The Stovebolt.com Forums Home | Tech Tips | Gallery | FAQ | Events | Features | Search
Help is a click away!

VEHICLE
INFORMATION
KITS


at the

GM Heritage Center
All the details are here.

Searching the Site - a click away
click here to search
New here ??? Where to start?
Click on image for the lowdown. Where do I go around here?
====
Who's Online Now
5 members (Shade Baby, 69Cuda, JoergK., WICruiser, 1 invisible), 146 guests, and 1 robot.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums66
Topics128,175
Posts1,057,053
Members48,460
Most Online14,466
Apr 26th, 2026
Step-by-step instructions for pictures in the forums
Brad Allen's photos

AD Chevy Trucks

Pictures galore
Over 6,000 pictures

Brad Allen has an awesome collection of Chevrolet factory pictures that he has set up from film strips.

Check them out!

Lots of work on Brad's part ... pure enjoyment (and references) for you!

Big Thanks!

THANKS!

For helping keep this great
old truck web site
on the Internet for

over 30 years!

and not clogged down
with Ads!


Again, thanks!

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
L
Shop Shark
Shop Shark
L Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
I saw a rack and pinion kit for a straight axle AD truck at performanceonline.com. This was odd to me because I had always heard that rack and pinion on a straight axle was unsafe. After looking at the kit online, it is an interesting setup.

The rack bolts onto the axle, it appears to be a rear steer configuration. The kit includes a telescoping steering shaft.

I am interested in what others think about this, please comment.

Thank You
Tim


'53 3100 5-window
'57 Mercury Monterey 2-Door Sedan
Tim H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 8,351
L
'Bolter
'Bolter
L Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 8,351
I've seen one installed on a '56 F100, very Mickey Mouse. I would not suggest going that route, not only do you have to deal with a questionable steering column that has to telescope and flex with the suspension, it will also add unsprung weight to the axle, which will add to handling and ride quality issues.


Bill Burmeister
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 29,868
H
Kettle Custodian (pot stirrer)
Kettle Custodian (pot stirrer)
H Offline
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 29,868
Buy plenty of life insurance before you install that system!
Jerry


"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln
Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway
Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 12,029
F
Cruising in the Passing Lane
Cruising in the Passing Lane
F Offline
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 12,029
Originally Posted by Hotrod Lincoln
Buy plenty of life insurance before you install that system!
Jerry
lots of liability insurance might be better [for us]

Bill


Moved over to the Passing Lane

"When we tug a single thing in nature, we find it attached to the rest of the world" ~ John Muir
"When we tug a single thing on an old truck, we find it falls off" ~ me
Some TF series details & TF heater pics
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
L
Shop Shark
Shop Shark
L Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
I read some prior discussions here on the stovebolt forum before posting this yesterday. It seems many jump in and predict a horrible death from R&P on a straight axle, but the reasons why are not discussed. I would like to understand the "why".

So far, there have been three negative items mentioned...

1) He saw one on a truck that was done "Mickey Mouse". I have seen some IFS jobs on vintage trucks that could be described the same way. Do it right or don't do it.

2) "questionable steering column that has to telescope and flex with the suspension" To me, this is the major drawback to R&P on a straight axle. The rack has to be mounted on the axle for it to work, so the steering shaft has to be able to move with the axle. But it's not something that I feel cannot be worked out to be reliable and safe. There are drivelines on all sorts of agricultural equipment that telescope and flex while running at 540rpm all day every day...as long as it is kept greased.

3) "add unsprung weight to the axle" So you remove the tie rod and add a rack. Considering the total weight of tires, rims, rotors, calipers, axle...is the net increase in unsprung weight really that much?

I am curious what others thing about this. Please jump in.

Tim



'53 3100 5-window
'57 Mercury Monterey 2-Door Sedan
Tim H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 8,351
L
'Bolter
'Bolter
L Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 8,351
Originally Posted by lynngrove
I read some prior discussions here on the stovebolt forum before posting this yesterday. It seems many jump in and predict a horrible death from R&P on a straight axle, but the reasons why are not discussed. I would like to understand the "why".

So far, there have been three negative items mentioned...

1) He saw one on a truck that was done "Mickey Mouse". I have seen some IFS jobs on vintage trucks that could be described the same way. Do it right or don't do it.
OK, you do have a point there. The truck I saw was definitely done with an aftermarket kit. Even then, the whole thing looked very shakey to me at best.

2) "questionable steering column that has to telescope and flex with the suspension" To me, this is the major drawback to R&P on a straight axle. The rack has to be mounted on the axle for it to work, so the steering shaft has to be able to move with the axle. But it's not something that I feel cannot be worked out to be reliable and safe. There are drivelines on all sorts of agricultural equipment that telescope and flex while running at 540rpm all day every day...as long as it is kept greased.
Big difference between a driveshaft and a steering shaft. Loose the driveshaft, you only loose power to whatever is being driven. Loose a steering shaft, you loose all directional control. Also, a beam axle not only flexes up and down, but there is also some side to side motion. Having the steering gear mounted to the axle rather than solid to the frame will lead to bump steer issues because of that flex.

3) "add unsprung weight to the axle" So you remove the tie rod and add a rack. Considering the total weight of tires, rims, rotors, calipers, axle...is the net increase in unsprung weight really that much?
The weight of the brakes, tires, wheels, and axle are all figured in when the suspension was originally designed. The tie rod on these trucks maybe weighs a few pounds. A typical rack and pinion weighs somewhere around 50-80 pounds, depending on whether it is power assist or not. Adding that much weight to the axle as unsprung weight will affect the handling and ride, that's why none of the oem manufacturers mount the steering gear that way, that does apply to larger wheels/tires, heavier brakes, etc.
I am curious what others thing about this. Please jump in.

Tim


Bill Burmeister
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 206
T
Shop Shark
Shop Shark
T Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 206
My reasons for not are as follows

Why??? whats it gaining you. It doesn't get rid of bumper steer it may well add bump steer into the front end that you didn't have before.

The sliding shaft is going to send a lot of shock and vibrations up the shaft and into your hands now that its location is un-sprung and has no shock suppression. Hit a bump and its tire and what ever little absorption the slide joint offers then your hands.



Dave Chapman
The Hollister Road Company
713-937-0387
[email protected]
www.hollisterroad.com
www.thoroco.com
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 29,868
H
Kettle Custodian (pot stirrer)
Kettle Custodian (pot stirrer)
H Offline
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 29,868
The relatively short telescoping shaft with a U joint on both ends will have a bad habit of binding at certain angles, particularly if oddball terrain is encountered. The movement of the axle, the springs, and maybe a little frame flex added in can cause the steering column shaft to get into an angular bind sufficient to lock the steering wheel at a deadly dangerous moment. Since the rack and axle move as a unit, bump steer won't be a problem, but the geometry of the telescoping shaft will be unpredictable and dangerous.

BTW, I have run telescoping PTO shafts on my farm equipment for 30-something years, and your argument comparing them to a steering column shaft is totally bogus. There is virtually no comparison since the operating angles are very shallow on PTO equipment and the shaft length is many times what a steering pinion shaft would be.
Jerry


"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln
Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway
Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
L
Shop Shark
Shop Shark
L Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
Originally Posted by thoroco
My reasons for not are as follows

Why??? whats it gaining you. It doesn't get rid of bumper steer it may well add bump steer into the front end that you didn't have before.

The sliding shaft is going to send a lot of shock and vibrations up the shaft and into your hands now that its location is un-sprung and has no shock suppression. Hit a bump and its tire and what ever little absorption the slide joint offers then your hands.


Since the rack is on the axle, and moves with the axle, there should not be any bumpsteer.

Your point about bumps in the road being transmitted up the steering shaft to the steering wheel seems like a definite negative. No matter how smooth the telescopic action of the steering shaft works, there is still going to be vibration transmitted.


'53 3100 5-window
'57 Mercury Monterey 2-Door Sedan
Tim H
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
L
Shop Shark
Shop Shark
L Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
Originally Posted by Hotrod Lincoln
The relatively short telescoping shaft with a U joint on both ends will have a bad habit of binding at certain angles, particularly if oddball terrain is encountered. The movement of the axle, the springs, and maybe a little frame flex added in can cause the steering column shaft to get into an angular bind sufficient to lock the steering wheel at a deadly dangerous moment. Since the rack and axle move as a unit, bump steer won't be a problem, but the geometry of the telescoping shaft will be unpredictable and dangerous.


If set up correctly to account for the range of angles and distance of telescoping action of operation, there is no reason why the shaft would not be totally reliable and safe. If done poorly, yes, it certainly could be unpredictable and dangerous.

Originally Posted by Hotrod Lincoln
BTW, I have run telescoping PTO shafts on my farm equipment for 30-something years, and your argument comparing them to a steering column shaft is totally bogus. There is virtually no comparison since the operating angles are very shallow on PTO equipment and the shaft length is many times what a steering pinion shaft would be.
Jerry


I disagree. Agricultural drivelines operate at constantly changing (going over terrain much similar to what the truck suspension would encounter) and at times near the limits of their angles of operation (while turning corners).

The length of the steering shaft is not relevant as long as the shaft is of sufficient length to travel freely over the minimum and maximum possible telescopic lengths without bottoming out...and the U-joints are correctly placed and have the capacity to handle the range of angles required. Again, poor design would produce disaster. Good design would be totally workable.

Please don't misunderstand, I am NOT promoting the use of rack and pinion on a straight axle, NOR am I going to use it on my truck. I find it an interesting subject and am interested in what others think and WHY. A lot of people seem to say "this is dangerous" or "that is dangerous" without being able to discuss the WHY...so I appreciate others who are will to offer their thoughts on the subject.



'53 3100 5-window
'57 Mercury Monterey 2-Door Sedan
Tim H
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 29,868
H
Kettle Custodian (pot stirrer)
Kettle Custodian (pot stirrer)
H Offline
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 29,868
Just keep it theoretical, please. Building one to actually run on the street will be deadly dangerous to yourself and the rest of us who have to share the road with you. 50-something years of being closely involved with dirt track race car building has taught me that there are plenty of people with great plans on paper who should not be given access to the tools to try to make their pipe dreams a reality. At least on the race track, everybody is aware of the risks, and we take our chances willingly. The innocent drivers and/or pedestrians that are put at risk on the public roads by incompetent metal butchers don't deserve to be put in that sort of danger.
Jerry


"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln
Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway
Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 96
5
Shop Shark
Shop Shark
5 Offline
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 96
the real problem is the pinon gear wont stay stationary relative to the steering column not only do yo have to deal with it moving vertically at the same time it can be twisting.
very nasty bump steer

PTO shafts only move in one plane.

straight front axle move a point moves in more then one plane

Last edited by 513600; 12/10/2014 8:58 PM.
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 8,351
L
'Bolter
'Bolter
L Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 8,351
That was what I meant when I said "bump steer" as well. It's really not the correct term for that, but it just seemed to describe it the best.


Bill Burmeister
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,544
D
Shop Shark
Shop Shark
D Offline
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,544
What is the reason or advantage to put a rack and pinion steering on a straight axle vehicle?

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
L
Shop Shark
Shop Shark
L Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
Originally Posted by Hotrod Lincoln
Just keep it theoretical, please. Building one to actually run on the street will be deadly dangerous to yourself and the rest of us who have to share the road with you. 50-something years of being closely involved with dirt track race car building has taught me that there are plenty of people with great plans on paper who should not be given access to the tools to try to make their pipe dreams a reality. At least on the race track, everybody is aware of the risks, and we take our chances willingly. The innocent drivers and/or pedestrians that are put at risk on the public roads by incompetent metal butchers don't deserve to be put in that sort of danger.
Jerry


OMG! It's going to kill everyone old enough to die! LOL

Seriously though, I'm not going to do it to my '53. I am still considering options for front suspension and steering, but rest assured it will not be a rack on a straight axle.

Feel better now? grin


'53 3100 5-window
'57 Mercury Monterey 2-Door Sedan
Tim H
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
L
Shop Shark
Shop Shark
L Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
Originally Posted by 513600
the real problem is the pinon gear wont stay stationary relative to the steering column not only do yo have to deal with it moving vertically at the same time it can be twisting.
very nasty bump steer

PTO shafts only move in one plane.

straight front axle move a point moves in more then one plane


I don't know how much twisting of the steering shaft would take place as a result of suspension movement...I do believe there would be a noticeable amount of vibration transmitted up the steering shaft to the driver.

PTO drives on Ag equipment do move on all planes. Along with the side to side from turns, there is also a constant up and down and twisting as the tractor and implement travel over uneven ground.


'53 3100 5-window
'57 Mercury Monterey 2-Door Sedan
Tim H
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
L
Shop Shark
Shop Shark
L Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
Originally Posted by don stocker
What is the reason or advantage to put a rack and pinion steering on a straight axle vehicle?


Don, you win the award for question of the day! Congratulations!

That was one of my first thoughts when I saw the straight axle rack kit for sale...WHY? I had always heard they would kill you and everyone nearby...so what would be the reason or advantage in actually doing it when other proven safer steering options are available?

My purpose in this thread was just to discuss in theory and hear what others thought about it.

Thank you for asking the question of the day!


'53 3100 5-window
'57 Mercury Monterey 2-Door Sedan
Tim H
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 8,351
L
'Bolter
'Bolter
L Offline
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 8,351
There is no advantage, other than perhaps to be able to claim that the steering has been "updated".


Bill Burmeister
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 223
J
'Bolter
'Bolter
J Offline
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 223
I like it, and as said NO bump steer like other conversions. as for the steering coupling there isn't that much movement 3-4 in up and down. I have a mustang 2 conversion on a 53 2dr sedan, the kit came with double D shaft and u-joints that are held on by set screws. not exactly and engineering master piece and it doesn't drive any better or as good as the stock 53 did.
Jay D.

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 29,270
Bubba - Curmudgeon
Bubba - Curmudgeon
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 29,270
Quote
I like it, and as said NO bump steer like other conversions.
"This kit includes new steering arms to help correct accerman[sic] and reduce bump steer."

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 29,868
H
Kettle Custodian (pot stirrer)
Kettle Custodian (pot stirrer)
H Offline
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 29,868
Originally Posted by tclederman
"This kit includes new steering arms to help correct accerman[sic] and reduce bump steer."

How do the kit parts address Ackerman without exact measurements from the specific vehicle involved- - - -wheelbase, track width, and number of degrees of turn available lock-to-lock? All these dimensions are necessary for each specific vehicle before "Ackerman" makes any sense at all. Any claim like that made by a kit manufacturer makes me suspect their whole sales pitch is Bovine Scatology.
Jerry


"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln
Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway
Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 29,270
Bubba - Curmudgeon
Bubba - Curmudgeon
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 29,270

I think that lynngrove has gotten an answer to his question in the original post.

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
L
Shop Shark
Shop Shark
L Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 136
My neighbor had an observation about the rack & pinion kits for straight axles. He said, "that's a heck of a deal, they take a $175 rack, put some little $25 brackets on it and sell it for $600."

I laughed out loud.

Then he said, "they sell just about anything you can bolt onto anything, but it don't mean it's a good thing to do."

He has a point.


'53 3100 5-window
'57 Mercury Monterey 2-Door Sedan
Tim H
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 29,868
H
Kettle Custodian (pot stirrer)
Kettle Custodian (pot stirrer)
H Offline
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 29,868
P.T. Barnum is alive and well- - - - -and he's selling parts for old trucks!
thumbs_up
Jerry


"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln
Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt!
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway
Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!

Moderated by  Dusty53, SWEET 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Home | FAQ | Gallery | Tech Tips | Events | Features | Search | Hoo-Ya Shop
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0