The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 1954 235 project

re. wood burning stove. That keeps me nice and toasty but wood processing is getting old, I've been studying on an oil burner anymore. Youtube makes it look easy......

re. run stand, I agree w/you and that wise poster but there in lies my quandary. At present my truck is still tooling around on it's original 216 and although it shows it's age with each and every additional mile I put on it, it still just keeps on "keeping on". I enjoy it so much on my Saturday morning errand runs that I don't want to take it off line for any extended time just yet.
In a way I'm lucky in that I don't have to have that 235 just yet, but the bottom end of that 216 is wearing as indicated by the lowering oil pressure and it's time is drawing nigh.

So with all that said, my plan is to have the 235 broke in, any/all bugs worked out and ready to go then do the swap over a weekend to keep down time to a minimum. If I keep it down too long I'm liable to start the frame off and I don't want to go there just yet

Dave

That is the quicksand that got me. It went something like, "well, the engine's out- might as well clean up the frame under it...well, can't get to this part without removing that there fender...well, with all this off, might as well get it in primer..." And so on.

I truly hope I'm not the first to work themselves into such a conundrum; and I highly doubt I am. Stick with your plan- I think I started taking too much advice (the kind that rings like, "if you don't do _____ now, you'll regret it later").

Good luck & sending PM re: run-in.

Brad

Brad you are NOT the only one in that situation... I worked myself into the same situation, hence why Dave has my old motor...

That is one good looking engine Dave! Love seeing it progress since I knew what it came from first hand!

Finally got to speed some time on the 235. Had to rearrange some priorities, sometimes life just don't wait on anything.
Anyways some updates.

Transferred the engine from the engine stand to the run stand. I decided to modify my hastily put together wooden test stand by beefing up the sides and mounting it to a dolly rated at 1500lbs. This way I could move it around. It works out OK and everything seems stout enough to take the rigors of a running 235, atleast long enough for break-in and tweaking.

I'm using the 54 bellhousing for break-in only so it's not been prettied up. The 216's bellhousing will be the permanent bellhousing as will 54 flywheel (which I had resurfaced earlier).

I ran some static tests and at 1st things checked out good, then things went south, then they worked out again.

After getting it on the run stand and the 54 flywheel bolted on, it was easy to check timing and valve clearances with the BB centered on the pointer.The clearances - TOK from my previous settings.
Then I removed the distributor and used my drill and long bit to spin up some oil pressure. Got 40 psi and oil out the rocker's weep holes - TOK
Reinstalled the Dist, set static timing but left the plugs out - TOK
Installed the starter, hooked up my deep cell battery then tried to spin it w/the starter - NO GO..... Would hardlu budge it....
I could spin the engine via a rachet and 1/2 to 3/4 inch adapter in the manual starting receptor on the crank but the starter wouldn't spin it. It was tight but not that tight.
Put the battery on charge, cleaned up and took the Mrs out to eat and ran by the large hot rod show that was in town. Needless to say I was highly distracted.

After returning a oouple hrs later I decided to try again and finally got some joy
With the starter spinning the engine, I verified oil pressure at approx 10psi and after several spins got oil out of the rockers - VERY GOOD TOK
Hooked a line to a gas tank and verified fuel was pumping to the carb - TOK
Unfortunately I'm not getting any fuel spray from the accelerator circuit so it looks like the oarb is going to need some attention before I go for the startup stage.

Hope to run it soon.
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Just alittle taste to see if it'll run. Breakin to ensue shortly.
1st start

Had to address a situation with the Rochester B that came on the engine before I could start it. The pump wasn't pumping fuel into the venturi. I'll post it in another thread.
Dave

Sounds good, congrats.

Thanks Don.

Looks like my short run and it's associated pressurized oil distribution has presented me with oil weepage at the rear lower corner and middle section of the side plate. Noticed a slight trail of my green break in oil down the that rear corner and on the engine ID boss behind the dist.
When I was assembling the engine I thought it odd that the drain holes for that lifter/pushrod gallery were slightly raised above the floor of the gallery. Seems like it allows for a slight buildup of oil in the bottom of that gallery and especially in that lower corner. I guess it's to allow some oil to remain and seep down around the lifters. I dunno - just a swag on my part. In any case some oil is going to build up there....

I used my favorite Permatex Aviation #3 gasket sealer there and it looks like it's not going to seal. Research is turning up either Permatex Super 300 or a Permatex High Tack type sealer/gasket maker. Someone had used what looked like a silicone type sealer on it when I tore it down.
I'd be interested in hearing if of successful sealers in this area.

Also ordered the larger 10" clutch assembly from a well known local flaps. I cross ref'ed both the 49 & 54 truck spec's and the 9 1/8" was std and 10" optional for 49 and the 10" was std for 54. Both 10" assemblies carried the same part number.
I'll be reusing the 49 216's bellhousing with the 54's flywheel and clutch assembly. Hopefully this'll be a direct boltup.

Breakin is scheduled for this Sat. If all goes well a minimum 20 minute run at 2K rpm with fresh garden hose water for cooling will return the results I'm hopeing for.

Dave

Sounds mighty sweet Dave...Good job! I've not been doing it for 40 yrs like some of our colleagues here, but I frequently run the 235 in my 48 with only manifold and a 12" exhaust pipe while it's in the shop and to keep things oiled up, and I really can't tell the difference from the sound of your duals. I hear, at speed with a couple glass packs, it's very different.

Why did you go with larger clutch?

Thanks Allen. The youtube audio don't do those Fentons justice, they sound great, I don't know if it's the cam or the duals or a combination of them both but it had alittle bit of a nice lope to it for the short time I ran it. I'm still comparing between dual Delta 40 Flowmasters or dual Dynomax's. Smittys glass packs seem to be a popular choice but thats not the sound I'm after, I want a low runble at idle/slow speed and a distinct deep dual rumble when I goose it.

I opted for the 10" clutch mainly because thats what came on the 235. Since I'm reusing the 235's flywheel I know the assembly should bolt right up. And it was recommended earlier in this thread too

Dave

I've heard those flowmaster 40's on a V8 with a big lopey cam and agree they sound dang good, very popular with street rodders these days, never on a straight 6, so when you get it piped up, we will need another video.

Plz save me from 8 pages of posts, and remind us what cam you used in the rebuild.

Super 300 has been my favorite brush-on sealer for over 50 years. It was developed for use around 115 octane aviation gasoline.
Jerry

Allen, I opted for the 264 3/4 grind cam from Patricks w/solid lifters.

The new cam required new style lifters and different length pushrods but otherwise a direct bolt in.
I also went w/the aluminum cam gear which is what was on it originally.

Jerry, thanks for the input, I'll try that Super 300 w/a new gasket. Usually that Aviation Permatex seals pretty good so I'm surprised it's seeping. It's a brush-on type also.

Dave

Proceeded with the break in today.Everything went pretty well up to the 15 minute mark when those blue flames melted the alt's sensing wire and shorted out the ign circuit which then killed the engine. Once I got it fixed I discovered that the starter crapped out. When I removed the band parts of brushes fell out, so it was toast.I didn't run the starter long as the engine caught pretty quickly so I'm not sure what happened but atleast it got the engine started.

I installed a 180 thermostat and duct taped the water hoses to the new radiator hoses. I put an inline water on/off valve at the lower radiator hose connection so I could control cold water flow into the engine. It didn't take long for the thermostat to open up and circulate the hot water out.

The alt charged and the engine settled down to 35 psi on th eoil pressure. Water temp stayed at 180 on the gauge.

I know 20 minutes is the standard for cam break in so I'm going to think on whether I'll run it again on the stand or start preparing for the swap.
If I do run it on the stand again I'll use a metal shield/deflector between those headers and the block/wireing.
Blue Flame I rekon
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You're probably good to go with a 15 minute break-in. As long as there's enough oil splash from running well above idle, the cam and lifters establish a running fit pretty quickly. The whole reason for not idling after startup with a new cam is to flood the cam/lifter junction with plenty of splashed oil off the crank and rods to prevent scuffing while the new parts are getting acquainted with each other. A stovebolt doesn't have the extreme valve spring pressure that some high performance engines do, so a short break-in run doesn't present any real concerns.
Jerry

Thanks Jerry.
I've decided another breakin run is warranted. The carburetor is very questionable at this point so I want to put the engine through some more paces, i.e. set the idle, test at low/mid speeds etc., before I stamp that carb as serivcable. Shame the carb on the 216 which is working perfectly isn't a direct boltup.....

I think I also figured out how the starter fried. In looking at the video I see where part of the linkage on the stomp starter popped out (my bad), which I figure may have left the bendix engaged after the engine started. Those open headers are extremely loud so I couldn't or didn't hear this occur.
So I may muffle it down before the next start and run. I figure a couple down pipes that can be reused for the permanent exhaust and go ahead and get the mufflers I'm going to run and do a temp boltup.
I mean if I can't hear a bendix staying engaged what else am I not hearing?

Dave

Got it broke in. i put a couple down pipes and did a temporary connection of the 2 Dynomax Turbo mufflers and I am pleased w/the sound. Not to loud but will bark when i want them to.

The engine ran very good with no unusual sounds. Couldn't get a good reading on the vacuum gauge as it didn't want to idle down. The carb did great at mid range & WOT but the accelerator and idle circuits have problems. I may just get another. When I set it by ear and shut it down and restarted it, the timing light shows the BB advanced alomost to the edge of the hole. When i'd retard back the engine would start running rough. I figure I'm going to have to run that 264 3/4 cam alittle advanced so I may make some small advance graduation marks on the flywhjeel. I'd be researching that.
and last but not least that blamed side cover leaked with the new cork gasket and Super 300 sealer.
It was much worse than the Best Gasket gasket so I'll be ordering another and check that cover for trueness. It may get replaced by a chrome one, more HP you know

All in all it started and ran pretty good and theres no chunks of metal or differing colored swirls in the breakin oil I drained afterwards.

I believe it's gonna do.

Dave
P.S. sorry no pics or videos, got too busy and didn't even think about it. '

Glad to hear it Dave! That whole process is coming up for me soon. I love it when a plan comes together!

Been following your rebuild also Deve, nice wabpage and rebuild, should be very helpful to many, good luck.

Received a very nice looking rebuilt Rochester B and a Best gasket side pan gasket so I threw them on and couldn't wait to run the engine again today.
Good news is no leak, no slip no drip from that side pan now. I used a VERY liberal amount of Super 300 on both side of the gasket plus pounded the bolt holes back flush with the rest of the pan and it's finally good to go....

Bad news is the new rebuilt carb no workie. Well it'll workie if I keep the choke partially closed. The engine acted like it had a vacuum leak so I spent quite a bit of time testing for leaks at every place I could the point the carb cleaners straw too. I kept chasing false leads but kept getting somewhat consistant idle changes when I sprayed around the carbs throttle shaft and where the accelerator pump linkage entered the body.
Heres a vid of me chasing the problem New carb won't run right
So after far too much time chasing this problem I decided to unbox the original carb I was going to ship back to the rebuilder and try it again. Well it worked 100% better and would both idle down to 550 rpm and run through all the ranges with the choke wide open. Only problem it has is the accelerator circuit ain't right. It stumbles no matter where the timing is set.
So I'll be calling the rebuilder to discuss a remedy.
Heres a vid of the engine running much better on the old carb. Runnin ggood on old carb. The valve cover was off as I decided to check the valve clearances in troubleshooting, they were all spot on .006 intake, .013 exhaust. (I set them cold at .006 and .015)

Talking about timing, the engine seems to run and idle best with the timing BB advanced to practically past the timing hole. I tried to use the vacuum gauge method to set timing and the fuel/air settings but can't get the needle to steady up at any point. Best I could get was 4 to 5 inch fluctuation at a high point of 20". I don't know if I should be concerned with this or not due to the cam's 3/4 grind.
Wonder if the valves opening more and longer is effecting the vacuum method?

A few other things I'd like to point out. I wanted some down pipes for test stand running so I went ahead and ordered a full dual exhaust pipe kit from an online supplier and I've been going back & forth with them since I received them. You can see in both videos that the passenger side muffler sits approx 12" further back than the drivers side. This in itself ain't a deal breaker but the problem is both sections of pipe that connect to the mufflers and have the bends to go over the rear end are both exactly the same length. If your following me you'll realize that the hump on the pass side pipe will be approx 12" further back than the drivers side nump. Inorder for this to work I'd have to disconnect and angle the rear end forward on the pass side to work with those pipes.....
Well they tell me if I used their mufflers it would work out, I asked if one muffler was longer than the other and they said no they were the same length. Well, anybody else see a problem here? They are supposed to send me a couple 24" sections, this was last week and I'm still waiting.....
A couple pics of the pipes mocked up: pipes 1
Pipes 2
The mufflers do sound good tho.
Specs on the idle:
Idle 550 rpm
temps 180
dwell 40
volts 13.5
I pulled the plugs before I ran today and they were alittle sooty but otherwise OK. It was good to see that none of them were steam cleaned....

Dave

Great post Dave. You are learning about all this the same as me! I do not have any advice for you on the carb. I just follow the rebuild instructions and hope for the best. The one I rebuilt for this build, I havent tested yet. If you remove the PCV Valve does that fix your vac problems? Very curious about this since that is one of the reasons I am building this test engine.

Great experiences even if it is a mixed bag! Good luck!

Dug this old post back up to look up a few things and see that it's still taking hits so I'll update the engines progress.

Way back after I got it running I posed a question about whether I should be concerned with a rapidly fluctuating vacuum reading at idle and I'll answer the question as yes, I should have been concerned. The vacuum should be much more steady if not completely steady at idle, even with a hotter cam.
I could never get a good idle so in deciphering the vacuum readings I decided to pull the head and investigate. The readings told me that I either had a sticking valve or a blown head gasket. I found #3 intake would stick and some marks on the #3 piston indicates that it was helping to close it. Thankfully no more damage other a few indentations.

I detailed some other problems I encountered with the valve springs in another thread but will update here. I found the original springs to have a free height of 2.04" - 2.06" and specs called for 2.15" and/or 2.25". I ordered new 2.15" springs and all new intake valves. I lapped them in and installed the new intakes and springs, cleaned up and relapped the exhausts.
They all failed my bench top "fill the ports with gas test" as they all weeped gas when closed before tear down and the exhausts still did after relapping.
Well even though this machine shop shop did a great job on my 216's head I decided to take the head to another machine shop to go completely through the head again. This shop will do a vacuum test to ensure each cylinder seals before they stick a fork in it. The original rebuilder told me the original intakes and springs were fine and only after perhaps 3 hrs of run time I find out one was sticking and the others weren't sealing when closed.

I'll fill the ports again and test before I bolt it all back together, these gaskets kits tain't cheap....

Dave

Persistence always pays off Dave. It's not always easy or cheap, but in the end, when your motor runs perfectly, it's very satisfying. Keep us posted!

Got the head back a couple 3 weeks or so ago but got busy so it sat. I did put a coat of Chevy Blue on it so it's had a couple weeks to cure.
Sad to say but the 2nd machine shop found several problems with my supposed rebuilt head.
Two of the new exhaust valves were scared and burred too bad to reuse. The guides that were supposed to be new weren't and they were filthy which led to atleast 1 intake sticking if not more. The seats were new so they got recut and lapped. He used some spacers to get the new springs up to spec and vacuum tested each port for sealing. He also acid dipped the head again so it was very clean and paintless...
Bottom line:
2 new exhaust valves.
6 new intake valves (supplied by me)
12 new guides
12 new 2.15" springs (supplied by me)
Recut the seats
Relapped all valves/seats.
New valve stem oil seals.
Shaved 0.006" off of head to get it plumb/level.

So sticking valves and a possible leaking head gasket were my main problems (as indicated by the fluctuating vacuum gauge)
My bad for not checking the head over better when I got it from the 1st machine shop. A mistake I'll not make again.

I did bolt it back on and fired it up last Sat., in between other priorities and it fired right up and ran strong for the short time I ran it (no water hooked up). It needs the timing set and the carb(s) setup so we'll see. Its a good thing the 216 ain't ready for the pasture yet

Dave

Almost done update. .....Warning long.....
Some items addressed, fixed and observations.

1) leaky side cover. Gotta admit I've never had so much aggravation with trying to stop an oil leak. A Best gasket gasket, Super 300 sealer and a new side cover finally sealed the lifter gallery up. I guess I'll gain some HP from it being chrome

2) Carb issues. It's been a challenge to find "affordable" serviceable Rochester B's. So much so I finally kicked the can and punted. Funny the B on my 216 has given outstanding service. I know they're out there but the price approached that of other options so I took another fork in that route.
The fix was a set of Carter Weber 32 DFT's mounted on a Fenton dual carb intake.

3) Manifold heat is the last issue I need to address before the swap. During the running tests yesterday I discovered that the heat from the single copper line feed header setup I presently have isn't providing enough heat to the manifold to justify it.
My hand touch test could barely detect any heat on the bottom heat gallery of the intake manifold. The copper tube was plenty hot but not the manifold. So I'm either going to modify it for dual feed (a copper line from each header) or go with circulating hot water through the manifold. I've seen setups with either and some with none so I'm researching that now.
Since the original engr's thought a heated intake manifold so necessary that it added additional complexity and cost to their factory intake design and since I"m no ICE engineer, I'm going to heat it one way or the other.

I could never get the engine to run satisfacturally on the Rochester B's I've collected. At least not to my liking. Every carb I tried, including the original I rebuilt had an issue. End's up I was just inheriting others problems. I made one good carb out of many but I had already made the decision to go dual so I still needed another. Since there's no guarantee on getting a good serviceable carb, with some that could cost a couple big ones and the consensus that dual 235 sized Roch B's are too much carb for a street 244 (235 bored 0.60 over), I decided to try Tom Langdons dual Carter Weber 32 DFT setup and the results of my tests yesterday immediately justified the price. Wished I had done it earlier instead of stubbornly trying to stay period correct.
I like the progressive 2 BBl setup, the electric heated automatic choke and having a modern paper air cleaner. The carb is also called a Motorcraft 740 so rebuild parts are available from most FLAPS.
The kits (carb, linkage and adapter kits) had everything needed. Even the dual fuel supply line I had setup for the Roch B's bolted directly up using the same fittings.
I also ordered his manifold water heat kit that I will either use, sell or trade.

With all the aggravation in getting the engine running good enough to finally swap it in I'm having to convince myself to pull those manifolds one more time to install a different heat setup. Course it'll be alot easier on the run stand than once it's in the engine bay so I'm considering that also.

So in conclusion the engine finally ran like I wanted it to. I was able to set the carbs and timing via the vacuum gauge. With the 3/4 cam and dual carb setup I got the idle I wanted at 600 rpm. Lower rpm gave it too much lope and lower vacuum readings. Even going by sound and feel 600 rpm was it's sweet idle spot. Midrange and WOT rpm was very good and I finally got that smooth acceleration I wanted.
I put the original distributor back in as the FLAPS replacement wobbled too much. I had swapped it in trying to isolate what ended up being carb problems.

All in all a very good day

A couple pics:
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Looks good, Volfandt. What will you do for oil filtration?

I was just thinking about these dual intakes and how folks address that issue.

Run your vac advance from one carb only.

And as for the heated intake from the fentons you should have both hooked up if you want anything to happen. With one you are essentially trying to push hot air into a sealed chamber with a single line. Without the second line connected you are not allowing the hot air to move around and circulate. I went with water heated on mine. During a cold start i just have to let mine idle a few more min to get the intake warm unlike the old stock instant heat setup.

Good show- - - - -now don't trash that 216!
Jerry

Regarding wolffcub's helpful observation regarding "circulation" in the intake manifold:

True circulation can take place in an Offenhauser or Clifford intake manifold.
True circulation does not take place in the Fenton manifold.

The Offy & Clifford intakes allow coolant circulation in one side and out the other side of the intake. "in one side and out the other side"

The other design of intake (such as the Fenton) does not allow side-side (in-and-out) circulation of coolant-fluid. It allows "contact" heat transfer. Using a two-tube heat plate and a tube from each exhaust manifold, should allow adequate heat for the carbs with this design intake manifold (it has worked for me with at least three dual-carb combinations).

By the way, maybe someone who knows about older "hop-up" equipment for dual Fenton exhaust manifolds knows something about the Fenton heating component kit that supposedly used some sort of valve system to allow exhaust gases to move up to the intake manifold, and then somehow allows gases to move down (away) from the intake manifold.

It is too bad that there are no repo Fenton dual exhaust manifolds that bolt up to the heat-plate opening in the intake manifold (as some earlier Fenton dual exhaust manifolds were designed to to).

JW51, re. oil filtration, I'm either going to swap the bypass oil filter I have on the 216 over to the 235 or not run one. After seeing how well the internals of this engine was without any oil filtration and reading up on PreDaves blog I decided against the full flow.

wolffcub, great input. I was debating whether to use just one vacuum source or both, yours and others have convinced me to go with a single, makes more sense. IIRC you are running a similar setup, are you still running the same jets that came with the carbs?

Jerry, it's getting closer to a middle TN run. The plan is to keep and rebuild the 216. I'm not sure that it matters but it is the original engine to the truck. Maybe you'll have your tooling done to modify the rods for insert bearings by then

Tim, great info. Good to know about the dual heat feeds working OK for you. I'm leaning that way over the water heat. I agree if the water taps were at the ends it would circulate in the manifold better. With the plate taps it's probably no better than a dual exhaust gas heat.

re. an exhaust heat check valve. Tom Langdon mentioned that was the only way dual exhaust heat would work. Also said he hasn't seen the valve in years.
The valve would work similar to how a PCV valve works. Allowing one way flow when one sides pressure is lower than the other.
If we could only find a PCV valve with pipe thread connections that was also able to withstand immense heat.

Funny, I went with the Fenton dual intake manifold because I thought it would matchup better with the Fenton headers. Well I still had to use the modified OEM manifold clamps to bolt them both up.

Dave