The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Engine Randomly Died

After doing steering and brake adjustment last night, was feeling good about the truck (57 3600) so drove it to work today. 20 miles with no issue. Then a mile from work stopped at a railroad and it died on me, and wouldn't restart.

Strong starter noise, seems to have power. Plenty of fuel in the tank (I added more). I did get it to start once, but died almost immediately.

I had to leave it and walk the last mile into work. I'll be headed back to it this afternoon, to try again, and tow it home if I can't start it.

What else should I look at or can I try?

Thanks,
JFS III

Do you have a fuel filter?
If you do, can you see if it is clogged or has sediment in it?

You might have particles/sediment in the fuel tank that are blocking/decreasing fuel flow.

Fuel delivery: Blocked filter (take it out of system to get home), bad fuel pump, clogged line or carb, needle valve stuck/bad, float stuck See if you can keep it running with choking the heck out of it.

Electrical: check spark, if possible, at a plug. Check for loose wires to coil and Dizzy. Check wires to Ballast resistor. Check wires at Ignition switch. Look at points gap if possible.
If it only runs 19 miles at a time, you should get home!

May be hard to fix on the road. Been there.

With my old tractors - a sudden stop and no start means an ignition issue.

A sputtering, loss of power and stop and brief or no start of the motor usually is fuel delivery.

Check for fuel to the carb? Does the carb drain freely?

Check ignition switch - wires tight? clean? Bartomos (above) offers good advice for ignition check.

Compression should be a non-issue

Your experience - for me, typically gets my pulse and blood pressure up when that happens - frustrating.

Oh my blood pressure is up I'm sure. Made worse by catastrophes at work and being on the phone with China and broken English all morning trying to make heads or tails of what is happening to one of our machines over there. Problems everywhere I turn today.

The good news is my steering adjustments made it a joy to drive in comparison to how it had been. Still feels like an old truck, but much closer to a safer old truck.

Thanks everyone for all your suggestions. I'll get back out there this afternoon and try them all. Hoping to avoid the shameful tow home with another vehicle.

Thanks,
JFS III

As mentioned above, it sounds like electrical. And when you mention that it started once and died almost immediately, points to a bad ballast resistor, which is bypassed when the starter is turning. This means that once you let off on the starter, no juice will go to the coil due to the bad ballast resistor.
An easy fix is to take the ballast out of the system until you get it home.
Carl

What value should the ballast resistor have? I have my multimeter with me, I can ohm it out as a check.

Thanks,
JFS III

Like Carl says, just switch the wire on the ballast-to-coil, to the other side of ballast for now. Ballasts do last a long time usually, but you never know. Spark check at plug gap would be first on the list. That's the farthest spark spot. Work back.

My 49 216 had a similar problem awhile back. Died at a stop sign and wouldn't restart for nothing.
Soon as I popped the hood I saw the problem. The coil wire had dropped too far from the coil. I had regapped the points before I started out and didn't reconnect the coil wire. I don't know how it made it as far as it did.....

Check all your connections at and around the coil/dist.

If all is OK remove the air cleaner and shone a light down the throat of the carb, while looking down the throat fully open the throttle by pulling up on the linkage, you should see a good squirt of fuel down the throat of the carb. If not you aren't getting any fuel to the carb.
Good luck
Dave

She lives again! And got me home.

I checked the fuel filter, some sediment but mostly clear gas. I need to change this, but determined I couldn't remove it without risking damaging the fuel line and emptying my fuel tank (not sure about the later, but I didn't think the fuel pump was in the tank such that there would have been no restriction on flow and it would have emptied itself as I tried to reroute lines to bypass the filter.

I checked the coil to distributor wiring. It was damaged at the distributor end and very loose. I tweaked the electrical connector and reinstalled it.

No luck starting.

Jumper-ed around the ballast resistor. Some stuttering and then she started up. Removed the jumper and it kept running. Jumper wire was a borrowed multimeter lead (all I had at the time) and I couldn't afford for it to fall off.

Drove home without restarting and was able to restart several times without any issue once I got there.

I think I need to go read up on what the ballast resistor does, when it is and isn't used and so on to test it further. Also if it's part of the coil circuit I will check into that.

Thanks everyone for their helpful suggestions.

No one hurt, nothing broken, just another adventure,
JFS III

Sounds like sediment somewhere floating around and blocking when it wants to.
Ballast Resistor, as used I our older trucks, is in the "run" circuit to lower load on points.
When starting, it is bypassed momentarily. There is a straight voltage to coil while big draw starter motor tries to take all of it and lessens the spark needed to start truck quickly. But a straight voltage/current to coil/points during driving (run) would accelerate point burn out. So they say. I've read where it is used to balance out over voltage but I thought voltage regulators did that.

JFS III,

When I first got my truck, It ran very well. Then when I went to take my wife for a ride in it, it stalled two blocks from home. Initially I thought the gas gauge might be off and I was out of gas....ran home, got a gas can, put in a gallon and it started! That weekend, I drove the truck around town. A half hour apart, it abruptly stopped twice. Pretty funny...I was in different locations, but the same guy happened to be behind me both times. He failed to see the humor. Gauges were active and the starter worked. Nothing obvious under the hood. Then after a few minutes, I was finally able to start the truck and drive again.

Anyway, Tom Moore's post covered my issue. It turned out to be a loose wire on the ignition switch. Just about the last place I looked or the problem.

Bob

My whole electrical system is in need of an overhaul. I've gone over it and while the wiring routing and overall schematic is all roughly stock, there are any number of splices, wire nuts, twisted together wires with electrical tape and other nonsense that shouldn't be there. The good news (HA!) is they leave lots of places to attach a multimeter.

I cleaned up the rats nest areas some, stripped out randomly added circuits for things that are no longer there, fixed some twisted splices with actual butt connector splices; recovered with electrical tape several spots with damaged or removed insulation. But it really needs to just be redone when I get a chance. I have parts in a shopping cart online to do a proper electrical harness rebuild, but I want to get a greater understanding of this new to me truck before I dive in to that.

I got all the lights working again, and the charging circuit and gauges functioning correctly, but other bit of wiring cleanup have had to happen as I have issues.

I did not get a chance to check wires around the ignition switch. These dashes are awfully difficult to get under and look up at easily. I'll check through that this weekend.

I'm still in the expanding my knowledge about this truck (and indeed engine repair in general) phase.

Cheers,
JFS III

If you take out the ash tray, you can get a pretty good view of the ignition switch back..

Bob

Sometimes if not all of the old and brittle rats nests offer a lot of cobbled tinkering over the years. A good winters project is to invest into a new harness and really test your patience. But its worth it knowing that the new harness is clean, bright and tight. Glad your home w\o the dreaded tow.

AD era owners or previous.. you do NOT have a bypass ballast resistor setup if you converted to 12v (standard method). Since you use a floor stomp starter, and an ON/OFF ignition switch, there is no means of bypassing during cranking, so everything is always through the ballast resistor. Since its a 57 we are talking about, no issues. The AD system seems to work just fine. Not sure why they thought it necessary to add the extra voltage to the points during cranking. If it was a big deal, we could come up with something for AD and previous? We are here to innovate aren't we?

Yes, there is a resistor bypass system available- - - -use the 12 volt stomp start switch with the bypass terminal on the side. It bolts right onto a 6V starter if you're still using the early flywheel and starter.

http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mmY97ov2k5Tmjs-2KkoasWA.jpg

Why make things ridiculously complex when there's a simple solution? A fly that's swatted with a baseball bat is just as dead as one killed with a high-tech laser beam!

Jerry

Remark 1. The ballast is "bypassed" in the sense that there is an alternate path during cranking. The wire from the stomp switch side terminal is a direct 12V to coil. The wire from resistor is not full 12V. So while foot on switch, full 12V is applied to coil. I guess AD's don't have stomp switch side terminal? If not, then I guess it was improved in TF to provide direct voltage, as I explained below and by HRL, as they went from 6V to 12V.
Remark 2. There is no "extra Voltage" added to points really. It's that the starter pulls so much that reducing the voltage through the ballast, if there was no other source (direct from stomp) the spark would be reduced when needed to start a cold, dry motor.

Ken, you are correct! No second wire to the coil on an AD in 12v mode. I have done a little homework along the way. That's my point! It works on an AD just fine, so not sure where the 'Improved" part comes in.

www.devestechnet.com/Images/ignitiondiagram.gif

So, I guess the spark is reduced and yet WOOHOO! Nothing happens on an AD or previous other than it starts really nice. There are not two wires. There is only one. I do this everyday and I swear I am looking straight at my system, which is the standard method for an AD, and no, one path only. If there is a REAL advantage, I want to TOUT that advantage to the AD world and let them know it is a REAL improvement. If I am wrong Ken, PLEASE tell me how, because unlike most people, there is zero, zilch, none ego or off base issues with me. Its about the truth and getting that out there so that others don't make the same mistakes.

And Jerry.. that is all well and wonderful, but for those who DON'T have that 12v solenoid switch, explain why they need it when everything works fantastic without? And I am not being 'obtuse' I am curious so I can explain the benefit in detail. Why do I need it?

You guys confuse new guys (and even us old guys).

bartamos: "I guess AD's don't have stomp switch side terminal? If not, then I guess it was improved in TF to provide direct voltage, . ."
[there is no need for a foot-starter starter switch with side terminal on a 6v system - the 6v coil gets the full/direct voltage (6v) when cranking]

Deve: "No second wire to the coil on an AD in 12v mode."
[a second wire can easily be added/use in "12v mode" - and should be on all manual-transmission foot-starter truck 12v starters]

The side terminal was no improvement for A-D trucks.
All A-D trucks were 6v. There is no need for a side terminal on the 6v starter switch.

If an A-D truck is later changed to 12v (I will not call that an improvement, just a change), the starter-switch with side-post can easily be used to provide full 12v to coil/points, when starting/cranking. This is possible even if you use a 6v starter on a 12v system - just put the 12v starter switch with side-post onto the 6v starter.

Yeah, but what if you do NOT change that switch Tim? You have a 6v starter. You are applying 12v. Its VERY happy spinning that fast, so it starts in less than one revolution. I mean, hit the starter and BAM! its running. Other electronic genius's here explain to everyone else why that is so it's believed!

Do we have a "Beating a dead horse" icon in the smilies? I'm tired of explaining things to people who are willfully ignorant and want to stir the pot just for the sheer joy of being frustrating!

Bon't bother me- - - -I'm tired of casting pearls before swine!
Jerry

Edit: I'm also looking at the possibility that my 75-year-old brother in law who just got out of the hospital today might be on the verge of having a stroke tonight, and we might have to go back to the E.R. on short notice. Not in the mood to play silly word games!

Sorry for the confusion, Did not understand how 6V systems solve the "starter stealing volts from spark" and "save the points" issues. Thought that TF improved those issues for AD.
Good luck to your Brother in Law. Understand your frustration at us swine.

HRLSpeak for I don't know. Hope your younger brother is okay. Meanwhile, seriously.. you DONT KNOW! One wire to the coil, 12 volt battery, but SIX VOLT starter. No wiring to bypass the resistor. You can speculate that ohms law would prove that you are putting a similar voltage to the coil as your bypass system would on startup since its twice the voltage. But YOU can be obtuse all day and guess what? The system works perfectly! Everyone with a 6 volt starter on a 12 volt system knows it. There are lots of people here with that system. Why am I always the one who gets dumped on? I think its a badge of honor.

Deve, we all need to realize that this post was about helping a guy stranded on the road. You started asking questions and making comments and caused members to try and answer you. He has a 57 and he has a ballast resistor.
I should not have switched over and tried to answer your questions. You should not have switched over to advising AD and pre AD about bla bla. You should have started another post. Lets drop the back and forth, me included. TC was trying to straighten out those who were trying to straighten out. Poster is satisfied. Done deal. If you can please delete your previous "DON'T KNOW" post I can delete this.
Your self promotion in your signature can go in your profile as homepage info or in tip section tips. Would that be more discrete?

I can tell you when the side post ballast bypass switch comes in handy with an AD converted to 12 volts with a 6 volt starter. It is when your points are approaching the moment when they should be dressed up and you haven't had time to do it because your wife is on your a** for not cutting the grass, even though it doesn't really need it, and what about the mold on the house, and the downstairs bathroom is a mess...
What was the question again?
Carl

Many of us haven't had that bypass wire for years and the system works flawlessly. I am simply trying to understand why. If its a question that I don't know, maybe others also don't know. This has always been the reliable place to get information about our trucks that you don't know!

There is zero self promotion going on here! I use my site instead of the Milliman's Photobucket for my photos and my site pertains to our hobby. I do not write all of the info there, others who are on the Oletrucks Yahoo Groups list help out as well as here. Trying to get information that stands the test of logic is very hard, so I make sure to preserve it in How-To articles not always done by me! When it IS done by me, its not ME that provided the information, it was YOU. Self Promotion your [censored]!

You are right, I think the OP has been served, but I will ask this question later in another post.

Maybe because you deserve it? Your whiny nitpicking gets old in a hurry.
Jerry

Just trying to get things right Mr Lincoln. Of course when we find holes in your knowledge base there is always something more pressing than answering the question to do. Been that way for all the time I have been here. (2000) We all have our personal methods of bowing out before we say something on a subject we don't fully understand. Good for you!

Here is your answer.

"HRLSpeak for I don't know. Meanwhile, seriously.. you DONT KNOW!"

"Just trying to get things right Mr Lincoln. Of course when we find holes in your knowledge base there is always something more pressing than answering the question to do. Been that way for all the time I have been here. (2000) We all have our personal methods of bowing out before we say something on a subject we don't fully understand. Good for you!"

It seems like your question is specific. "Why do you need a ballast resistor with a 12V battery and a 6V starter." I don't think anyone has said you do. That's the first thing to get thru to you. If you will read the responses. HRL said a bypass system is "available" and TC said "Possible".
A full 6V system does not need a ballast resistor (I finally got that message, I think?.) A full 12V system operates better and longer with a two path circuit, with one path as reduced voltage to the spark generating components. The other a temporary "start/full 12V" path. It does not need the resistor to "operate". IF coil does not over heat, IF other components last, IF motor starts and runs OK. Just no reason not to have it on a full 12V system.
As far as the hybrid system you ask about. A person enters into it at their own risk. The experts do not know what other components are 6V and which are 12V. They don't know if the hybrid system person used a coil that is external, internal or eternal resistive, they don't know if it's pertronix, HEI or standard, They may not care to speculate on mix and match systems. They are Hot Rodders from way back and mechanics who did a lot of tricks for the drags and such. You can't learn from them if you attack them. They don't need you OR me. You are still a "grasshopper" with a web site.
The basic idea for the bypass is described in this thread for all others to decide how they want to design their hybrid system.(conversions).

The baseline for 6V and 12V is to do it stock.

Great post Ken. Another great post completely missing the mark. Let me try to get through the cloud cover here...

When you do a stock 6 volt conversion to 12 volts, you follow how-to articles like the one found here in the Tech Tips section. You remove the 6 volt battery, put a 1 wire alternator and a few resistors in line with a few gauges and a ballast resistor (or resistor coil) and thats about it. These articles always say to use the 6 volt starter because that has proven to work. NOWHERE, I MEAN NOWHERE does it say to get a 12v solenoid switch and run a wire to your ignition switch.

If they DO say that, my problem is, why? The 6 volt starter and a properly tuned engine will start in less than one revolution, WITHOUT a bypass wire. WHY? Is it possible that because you are using a 6 volt starter, you are essentially doing the same thing as if you added a bypass wire? Anyone with much understanding of ignition systems should be able to answer this, although to be honest, not sure why many people would know unless they are running this kind of system.

This is why its dead true, Mr Lincoln gets all pissy when he doesn't know. I do not know why. I would hope this is a relatively new thing since he was a TEACHER!!

This is no small thing. When writing about ignition conversions for AD era trucks, this is a very important issue so we can all be on the same page when it comes to PROPER conversions.

For my frame up resto, there will be no conversion, everything is native 12 volts. EXCEPT, how cool would it be to not have a second bypass wire in the system because the starter is a 6 volt. (A positive thing)

I know you like to suck up to the winning team and all Ken... see it all the time, but in this case, how about we just drop the issue, since nobody knows and I will find out another way.

You keep changing the question every time the other one gets answered. Do you know you are doing that? Is it to keep an argument going?

A 6V starter rotates a whole lot faster on 12V, which rotates the motor faster and thus delivers more spark cycles. Motor fires more in the same time as a 12V starter. Motor fires more, quicker start. As far as one revolution goes, if a motor starts in one revolution, it would not matter what turns it. That's just one fire cycle.

I do not know what you mean by "12V solenoid switch". Foot switch? Ignition switch with spring loaded position or a starter with a solenoid on top.
Explaining the truth, the facts and interpreting the posts for you is not sucking up. I don't suck up to anybody. I do respect some people.

Its a start. Thats the issue. The reason for a bypass wire as I understand it is that during cranking, we need more voltage to the coil just during cranking. So the bypass wire bypasses the ignition ballast resistor just during cranking. With a 6 volt starter, as you mentioned it turns REALLY fast. But it also would put quite a bit less overhead on the system. Needing less voltage means more voltage to everything else during cranking.

So, MAYBE that difference is the same difference as if you did a proper bypass wire system on a native 12v system? I do not know for sure. Makes it hard to write about it. All I do know is without any bypass wire, it starts really quick. Makes me wonder why a bypass system was ever created. But its not apples to apples due to the 6v starter on a 12v system. I have never had an actual 12v starter on my AD trucks. You cant put one on them unless you have the TF series flywheel. Another reason to get this resolved. You see, this isnt just a matter of going to the auto parts store and getting a 12v starter. You cant without also putting a 5 TPI ring gear on the flywheel.

So what would be NICE is to get a consensus among people in the know here on The StoveBolt as to if a person shouldn't in the very least mention getting a 12v solenoid (manual foot stomper) switch and wiring it as if you had a 12v starter, complete with diagram and information as to how to do it. Its a lot of trouble for nothing if its just not at all necessary. First problem is finding people 'in the know' when most of them listen and never talk (for various reasons). Like Sam Kinneson said.. SAYIT!! SAAAYYYYIT!!

For me it would include your recommending the use of a sand blaster with silica sand on internal engine parts and carburetors, then recommend hand sanding the machined surfaces with 400 grit sand paper where you sand blasted!
It is hard to take someone serious who would even consider doing something like this.

You asked.

Carl

Yet, the machine shop mic'd all my parts and they are well within tolerance including the pistons. (which I assumed would be throw-away). Everyone criticizes what they dont know. Just because you do things a certain way, doesn't mean we all have to do it the same. If any problem occurred from what I have been doing, I would pay a huge price in early engine failures, more money at the machine shop, etc. Yet no, been doing it this way for over 15 years and probably 7-8 engines.

People who are not trained in the conventional way, have no idea how to do anything, self taught individuals, often come up with unique ways to solve a problem. They also come up with questions that have never been asked. Its just the way it is for some of us. This is a badge of honor because inventiveness, ingenuity, and precision should be honored, not ridiculed. I find it amazing sometimes the crap I have to go through here from people who don't understand that. I am truly embarrassed for them.

Remember the HEI thread Carl? Everyone? What I had to go through was a very similar ridicule because nobody wanted to let go of their information and wanted to belittle the guy who wanted to create something. Well, the stainless steel adapter plates are at the waterjet right now. The Ignition Specialist I sent my test distributor off to in Indy tested it on his machine and it should be good to go, however, I am waiting on my engine to come back from the machine shop so I can do further testing.

Everyone here has the option, rather than making a TOTAL arse out of themselves to just not reply. Yet somehow, people who don't know the answer want to keep up some argument that does its very best to cloud the actual issues. Its an internet phenomena because I know you boys are not complete jerks in real life and would think its cool for someone to innovate. Pick on me all you want, despite YOU, I WILL find the answers I seek, and if my methods are unorthodox because I wasn't edumacated the same as you, keep up that snide laughter until I fail. Good luck with that.

It's nice that you guys are being so "clean" in your snarkyness (it's a new word) toward each other. I have gleaned some valuable info from all the posts in this thread. I (and it's just my opinion) feel the usefulness of this thread has passed and you gentlemen need to move on. Get out and drive and enjoy the day!

Yes, Martin, the truck-related usefulness ended long ago.

However, you took this thread in a new direction when you used the word "snarkyness" (nice), a word with many meanings/contexts (all of the definitions below were cut-pasted from various sources):

- short tempered or irritable

- combination of sarcasm and cynicism

Usually accepted as a complimentary term.
but
Snark is sometimes mistaken for a snotty or arrogant attitude.

. . containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

"Get out and drive and enjoy the day!"

Now, it is time for me to rotate tires on my Suburban (for the first time) and check/set toe-in (both front tires were showing a little wear on the outer edges, after 12 years and only 10,000 miles).

I'll delete this post later today.