The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 235 engine noise, help needed!

I have a new to me 58 Apache with a 235. From what I was told by the previous owner, the 235 was a good running engine that sat for 15 years in a dry heated garage. He bolted it in the 58 and but never completed the rest of the install and therefore never started it up. I recently purchased the truck completed the 235 install and got it to fire up today. It starts and runs but is making a knocking noise that I don't feel sounds good. I do not have the exhaust hooked up yet so I am wondering if that has something to do with it. I have a video of it here:

http://s824.photobucket.com/user/keenebolter/media/58%20Apache/Video_zpslflnottw.mp4.html

Though I was able to get the thing running I do not have alot of engine experience and was hoping those that do might be able to listen to the engine in the video and give me some guidance as to what could be making the noise and how to go about fixing it. I have my fingers crossed that its a simple fix.... Thanks in advance for any help!

There are a lot of guys more qualified than I am, and I am sure they will reply. But I will get it started.

Sounds like a valve train noise, as opposed to a bottom end. Could be a valve sticking. How's the oil pressure? Maybe some Marvel Mystery Oil will hope loosed things up. Wait for others to reply, but I would be inclined to let it get up to operating temp and see if it works itself out.

Hi Keenebolter, as a diesel mechanic I have come across many situations where and individual might conclude the worse. The noise on your video could be something going on with a piston or valve. But before taking anything apart I would do a visual to see if something simple might be creating a noise(fan or belt). My next step might be removing the rocker cover and bar the engine by hand going through the firing order and checking the valve clearances. Maybe something is incorrect and a piston is striking a valve. But the noise could be coming from something lower in the engine caused by a con rod issue or main bearing issue. You may have to take the head off to look for some indication of a piston in need of help. A problem can be caused by the something one might not expect. A friend had a 235 rebuilt and after he installed in we found it was hard to turn over by hand. In the end it was a welded joint on the bell housing which caused the tranny to bind because it was not mated true to the housing. A little bit of filing and the problem solved. Hopefully your solution will be and easy one, good luck

VEW, thanks for the reply. I'll hold out for more from others too.

I changed the oil and 1 quart of the new stuff is marvel mystery oil. I removed plugs and squirted some MM oil in each cylinder and then turned it over by hand before trying to start it. I have not run it more than a minute or two as I was concerned with the noise and didn't want to damage anything without hearing some advice first. I'm hoping that it's something that will works it way out. I'm interested in what others think as well.

Best advise I can offer is get some exhaust on it before you do anything else.

That noise is not a hard knock like you would get from a bearing. To me it sounds like a pushrod bouncing around. Putting an exhaust on will let you hear all the noises in better detail.

Thanks for the input thus far everyone! I was able to band-aid together some exhaust for the truck, its much quieter now. Here is a new video with exhaust installed that might be more helpful for those who know what to listen for.

http://s824.photobucket.com/user/keenebolter/media/58%20Apache/Video2_zpsa3m21yox.mp4.html

I moved around the engine compartment trying to see if I could find a place were the noise was louder. I think the knock is stronger sounding from the passenger side. I looked around for something obvious loose or hitting but didn't see anything. So maybe the next step is to take off the valve cover or the side lifter cover and see if there is anything not moving or binding there? Thanks for the help!

That sounds a little tinny. Pull the rocker cover while running, and see if not working smoothly. Does the knock increase with the RPM?

Put a screw driver to your ear and the valve cover. Might single out which rocker it is. Watch your clothing on the fan and belts. Best of luck to ya
Or a piece of wood.

I'd start by pulling one plug wire at a time with it running. See if you can isolate it to one cylinder. Might also want to put your hand on the fuel pump as see if you can feel it pounding.

Stop jumping around like a flamenco dancer and start doing some logical diagnosis.

1. What is the oil pressure?
2. Are the valves adjusted properly?
3. Get a semi-quiet exhaust installed so you're not trying to listen around exhaust noises.
4. Remove the fan belt and run it for a SHORT time (no water circulation) to see if the noise changes or stops with the water pump and generator not turning.
5. Use a broomstick or a stethoscope to try to isolate the location of the noise.
6. Have someond hold the clutch pedal down with the transmission in gear to see if the noise changes or goes away with the transmission input shaft not turning.

When you can give us specific answers to all these questions, somebody can probably point you in the right direction. Until then, everything you're being told is just a S.W.A.G.

Jerry

MikeE- I agree, it sounds tinny and yes the sound speeds up with RPMs.

I didn't install the engine, clutch and transmission in the truck. From what I understand the previous owner removed a 350 from the truck and installed this 235 from a 59. According to him the 235 was a good running engine that he saw run before it was taken out of a 59 and put into this 58. The thing is the engine sat for 15 years in the process of him doing the swap. It had not run all that time till today. I find it hard to believe something broke internally while the engine sat. I tend to think something is not lubricated and is binding or something got assembled incorrectly. I'm wondering if there Is something clutch/ flywheel area that perhaps got assembled wrong that could be hitting?

I'll try the wood stick and or the tubing thing tomorrow and see if I can pinpoint the knocking location that way.

Thanks folks!

Did you put anything In the cylinders and turn it over by hand before crankin it up?

Hot darn, I was wondering when Lincoln would chime in!

Like Jerry says use a broom handle (stick). I remember my auto shop teacher showing us that trick when I was 15 years old. And that was 50 years ago.

Brian

I don't get any credit shaker? I see how it is man... Just kidding.

Hey Hollow not to be disrespectful, screw driver will work, it's that a broom handle is a little longer and easier to work with. The point I was trying to make was it's an old trick that works.

Brian

I was just being a goofball. As long as the op gets help, that's all I care about.

I like the listening stick concept,I sometimes use 3/8 extensions. What H/R says sounds like a logical approach. Insure you have oil pressure and then listen to all the externals, fuel pump, water pump and do the clutch trick. Watching the valve train while running will tell you if everything is getting oil on the top and you can check your clearances quickly. My shot in the dark diagnosis is that something is banging on a cover, either valve or side cover. I don't know how this could happen, but you never know wht you are going to find. I don't know the answer to this but could a wrong sized valve cover be the problem? Is that even possible?

Once again Hot Rod gets to the core issues. Valve cover is so easy to pull I just take it off when starting any engine that has set. Turn by hand and look. You would be amazed what you can see. Friend had hit his started just to bump engine around to set timing, now he has a bent push rod. One sticky valve was all it took. The valve is fine, a little oil and some tapping with a plastic mallet, and it was good to go. The push rod? Toast. With mechanical gauge, oil pressure can be tested with the dizzy out and an old big blade screw driver in a drill. Lets you see it come up to the rockers as well. Pull the plugs. Look at them. You put oil in the cylinders, good. Now do things logically. Turn it by hand. Look. I would bet you see the issue. If you see something not right. Then take action. Not too hard to put plugs back in. Not hard to adjust valves. No too hard to put the dizzy back in. Not too hard to time. Breaking some thing sucks. I know I have done it. We all have I would bet. Lots of smart people here. ask and see what they have to say. There are NO Dumb questions.

I think if it was the wrong height valve cover it would sound lot noisier as all the rockers might come in to contact with it.

Well, I laced up my flamenco dancing shoes and headed out to the garage today. Here is the scoop of what I found:
1. Unknown oil pressure as I don't have the correct parts to hook up the pressure gauge. I'll have to order them. I think I have oil circulating as the fresh oil I just put in is dirtier now than new. Also I loosened the cover to the oil filter while the truck was running and oil quickly started flowing out.
2. I removed the valve cover and spark plugs and rotated the engine by hand. I watched all valves open and close and I checked to see if all push rods would twist and wiggle just a bit while the valves were closed. They all had similar movement and tolerances to each other.
3. Exhaust with muffler installed. Engine much quieter.
4. Removed belt to isolate the pump and generator and ran with no change in knocking sound.
5. Used broomstick to try and isolate sound. I feel like I get the loudest sound while touch it against the oil pan.
6. Pushed in the clutch and watched to see output of transmission stop spinning. No change in noise.

I also pulled back the side lifting rod cover and listened for a change in sound but nothing. I think the sound is coming from the oil pan. With the engine off, I tapped on the bottom of the oil pan and I get a very similar tinny knock sound. I tried turning the engine by hand with the spark plugs out trying to reproduce the knock but it doesn't seem to happen. I need to get a helper to turn the engine for me while I lay under the truck and listen. Hopefully I can make that happen this week sometime. I did notice the bottom of the oil pan is pressed in the slightest bit...almost like when a square tin can puckers in a bit. I don't know how tight the tolerences are behind the oil pan, maybe enough for something to rub? I guess I should probably drop the pan next and see what going on there. Any other ideas before I head that direction? Thanks for all the help everyone, it is very much appreciated!

I got the oil gauge hooked up today, pressure is at 30 at idle and goes up just a bit past 30 with higher RPMs. I removed the fuel pump and ran it for a bit with no change to the knock.

Might want to pull the dust cover off the bellhousing and check things out, look close for metal shavings inside bellhousing. Might be time to drop the pan for a look, at the least I'd get a good clean drain pan and dump the oil and look for signs of metal.

Sounds like you will be pulling the pan soon. If it's the culprit there will be marks on the inside. Good luck.

After reading everything, I think I agree with don stocker. Maybe your flywheel/pressure plate has a loose bolt.

Can I reach the flywheel bolts without taking out the pressure plate and clutch? I suspect the previous owner may have missed something in his assembly of the clutch and transmission as he worked periodically on the truck over many years. Seems like a good way of losing track of what you did and forgetting something. I took off the dust cover and found no shaving or anything suspicious there. I looked up in the bell housing and did not see anything obvious. Could a loose bolt make this kind of noise or would it have to be backed out and hitting something?

I guess my next steps are:
1. Pull one wire at a time while running and see what I get ( I forgot about this one till now that I reread everything again)
2. Remove the trans floor pan and listen to see if I can get a better idea if its flywheel related. There looks like a little door on top of the bell housing, maybe that will help see something. With the bottom dust cover on, If I take the small top door off the bell housing and the sound increases then that's the problem area.
3. Drop oil pan and see what there is to see.
4. Remove timing gear cover and see if the fiber gears are good.

1. no

2. yes, possibly

3. yes, possibly

4. (wait to hear from other posters/members)
1. OK - not much effort needed.
2. OK - not much effort needed; however, not much to see from that "vantage point"
3. ???
4. ??? Do you know if there is a fiber/composite or metal cam gear?

If there are no signs of metal shavings inside the bellhousing the chances of it being the source of the noise is almost none in my opinion. As I mentioned earlier, I would get a clean drain pan and dump the oil and see if you have metal shavings. I think you probably will. If you keep running it and fiddling around your just going to wreck something. Its your truck so have at it.

Some 235's with solid lifters that I've seen knocked like crazy...and it ended up being the valve lash...something to consider. Sorry if I'm missing something here. TJ

Getting the timing cover off will be a challenge, since the harmonic balancer is pressed on and there are two timing cover bolts that are only accessible by removing the oil pan. Back when main bearings were shim-adjustable, those two bolts that went through the front main bearing cap were much easier to get to from the back side. When Chevy went to non-adjustable mains, they didn't change the bolt arrangement. Very little can go wrong with the timing gears that doesn't stop the engine dead in its tracks.
Jerry

Hi,KeeneBolter! You say that you hear the noise,(with "stethoscope"),coming from the oil pan? Then,I'd drain the oil,look for shavings,and drop the pan. It's really a simple procedure. It's a good thing to do,anyway,with an engine that's been sitting for several years. If the P.O. didn't grease the crank and bearings,during engine assembly,condensation could form between the crank and journals,causing rust/pre-mature wear, to one or more bearings. The more you start and run your engine,the more wear you're causing. Once you drop your pan,check every bearing for wear/scoring. Use a plasti-gauge to check clearances. When re-installing bearing caps,make sure to torque cap bolts to required spec's. Make sure your oil pump is functioning properly,and the pick-up screen is clean. If bottom of pan has sludge,check for metal shavings. Wipe pan out,and clean and rinse with gasoline. Let it dry thoroughly. I prefer a cork gasket,for oil pans. i Permatex the gasket to the block,and i use "Vasoline" on the pan. That way,I save the gasket,if I need to drop the pan in the future. Hope this helps. GOOD LUCK!!

Well, I think I found the problem! I dropped the oil pan tonight. No obvious signs of metal shavings or mechanical damage. The oil pan is full of sludge and very hard to see through. I shined a super bright flash light at the inside of the pan and saw a bright spot shining back. Long story short, the bottom of the oil pan was pressed in enough that it was rubbing on the crank shaft. Also there was no cork gasket just silicon so the pan was sitting a bit higher which didn't help. Here's the pics:

http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz166/keenebolter/58%20Apache/image2_zpsb909bfd6.jpg

http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz166/keenebolter/58%20Apache/image1_zps70702e2e.jpg

So now that the pan is out I see that its full of sludge which I will obviously clean out but what else should I do while the pan is down? Is there an easy way to clean the black gunk off the inside of the engine? Should I take apart the oil pump and clean out the metal lines? I'd like to get as much sludge out of this thing as possible and clean it up a bit.

Thanks everyone for the help and suggestions. That broomstick idea led me to the problem!

Good find. That pan must be dented/pressed in pretty good. Can you post a pic of it? I'm curious to see how dented it is.
A new gasket won't push it down enough to clear those rod bolts based on how deep that scratch is.

While you've got the pan off, drop and cleanout the screen in the oil pickup tube.
If you really feel motivated you could plasti-gauge the main and rod bearings to get a good idea on how wore they are.
If not try and move the rods side to side, there should be very little side play.
Give everything a good look over and cleanout all the gunk/sludge you can get to.

Good luck
Dave

Good detective work! I see you're dealing with a late model 235 without the dippers on the bottom of the rods, so the pan should be pretty open. Earlier engines had a trough under each rod for the dipper to dunk into. Scrape out as much crud as you can from the oil pan then grab a stiff-bristled parts washing brush and some solvent like kerosene, mineral spirits, or one of the water-soluble cleaners, and give toe pan a good scrubbing, inside and out. Follow up with a pressure washer or take a trip to the local coin car wash for a pressure blast with the tire cleaner/engine degreaser. Some car wash managers frown on this so I usually do my engine block and cylinder head cleanup LATE at night!

There's a really good way to use the engine itself as a degreaser for the crankcase- - - -after reinstalling the pan, fill the engine with cheap 30 weight oil, and add 2-3 quarts of kerosene or Diesel fuel over the full mark so the crankshaft is whipping into the oil/solvent mixture. Run the engine at a fast idle, maybe 1,000-1,200 RPM for about 10 minutes.

DO NOT DRIVE THE VEHICLE OR PUT ANY LOAD ON THE ENGINE!

The crankshaft will do an excellent job of splashing the solvent around, and if you drain the crankcase while the mixture is hot, the sludge will drain out with the oil. Refill with your usual engine oil, change the filter cartridge, and drive on!
Jerry

Thanks again guys for the help and the new cleaning tips. I can't wait to get this old truck on the road!

Here are a couple pics of the bend in the oil pan for those who were interested. It's not much really.

http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz166/keenebolter/58%20Apache/pan2_zpsb5a418b0.jpg

http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz166/keenebolter/58%20Apache/pan1_zpsfa99df03.jpg

Since you have the pan off,I'd "Plastigauge" all the rod bearings/caps. It doesn't take long,and insures miles of trouble-free operation,no guesswork.

Hi Keenebolter, I'm glad to hear that you have and easy fix. That was a good point someone made about checking the end play of each con rod. Something I learned years ago that to install a dial guage on the vibration damper, this way you would check crank end play with each piston installation. A bent rod can be suspect if there is no crank end play. You can use something like a big screw driver or pry bar to move the crank back and forth. If you don't remove any con rod or main caps at least check the torque for each. You can also see the condition of the cylinder walls to see if you have any cross hatch left from the last honing. This may sound like a lot of work but for myself being at your stage with the pan off I would consider removing the head along with pistons to hone the cylinder walls. You would be able to see if you have a ridge which could be removed before honing. I know this sounds extreme but I've seen cases where a couple of years down the road the guy is pushing blue. With the pan off you have access to the con rod bolts that allow you to have more fun and know your engine's condition. Just food for thought. I did my apprenticeship in a diesel engine shop so none of this intimidates.

Well, Wetwilly and Blanch53, I appreciate your advice. I have to say that taking the engine that far apart would make me a bit nervous with my current mechanic skill set. I agree it would be fun, but I tend to have a "if it ain't broke, dont fix it" attitude and I think I could do more damage than good. I have yet to put things back together as the temps have been in the single digits lately so I could still check torque on con rod and main caps when it warms up a bit. I assume that procedure is in the manual. I did check side play of con rods by hand...all seemed similar to each other with almost no movement.