "real radial rims" and not
meant for tubeless radial tires???? WOW,,,that's a new one
on me, glad you could educate me!!!

And did you not see the part where I posted twice now, that I
"Got the dial indicator out and checked tires, rims, hubs,
axles, all run true."

And now are you suggesting that my sole purpose for posting to
the Stovebolt forum is to satisfy my ego and build my post
count??? Boy have you got that wrong also.
Perhaps Dennis would be better off not posting to the forum
any more and leave it up to the few individuals that seem to
always know it all.

If what you've been posting to this thread Deve is meant to
irritate me to the point of my pulling everything I've
contributed to the forum for the last year, you're getting
very close.

dg

Running a bit behind Bill, had to blow off a little steam by
going out side and walking around the house a few times.
Thanks for getting back to me. No I haven't tried counter
balancing the tire to the stem . I don't have access to a
tire shop other than as a retail customer and I've already
got way more invested in tire shop labor than a new set of
Coopers deserve. All of the tire shops around here are run
on production basis and the people running them really scoff
at taking on special procedures like your describing. Get
them off and get them on as fast as you can seems to be the
order of the day.
I've tried the beads for a couple of years now and don't see
any difference. They really never made any sense to me to
begin with. Now to get them out is going to be a real
hassle. I can picture what kind of mess they would make and
I don't think I could talk the shop into letting me bring my
vacuum with me and suck them out after they break the first
bead. Heck, all the tire stores around here won't even let
you out in the shop, insurance issues, you know.
I drove over to the next town about 20 miles away yesterday
and I'd be running along a 55 or 60 and watching the left
front fender. It would be steady as a rock for some miles
then I'd start to see it hopping up an down then I'd slow
down or speed up and it would go away just to come back a
little later after running at a new speed. Only thing that
I haven't tried is different shocks and new springs. Shocks
were new about 14k or 15k back and the springs were in good
shape when I had them apart back then.
Well, back to the drawing board, and thanks again for the
suggestion. If I do decide to break them down and suck out
the Dyna-Beads I'll see if I can find a shop that is slow
and willing to play with rotating the tire to the rim.

dg

For what it is worth, I have used Dyna-beads in 4 different Harleys. Ran smooth as glass at any speed. Dyna-beads does recommend balancing before putting beads in as the beads were a "fine tune" for varying road speeds. Loved em.

Also, ran beads in the the six semi rated tires on our 40 foot fifth wheel motor home. I could SEE the tires running smoother at speed. Each wheel assy was close to 80 pounds. The beads again proved to be the nuts.

Just my two cents-

Denny, I used to be in the retail side of the tire game. I have mounted many a tire in my day and have used several types of balancers. Point is, I'm familiar with your problem. I admit I didn't fully read your initial post. Back in the day it was not uncommon to find a tire that was just too wackey to balance. Didn't matter how much weight or where you put it the tire/rim just would not balance. We would pull the tire and mark it with a big white chalk X and send it back to the manufacturer
(B F Goodrich) for warranty. If you are hanging more than 4-5oz weight on the wheel you may have one of those wacky tires. Hope you can get it corrected.

Denny: I probably cannot add much more insight that what has been given so far. But, have you considered that maybe the problem is not with the wheels and tires, but with the steering and suspension? Take for example my 1998 BMW 740iL. Love the car, but shimmy at speed is a constant battle with this car. Tire/wheel balance is important to the equation, but the problem lies with BMW's suspension design and related bushings. In order to keep the car without shimmy, the bushing must be replaced about every 25k miles. So, maybe you have a harmonic oscillation issue. The fact that slowing down cures the problem only to re-occur at a different speed leads me to believe the problem is in the suspension. Maybe change you toe-in setting slightly (i.e more toe-in). What is the condition of the tie-rod ends? Have you considered ensuring the wheels are balance both inside and out?

Regardless, I hope you get this figured out. I am happy to report that my '52 does not have this issue. All new steering components, rebuilt steering box, NEW wheels from Wheelsmith, new radials, new springs, new king pins. Toe-in set by me with a tape measure.

Oh, one more thing: You might consider that your brake drum(s) is (are) wildly out of balance. Maybe try a shop that can balance the wheel/tires mounted on the hub.

I know just where you're coming from, I worked in the retail side of tires, too, until about 6 months ago (shop closed due to corporate idiocy). These days, the make you drill two 1/2" holes in the sidewalls of a warrantee tire, to prevent it from getting mixed in with good used casings that get retreaded in Mexico.
Denny, I see what you mean with your situation. We were pretty good about taking care of balance issues, even to the point of setting up appointments for customers with a problem that couldn't be solved by the tire techs to have the alignment/brake/diagnostic tech (me) take the time to check the problem and solve it as necessary. But some shops simply don't want to put the time into taking care of issues like that.

All interesting stuff..... had a set of new tires on new rims but sat for some time. The panel would shake/rattle/roll at different speeds. Had tires balanced at my friends shop and watched them do it. Still bouncy, bouncy. Although the tires "balanced" it became evident some were "out of round".
Next...took tires off, checked rims (all checked good) then put on a new set of tires. Problem solved.
Are your tires out of round. Shaped like a donut??
Would it be worth the cost to have them "trued".

Just adding to the conversation guys.

I've had 16.5 tires that were hard to balance, I found that breaking both beads, then lube the bead real good and reinflate. Seems like the 16.5's have a bigger bead or different angle to them.

Denny, I know it gets exasperating when in the middle of a problem. That happens to me about weekly, but how I HEARD this situation is that you have never since owning the truck ever had a situation where the wheels just work as advertised. No matter what type of tire, you have had a problem.

In thinking from this far away, it very well might be another problem related to the truck and not the tires/wheels. If you dispute this, then you try another set of wheels. But wouldn't that be your third try? I know its exasperating. Sometimes I just cringe at certain peoples idiotic retorts. But with all of the PMs I get from you, and your concern for getting it right, it seems to me that you have an easily fixable issue.

#1: Try another set of rims/tires.
#2: Take your truck to an alignment/balancing/front end shop. Let them put the truck on their system to check every aspect of your system as a whole, then let them tell you its rims/tires OR many other anomalies related to tie rods, spindles and alignment that could cause this.

Try to get ahold of yourself young grasshopper. We are your friends and trying to help. I have the same problem as you trying to find a decent tire shop. I found one. You can too.

Alignment will not cause a vibration.

Maybe not, but at least the alignment shop here also balances and can troubleshoot all issues related to problems like this. The first place I am taking my new build will be Bud & Steves in Newton, KS. They will run the truck on the dyno at various speeds, check all aspects of the system and report what needs to be done. If something is wrong, they WILL find it.

Or maybe you could just drive it and marvel at how people put up with all of the idiosyncrasies of driving basically a farm implement which you did not get wet in it when it was raining.
Carl

Denny, anyone around that you know where you could exchange tires for a run up the road? Still thinking in Boiling Springs!

Haven’t had anyone ride in my ’50, other than my “big old wife” since I brought it home
in 2005. So it was kind of hard to compare notes with other Stovebolters. So today I
stopped by a busy ‘Bolter’s shop who I meet here a couple years back and dragged him
away from his nearly finished GMC resto-rod, too take a spin around the block with me.
It was a rough five or six mile ride and we talked about the possibility that the
vibrations/shaking and rough ride I was experiencing might be due to shocks. He also
told me about a ’55 that he had and a late 40’s which he’d worked on, that rode like new
vehicles after lubing the leaf springs.
Since I’m the eternal skeptic, in the back of my mind I was thinking that might make a
little difference but not enough to account for the way this truck has been acting for the
past decade.
Reason I’d never lubed the springs even after I disassembled, cleaned and rebushed
the fronts, is because I’d read articles about over working the springs causing
premature fatigue and failure. Also I thought I’d read something by Mike Eaton about
not greasing leaf springs as it would cause the alloy to degrade.
Well…a short search of the tech section at the Eaton Detroit site refreshed my memory.
Seems the grease thing only applies to alloy 5160 in use after the mid 50’s, and he now
is endorsing the use of Delrin liners and buttons.
So…this buddy of mine gave me a can of agricultural chain and cable lub, which is a
light penetrating type oil. I spent a while soaking and wiping down the springs when I
got home and took a ride into town to see if I could notice any difference.
Ohhhh, myyyyy God!!!!!!
This old truck felt almost as good as my 2014 Silverado, taking into
consideration that it had a beam axle and leaf springs up front. I swung into the yard,
left it running ran into the house, grabbed sweetie face by the arm and said, I need five
minutes of your time. Back out on the road I told her, now don’t string me along, do you
notice any difference in the way it rides????
What did you do, she asked?? Just lubed the springs I sez! That’s all… she sez, it rides
like a new truck.

Now, time will tell, but in the meantime I’m gonna order me a case of that agricultural
chain and cable lub, and make it a regular part of the routine to lub up the leafs.

Thanks ctheusa buddy, you made my day.
Denny Graham
Riding smooth in Sandwich, IL

Wow. If I didn't know any better I'd say this sounds like a good start to an Urban Myth...

:-)

Denny, now you will want to make a daily driver out of it. Amazing what a bit of lube will do.

Denny where do you get that chain and cable lube? TSC.?

Glad you got it figured out.

Don't know what your driving David, or much else about you and
your projects, but I was as skeptical as you and a non believer
in using a lubricant in a leaf spring. Don't knock it till
you've tried it, I myself am a convert.

And Martin, weather permitting, it is a daily driver. Of
course being retired I don't drive daily but I have put 16k
on the old gal since I brought her home. She takes a nap in
the warm garage when the snow flies or if it's gonna pour. She
earned her keep when I made the big move a couple years back.
I've had to buy lots of sheet goods, lumber and such in order
to get the new shop in shape and picked most all of it up in
the '50.

Bruce gave me a can of AGCO brand Chain & Cable Lube Brian.
Don't know if it's the brand from Rural King, but he said I
can get it there. Ya might try TSC they carry a lot of the
same stuff I see in Rural King. It's different than the Liquid
Wrench chain lube I use on my Triumph, that's quite heavy and
leaves a tacky greasy residue when the solvent dries.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL