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I took some of the advise from this forum and got two of the C/W carbs for my '51 Chevy with a '58 235 motor. First let me say the only problems I was having with the two Rochesters was mileage, other than that it was fine with several 1,000 mile round trips.
Well, I got them installed today and at first it would not even crank. The electric chokes killed the ignition. Unhooked the chokes and propped them open, 75 degrees here today, and it cranked up but would not run below 1,500 RPM. No idle at all. I fooled with them a while and then just had to walk away. Can't find any idle air screws or any adjustments outside other than the fast idle screws.
Any advise greatly appreciated or they may go back in the box and the dreaded Rochester "B"'s will go back on.

Oh no! I'm plumbing mine today. I'll be watching this post for ideas. Are you sure you don't have a vacuum leak somewhere? What did the chokes do to 'kill' the ignition? Where did you get your 12 volts?

I just put c/w's on my 235... let us know how everything turns out.

shawn

Ok; my c/w's are on. I just started it. I need to adjust the idle but it seems ok. My intake heater (hot water) leaks like a seive. I've given up for today. I'll see what I have tomorrow.

Well, don't know about the chokes but the next time I tried it they worked, but it cranked at 3,000 rpm. That won't work. I'll put one on a switch and delete the other.
The linkage seemed to be at a bad angle as supplied so I made new brackets and mounted it to the adapters at the manifold studs, seems to work much better there. Had the cut down the nuts, thinner, to get clearance but no big deal.
Another new set of brackets would mount it to the unused holes in the adapters and that would isolate it from thhe carbs completely so the carbs or the linkage could be removed without interfering with the other.
Still can't get the idle to hold. Can set at about 400 or so and then come back later and it cranks at 1,000 or so. Not sure why.
Will keep after it but what should have been a two hour job is now into three days.

Jerry, did you have any problems with the linkage or with the chokes or with the idle? When I installed the linkage as supplied and by the picture supplied I only had about half the gas pedal travel that I had before so the carbs would not open all the way. I had to redrill the main arm to get full travel. The relocation of the brackets seems to cure all the problems with the linkage.

I scratched my head a lot but I got the linkage together without having to modify anything. I sure thought about it a few times though. It seems to be fine.

I still don't have it idling right. Mine's not idling fast enough. I haven't played with it much though. I spent most of the day Sunday fighting my water leak issue. I had to leave it alone while the RTV cured over night. I'll be getting after it in awhile.

Part of my problem is that one of my friends dinked with the timing while we were fighting the Rochesters. I need to get the truck warmed up so I can adjust the timing. Then I'll go after the idle.

I'll let you know what I finally find.

Jerry

any updates?

Well; I'm not done yet. It starts. The fast idle is to fast. I have to figure out how to adjust that. She won't idle with the fast idle cam off until she warms up and then she seems to run fine. I fixed the water leak over the weekend but then found a fuel leak so I had to re-work some of the plumbing. (Teflon tape doesn't seem to work for fuel so I had to go to a taper fitting.) She's together now (I think) but I still have a timing issue.

Someone before I got the truck got the distributor setup wrong. She's not setup to time off of the #1 cylinder. I think it's 5 but I don't remember. I think at this point I'm going to pull the stock distributor and install my new HEI distributor. I may as well solve this problem now.

I think the heat to the intake is also part of the problem. She seems cold-blooded. I'm using Langdon's water heating system. It seems like heat isn't getting there fast enough. I wonder if exhaust heat is a better solution. I've been talking to people about possibly installing an EGR valve between the header and intake. What do you think?

I'm also working on the shifter lever. It's been freezing up where the lever transitions to the shaft. I thought it may be the shifter box but I took that apart; cleaned it up, and put it back together. It was fine. I've now disassembled the upper piece and I'm trying to decide if I want to paint the steering column before putting it back together.

This thing is like Pandora's Box. Every time I open something a bunch of other stuff jump out. It's amazing how much work a 18,000 48 year old truck needs.

Later,

Jerry

I've heard a lot of horror stories about water heated intakes so I decided to stick with the stock manifold for now. I plan to eventually have the original exhaust manifold split for duals.
Have you called Tom Langdon yet? Make sure you set an hour or two of your day aside because he will talk your ear off.

As soon as I install my new gas tank and finish rewiring my generator harness I'll be ready to start her up.

Have you heard of anyone else having problems with the intitial adjustment of c/ws?

Hang in there and good luck!!

Hey Trapper; how's your project going?

Hey again gang, sorry had to take a quick road trip. Talked to Tom on Tuesday, he admitted the linkage as supplied would not work on my application. He said he supplied enough rod ends to cut and thread my original verticle rod and lenghten it. TOM, I'm not a mind reader, some instructions would have been nice, would have saved two days of fabricating on this end. Still no word on the chokes and how to set them.
The main arm on his linkage will not reach my verticle rod without pointing straight down and that won't work. I made a plate, about 2 inches by 1 inch, that bolts to the arm at about a 7 o'clock position and that is then long enough to reach the verticle rod. My application is not that weird. A '58 truck motor in a '51 2 door sedan. All the old Offy linkage worked fine and nothing had to be "made" to work. More later as I get back to it this weekend. What should have been a two hour job is now into a week. So much for buying a "complete" kit from one source.

Trapper,

Is there anyway you could post photos? I put my C/w's on 1957 235 in a '57 belair without any problems. Well, actually I had a hell of a time until my big brother came out to straighten things up. I was disappointed with the lack of instructions as well. All I got was a 2-1/2" by 2" photo which supposedly illustrated how the linkage was to be assembled. I wish I had a digital camera... I would post some pics.

Ha, that's the same print out photo that I got and it's not even the correct carb. I've bought from Tom before but this time it was a disaster. If and when I get it all together, not there yet, I'll try to post some pics. There were no instructions at all which is not necessarily a bad thing if you are inside Tom's head. Like the location of the idle air screw and how to set the fast idle on the chokes. I have the screws removed from the chokes right now.

Lol

When you get all of that figured out you should print out your own instructions and sell them on ebay. I'd bid on it. Have you looked up info for the c/w's by crossreferencing with 1983 ford escort c/w sources? Hopefully, I'll be jumping into the crapheap with you in the next few days. Your post have me a bit nervous

Lessons learned so far:

1. Water heat doesn't seem to heat fast enough. Engine is cold-blooded. Runs fine when warmed to operating temperature.
2. Use taper fittings for fuel. Standard fittings with teflon tape leak. Do not use compression fittings.
3. I tried to use paper gasket on heat plate on bottom of intake. Leaked like a seive. I used gold RTV and let it set up for 24 hours. Seems to be ok.
4. Chokes idle too fast. I still need to adjust. I also noticed that if I touch the pedal, the fast idle turns off and it idles too slow to keep it lit. Still some work to be done here.

Jerry

What's wrong with using compression fittings? Do they leak?

I couldn't get my compression fittings tight enough to keep from leaking. I even broke a couple because I over-tightened them.

I've never had any problems using them before. Maybe it's the type of line/tubing you are using?

I am using teflon tape on standard 1/8 pipe thread into the carbs and they are not even tight and they don't leak. I'm using a Holley dual feed fuel line instead of a fuel block to feed both carbs, same as I had on the two Rochesters. I still don't have the main arm bracket just right but I'm getting closer. This is nuts to have to pay the price for the linkage and then have to fabricate all these other brackets just to get the thing to work. Originally the Rochesters were plumbed with copper tubing and compression fittings and they never leaked either. I have success with both methods.

Copper is a good choice with compression fittings because it is more malleable(sp). Steel line is a bit of a challenge when used with compression fittings.

I don't understand what problems you guys are having on the linkage. Other than making the vertical rod from the bellcrank up (a no-brainer) I didn't have to do anything different. If you were attempting to use or modify the Offy brand linkage then yes, I can see the problem but the stuff I bought fron Langdon was simple and straight-forward. What's the problem?

Something I'd like to know from those who use the water heated manifold is how you went about the return line from the manifold plate. Did you dump it into a heater hose or what? That seems easy but then the heater has to be on to have circulation. Give me your thoughts please.

The only place copper and compression works well with fluids is on a still..

You have the right to be wrong!

If you found the assembly so simple and straight forward you should consider offering your assistance instead of being condescending. (no brainer)

MoneyPit,

I bought a piece from Langdon that goes between the block and the thermostat housing. The cycle goes from the passenger side of the water pump through the intake and back out to the thermostat housing. I believe that's what Langdon recommends.

Jerry

Sorry about the snappy posts fellas. I suppose when someone makes "no brainer" commments and states that something is straight forward and simple when others are obviously having problems is a bit irritating to me. My brother assembled the thing in about 8 minutes. I spent several hours on the thing and couldn't figure it out. :)I'm glad he didn't rub my face in it.... too much :rolleyes:

No hard feelings. I haven't had my daily dose of caffeine yet.

Hey No Brainer, when Tom admits to me on the phone that it won't work in my application then I take him at his word. I just wish he had told me that before, not three days into the installation. I have here two other original linkages, a '55 convertible and a '56 pick-up and so that makes three different style linkages in this one garage. One size does not fit all. If it bolted right up then you were one of the lucky ones.
It would be nice if people would read closely before jumping in with both feet. I just added a two inch piece to my original linkage, not an Offy, to try and get it to fit. It's getting better but it's still not exactly right.
As BelAire said, we are all here for the same purpose, trying to help each other with this old iron.

4 cokes later and I feel much better.

amen trapper

Hey Belair, Finally got the linkage almost acceptable, now it won't idle below 5 to 600 rpm.
With the linkage messed up it would idle at the original 450. Oh, I can get it that low but it's rough, needs 5 to 6 to be smooth like before. Tomorrow is another day and I've already missed 2 cruise ins and a show today. But, if and when, it will be ready for a few more 1,000 mile round trips. Have you ever noticed that most on here brag about a 50 mile round trip? What's the point of that anyway?

Trapper,

Like you, I drive my cars. I live in Indianapolis. In the past two years I've driven a classic car to Charlotte, NC; Nashville, TN (twice); southern Kentucky; Flint, MI; Cincinnati, OH; and Louisville, KY. I've also made a bunch of 'road trips' where I just went for a long ride. I love driving my cars.

I've started to pull my distributer to replace with my HEI unit. I've got to get this thing in time so I can finish tweakin' these carbs.

Later,

Jerry

hey guys i know this is off topic but have you heard much about pertronix ignitors?

I've ran pertronix ignitions on several former cars without any issues. I've got a set for my Buick but I haven't installed it. I'll be keeping my Impala stock. I'm installing an HEI distributor in the truck as I mentioned above. You may want to do some searches on this site to get a feel for the Pertronix stuff. I've heard several horror stories.

Thanks Jerry

I've read a bit about them, but they seem too good to be true.

I like them because they don't require the maintenance the the old points system does. I've used them on 3 different vehicles (2 Chevy small blocks and a 351 Cleveland) and they work great. It seemed the cars started easier and ran smoother. I never really checked fuel mileage but I felt like that was improved too.

My only concern is if they fail while I'm away from home. I used to carry all of the old points parts just in case.

Jerry

Jerry, I also have that piece on the thermostatt housing but there is only one hole in it. Did you drill/tap another?

BelAir - calm down and have another cup o' joe. I'll buy.
Trapper - since the engines are the same (GM)I still don't see why you having a problem. Your not running a F*%# are you?

Sorry - but it was straightforward to me. We all see things differently I guess. Some of you guys are pretty defensive, take it easy. I have some occassional problems and try to help where I can but for chissake fella's, chill out. I didn't come here to fight.

MoneyPit,

I'm running 3/8 rubber hose from the left side of the water pump where the heater hose comes out. (Note: I don't have a heater so it was plugged.) That hose goes to the intake. The line out of the intake goes to an aluminum piece that I bought from Langdon's that mounts between the block and the thermostat housing. I'm guessing the water flows that direction.

Is this part of my heat problem? The water pump is picking up water from the radiator (or block?) and pumping it to the intake. That pushes the water back to the engine to the piece I installed from Langdon's that's mounted between the block and thermostat housing. That water goes into the block unless the thermostat is open. If the block is full, I'd guess no water is flowing. So; until the thermostat opens I'd guess that no water is flowing through the intake.

Anyone have an idea for a better/faster heat source to the intake?

Jerry

Looked at the pertronix site, but did not see any prices for the igniter points replacement system for a 54 235...anyone have a ballpark on what it costs...have never had any problems with my points, but seems like a possible upgrade...I agree with keeping the old point set handy though, can always set them with a match book

Seems that we are having the same problem due to a lack of information from Langdon's. I did get a drawing of the plumbing for the thermostat housing adapter to roure hot water to the intake.

It appears that the "left side" of the housing is from the drivers seat in the vehicle. This would be the right side from the front of the engine. Water from the right side of the adapter (as viewed from the front of the engine) would be the pass to the intake manifold and then return to the line from the water pump to the heater core. In this example the water would be heated prior to the thermostat opening so it should warm up quicker.

All this said, it took three evening to grind enough clearance for the Offenhauser intake manifold to fit the Fenton headers, again no instructions to go by.

We're fortunate to have this forum to discuss our problems and have others help in the solution.

Yea! The header/intake situation was even more frtustrating than what we've been discussing. It took several attempts to get things ground down enough. I had to grind the heater plate off too. I think that's still touching the headers. That will probably cause me issues later.

So; you're thinking the water is flowing from the thermostat housing to the intake and back to the water pump.

You're right about these forums. They save my butt all the time.

When I think the water flow through it is as follows: coolant flows from the aluminum block to the intake plate, through the plate and chamber and out through the bottom opening. From there it really needs to go to the block to be heated but if the thermostat is closed (as it would be when cold) then it doesn't get heated but rather must wait for the T-stat to open to get to the block. This ain't gonna work too pretty good...unless, MAYBE a small hole, say 1/8" is drilled into the T-stat to let a little bit through. Whatcha think?

Would it be better to run the bottom plate hose to the block drain plug? That would sure speed things up but what about the pressure from the water pump? I don't know if the pressure would build and blow the hose or if there is enough built in bypass relief in the WP to allow this to work. Thats why I think the little hole idea may work. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Were gonna figure this thing out w/o Langdon who isn't as much help as I would have hoped for.

cgresham1212: yes...absolutely yes. It is very obvious the Mr. Fenton and Mr. Offenhauser were not speaking. I'm almost afraid to grind anymore off but it still doesn't fit the way I want. Why would somebody make something like that? Go figure. If I had this to do over I would split the original exhaust manifold and forget the Fenton deal.