The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop HEI conversion

Apparently, there's only one person on the forum not qualified to use an angle grinder, a file, and a hacksaw. The rest of us don't have those problems.
Jerry

It has been established there is no modification that will use your existing distributor but make it so that if you run into problems, you can just lift the HEI parts out and put the points back in. But if you look at Jason's article very carefully, it looks as though it COULD be made that way.

Since alot of us run alternators, the regulator isnt used so what a perfect place to hide the ignition module. Even if you do use it, there may be room there. The reluctor could be machined to fit over the existing lobe structure which would also properly index it. Just like pulling the rotor off, the reluctor could be slipped right out. If it needs a set screw, we can do that. The mounting for the pickups could be screwed into the existing plate. Then, the wires could be routed outside through the single wire hole with a rubber bushing. You could even leave a disconnect in the wire line and a pigtail to put it all back as original.

Jason's setup is a very ingenious way to resolve the problem, but if we use a think-tank process here, we can get every single thing we want without sacrifice. Lots of great ideas have been mentioned in this thread to do it.

Im going to order a few reluctors and the other parts Jason mentioned and play with it in my spare time. I dont like Chrysler products and simply CANT have anything Chrysler on my truck, so I will be looking for a GM reluctor to replace that slant 6 one he uses.

Lock it down now, nothing we can say from this point on will matter.
Wolfcub, great post!

Joe

I had no idea something as simple as a primitive ignition could be ground into the dirt so thoroughly. Oh, Internet.

I agree that all the pertinent concepts have been well covered in this thread. Enough for anyone to make an informed decision in choosing an available system or make their own where none of those suit them.

Like Jerry implied, you could probably modify one like I or others have done with simple hand tools. I used a lathe because I have one. I've done similar work with holesaws, files, dremels, and hacksaws. This is a relatively simple and forgiving mechanism. And if you roach it, another stock distributor is easily obtained.

Have fun.

Jason

They started with it in 74, and in 75 it was on all GM engines.

Come on now, I just sent a picture of my ignition system to Deve. Maybe he'll post the picture here??

John

Does anyone know why Jason used the port on the intake manifold for his vac advance instead of the carb?

Also, I am wondering about why the outside ignition module is needed. What does it do? The Pertronix module doesn't have one does it? Anyone?

Here is the pic John wanted you guys to see..
http://s160.photobucket.com/user/st...2jpg_zpsd43b4eaf.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

No special reason. I do run a dual intake with both carb vac ports plugged. Manifold seemed easier.


It is needed to energize and collapse the magnetic field in the ignition coil. The reluctor and pickup are only a passive triggering device. They are unable, alone, to operate an ignition coil. I mounted it externally because there is no room for it inside the distributor.

Jason

Maybe its just me, but in case I am forfeiting my reputation for the common good...

What made the ignition coil fire appropriately in a points system and why wouldn't you be able to do the same thing with a point-less system? Trying to understand here folks. Arent you creating the same binary ON/OFF condition with both?

If Pertronix wasn't so hush hush about their proprietary stuff, I could ask them how they are doing it. Nobody wants to share! Thanks again Jason!

Deve, a points system triggers the coil by closing the points, a "pointless system" obviously can't do that, so it uses a control module .... and your choice of terms seems appropriate, "pointless" indeed

Bill

Deve,

Two main things going on with ignition system:

1) Controlling the coil to make a spark. This involved sending voltage to the coil and cutting it off repeatedly. Sending voltage through the primary windings (an ignition coil is a transformer with at least two windings) creates a strong magnetic field (read about: flux). Removing voltage suddenly collapses the field and INDUCES a voltage in the secondary windings of sufficient strength to jump a plug gap.

2) Delivering the spark at the right time to match up with the state of the cylinder (compression stroke, at XX degrees of engine rotation). (read about: ideal ignition timing and fuel charge burn rates in combustion engines)

The points based ignition system (also known as a Kettering system) has the points doing BOTH. When closed, they are passing current directly to the coil to build the mag field. When opened at the right time, based on the profile of the point cam, it delivers the spark at the right TIME.

In a contactless system (aka electronic system) the coil controller or ignition module controls the coil while the trigger mechanism controls the timing. Of course this is an oversimplification, most modern electronic systems also make timing decisions and only use the trigger or sensor to understand the rotational position of the engine.

Good reading here: http://books.google.com/books?id=-Y...ignition%20systems%20concept&f=false

In an earlier post I believe you commented about a "correct" setup that uses a primary resistor with the coil. It is a planned compromise, not the ideal solution. That resistor is there to protect the points, not the coil. The coil would tolerate much higher voltages in most cases. The points would burn up too quickly to be feasible though. This is one of the benefits of electronic ignition: higher coil voltages and faster rise times. Rise time is the time it takes to establish the magnetic field in the coil. This time is what determines what the maximum rpm is that can be supported by the ignition system before it becomes weak or unstable.

Jason

Deve, BTW, sending me a person message that suggests I may be "one of those internet weenies who just goes with the flow and dismisses people with a desire to make a distinct difference in this community" is not a great way to enlist someone's help. I took the time I have in giving this information for the benefit of everyone here who might care.

Thanks for the reply Jason, even with the snide comment and out of context criticism. I don't care. Its information I am after. I read a lot about this stuff, but you can read all day long and still wonder where the ignition controller for the Pertronix module is located. They figured out how to do without it somehow. I am after finding the best solution even if it doesn't exist yet.

Everyone insists these are all the same, but no, they are all different and I am trying to find the core components common to all, then decide why one has something that the other one doesn't. This HEI business comes up about once a month and its because people see the same replies concerning the same bad actors ad infinitum. I want to get to the bottom of the issue even if there are others out there who are doing their best to stop me.

I will read some more and try to figure out ONCE AGAIN why a person cant use the electronic switch the very same way they use the mechanical one. On some of the models, but not on others.

the Pertronix, as stated on their website, uses a Hall Effect trigger, it's a 'mechanical transducer', not an 'electronic switch', the HEI module is entirely electronic

Bill

Sure adds to the confusion. Crane, Accel, Pertronix, Mallory, all advertise Hall Effect triggers. So probably half of the 'HEI' solutions out there. Since all the systems we are talking about here are obsolete and outdated technology, I wonder which one is best? With one, no need for the outside the dist control module. With the other you get..? (that's better).

In the USAF we used an optical switch for a 360 degree antenna for IFF Interrogators that reminds me of this. Even though the Hall unit isn't considered a true electronic switch, there are no moving parts for the sensor. Crane uses an optical sensor for their HEI setup, which according to reviews is a bad idea. My concern after hanging out here awhile and seeing this issue come up all the time, is that Pertronix has a reliability issue. But is it the same people commenting each time the subject comes up? Or is it a systemic issue. In any case, there isn't much the same about any of these systems and it would be nice to finally understand which is better and why. None of them are in new cars today, so we are talking about obsolete technology.

In any case, thanks to everyone for your patience. I mean no harm to you in any way, but you can certainly go F yourself if you feel I do not have the right to ask questions here. Its about learning our CRAFT. If we could get our self appointed experts to get over themselves long enough to give us their wisdom, we would ALL be smarter. But you know what I have found in my old age? Those kinds of people are too busy trying to protect what they perceive as their LEAD in power and influence to tell us peons what we need to know. Afterall, we should just shut up, close the subject, move on right? Or maybe we could find other constructive things to do with our hack saw? If only they knew how embarrassing they sound. Americans won WW2 because we grouped together, put politics and OURSELVES aside, and learned from each other to create extraordinary things. Why do we have to wait for world wars to do this? Why cant we do it on our Stovebolts? Guess its just a bridge too far.

I'd say the external control module is preferable, less mechanical, a 'true' HEI, not just a substitute for the points .... the Hall Effect setup is not so much a "high energy" ignition as just a solution to keeping the external appearance of the original distributor

Bill

The Hall effect transducer wouldn't be able to make and break the current to the coil directly, it needs an amplifier so to speak to carry the load of the coil.
That is what my ignition does, the points switch the transistors on and off, the transistors carry all the current. The points actually only carry milliamps instead of 4-6 amp that they normally would. You'll wear the rubbing block down before the points ever wear out. I believe this was featured in Pop Mech in 1964....

John

Deve,

You and I must be wired differently. My post contained no snide comments or criticisms. Real or intended. I'm sorry you feel that way.

I have tried to help and really don't understand your response.

Jason

I feel that way too, but I am one of those that likes things to look stock. Afterall, its a pre-HEI engine. I can hide anything just about anywhere, but that big honkin distributor cap is pretty hard to hide without drugs. That's why I felt Jason had a pretty nice solution, but its not available, and it requires destroying the lobes on the original distributor. The only, ONLY person to talk to then is Tom Langdon, who offers a mini-HEI that people like me (and I assume others who feel that having a distributor cap larger than your truck) could marginally live with. But then, and most people don't know this, you wont be getting to the bottom of the distributor (weights, springs, etc) because the modifications exclude this. And, it doesn't use your stock distributor. They are getting harder to come by these days too. In good shape, with good lobes, good gear, and no wear on the shaft, good luck.

So many sacrifices. I pride myself on finding solutions, but this one doesn't feel real easy to resolve. Its why I try to ask people who do know. Thanks Bill. Thank you all for what its worth.

Just read previous posts.. JOHN.. that is some setup. You should elaborate on it. Seems plausible? Please elaborate, I went to a lot of trouble putting that one pic up there for ya!

Jason, we ARE wired differently if you cant read the following sentence after the one you tried to embarrass me with in your PM. I do NOT view you as part of the problem, but part of the solution. But you knew that because you have the whole context.

How about we just UN-F ourselves here and get down to the REAL issue. Which is simple, yet seems to completely go right over others heads.....

"[quote] We see this HEI conversion issue come up a LOT on the Stovebolt. The same people usually respond with the very same answers as to their rightful experience. We have NOT resolved ANYTHING in all these years of talking about it because we have not bothered to understand the difference between Hall Effect offerings.. Pertronix, Mallory, Accel, Crane, Hot Spark, ETC, and the GM solutions and why they are different, and why they are not the same. Please give me a break if I am not being hospitable to our embarrassing experts who once again try to sluff this off as just another question on the Stovebolt, as opposed to a REAL issue and an OPPORTUNITY to resolve this question once and for all so others can make INFORMED decisions. "[endquote]

I love all you guys and as much as you can annoy the HELL out of me, you also have the ability to make my day. In this case, you have embarrassed yourselves, so just step up to the plate and either A) be part of the problem which you are so far doing a great job on, or B) prove that you know something and help sort all of the pros/cons out and for the love of GOD impart your wisdom on ALL of us. Hate me, the playa, NOT the game as a whole. Help us out here!! If you think I am the only one interested in this technology, remember that this comes up ALL the freakin time! I DO feel bad about all this.. but not bad enough just to forget that I have questions and if I, Deve, have questions, and I don't know how to use a hacksaw, then I am SURE there are others who have the same question?

oh the drama
Deve, as you noted above there's a whole list of major corporations that each make their proprietary version of ignition systems, the only way to suss out just what each offers is to buy them and deconstruct them .... also different folks here have elaborated on their own adaptations, and numerous folks have given their opinions of some of the systems - you need to form your own opinion, nothing is "best" for everything and every driver, your own use on your unique vehicle can only be evaluated by you

Bill

I always thought that was true.. evaluate a product for YOUR use and determine how much value it has to your application. And that's true for stuff like refrigerators, size, type, etc.

But this is about science. What provides the most reliable spark to that spark plug, makes the engine run the most efficient, gives you that sense of knowing you have the best available ignition system. Then, once our compadres all determine the 80's GM HEI with the big distributor cap does this, now we can ask the next question. Which is.. yeah, but that cap is bigger than Texas! Got anything that makes my Stovebolt still look like a Stovebolt? I am thinking after all this, Toms Mini still would be the answer for compromise.

But, Jason proved there is a third alternative. One NONE of us have explored fully. Using our very own distributor but making it TRUE GM HEI. Wow! Now we are talking! But I have a few minor issues with Jasons idea.. that the engineer in me keeps hollering.. we can use his wonderful idea, and make it better. Make it removable, less invasive. Not to undermine HIS efforts.. He is the pioneer here!

I am saying I guess.. give THAT system an evaluation and watch everyone say, I want that, hands down! And I am truly sorry for the drama.. feel bad.. ask the wife here. But, do I or do I not have a point?

I have been studying electronic fuel injection, mostly the standalone units which would be appropriate for these engines. the electronic setup gets most of its power from timing. I don't believe you really have to utilize the fuel injection aspect of the ECM. There is no advance on the distributor, as a matter of fact you lock the distributor from any sort of advance, it is all in the computer I still haven't sorted the whole thing out, but aside from hiding the ECM under the dash, you can make the whole thing look completely stock. But you can tune the timing to the gnats a... But other than actually using the stock set up which works just fine, yes Toms setup would most likely be the premium set up.

Maybe it is possible to retrofit something into the stock distributor. I don't know who originally cam up with the idea of the distributor that tom uses but you think its possible over all these years they would have thought about trying to fit a modern HEI system into a stock layout? I don't have a spare module in front of me but physically i do not think it would fit in the stock distributor. Possible a way to install a pickup and make the module external like lots of modders do.

Our resident whiner is upset about the stock-distributor conversion that has the audacity to use a reluctor and pickup coil from a (GASP!) MOPAR distributor! It fits nicely, and works great. It even uses a remotely-mounted GM trigger module which contains the current limiter and the other features which were designed into the original system to protect against overcurrent and premature failure of the module due to overheating. Anything that is capable of developing an AC sine wave will trigger the GM module- - - -the MOPAR unit just happens to fit and function properly. Yes, there's a danger of flashover from the close-spaced wires when the original small diameter cap and rotor is used, but that can be minimized somewhat by using the 55-up tall cap and rotor instead of the shorty used on the 216 distributors.
Jerry

Yeah, no mopar. But if I get over-ruled by the masses, Im good with that. But when I went to order that reluctor, it was 30 days out. Made me think we should have a plan B reluctor setup in case these parts are getting harder to find.

You guys bring up a good question though. Is the ECS of this vintage that Jason is using smart enough to set the timing? Eliminating the need for vac advance? What other features are possible? (rev limiting, etc).

Jason's setup is great, but if we think about producing them for others who want it I would suggest the following changes.

1) Make the reluctor fit over the distributor lobes and from the top. Makes installing as easy as pull the rotor, push the reluctor into place, install the rotor. Maybe a set screw inside one of the cavities to hold it in place. (or two) That would also make it preset.

2) Make the bracket for the pick-ups more friendly to install. Just pull the points and condenser and drop the new pick-ups in. Place in the center of the adjustment lobe and follow the enclosed instructions.

I love what he did already, but when you think of others who want this setup and the varied skill levels, why not make it so the same guy who is thinking about a Pertronix module can install it himself?

Standard Motor Products new MOPAR 6 cylinder reluctor and pickup coil on ebay available right now, $19.95. Stocked in virtually any FLAPS.

Jerry

Deve,
You have answered your own question, "What provides the most reliable spark to that spark plug, makes the engine run the most efficient, gives you that sense of knowing you have the BEST AVAILABLE ignition system".
As of TODAY it is the large cap HEI.
You have many options:
Stock with good quality points and HiPo coil.
Stock with an MSD 6A box hidden under the dash.
Stock with Pertronix, with an MSD 6A box hidden under the dash.
Mallory dual point or Unilite distributor, $400.
Mallory Magneto on ebay for $1,000.
Tom's mini HEI with an ugly external coil. Or with an MSD box and MSD remote coil that looks better.
Large cap HEI with or without an MSD box.
As of TODAY, these are your options.
Make a decision based on your wants. Stop telling us that what's available isn't good enough for you. We've all given input on what we have and what works for US.
You're an engineer, design a new system and sell it to us. If it's any good we'll buy it.
We're not going to design it for you, we're happy with the choices we have now.

What I want isn't good enough for most of us. You agree, even if you don't know it. Imagine:

Stock Distibutor with zero modifications
Press on and lock over the lobes reluctor
Screw in the pickup
plug in an HEI module that adjusts the timing, limits the rev, and sets your system for optimal.

Its everything we want. How do I determine that? I ask every bolter to reply to that question. Then the people HERE who are very talented set out to solve those issues. You may be one of them. Or, you can do what others here do, and toss wrenches. What does that get you? I never understood that. We are so much smarter when we work together for a common cause.

So, we are just trying to enhance our hobby yet for some amazing reason, there are the negative people who just don't get the things we can do as a group.

I am amazed at Jason, for example. Everyone else has made half baked solutions, but he wanted to use HIS stock distributor. He did it all himself! So are you REALLY trying to tell me that our collective cannot figure out how to make that a reality for anyone who wants it?

Please. Its just too dumbfounding to me to even entertain. We are better than that, YOU are better than that. Join us and help us go Positive. You will find in life negative is a lot harder.

I wish I knew more about this subject, but I don't have to know anything. I just have to know people who DO. There is lots of talent here. Lets give them a chance? 40 people give their input, thought occurs, things happen, and before you know it, The Stovebolt has a new item to put in the Stovebolt store at cost. Please give a new concept a chance.

http://www.greasygringo.com/2012/06/59-chevy-hei-conversion/

ONE guy did that! There are reasons we cant just make a bunch of them for everyone.. so we need further thought. Why would anyone argue with that?

So, get off your whiny butt and invent something!
Jerry

your list starts with the only important point, unfortunately the rest of the list totally contradicts that, what you want is a stock looking distributor with electronic guts

the negativity is saying the stock distributor isn't good enough, I'd venture the guess that 90% of the folks here who haven't rodded their trucks still have the stock points setup and are happy with it if they understand it .... I can't even remember the last time I popped the cap on my 283 points distributor, barely touch the key and it starts, 1 or 2 revs and it's humming - but then I'm not trying to get 2 more horses or an extra mile out of a gallon, I have a daily driver that dependably does what I ask any time any day without having to carry a whole nother distributor under the seat

Bill

That's true Bill. Nothing wrong with the stock setup. Has lasted for years without trouble. This is about options. But if you are challenged in some way that you cant be bending over the engine compartment any more than you HAVE to, its something to think about. Oddly, the younger crowd really goes for the electronic solution. I think its a worthwhile venture.

Jerry, I will help out any way I can. Hopefully we can say the same for you. You have so much knowledge of all this. Picking everyone's brain, then taking the best ideas and putting them together. What a concept! Wish I had a more complete machine shop. Just figuring out how to do what I want with the reluctor is a challenge for me.

LOL John

I agree Red.
There are all kinds of options out there already, and ours is a very small market (pre '62 Chevy sixes).
Pick an available ignition and move on to the next item that needs restoration or improvement.
Myself, I have no problem paying good money for a good part that improves the look or performance of my vehicles.
My 55.2 truck with 235 came with an Offenhauser intake and Wayne valve cover. I didn't like the look or engineering of the squared off "log style" intake, I thought curved, smoother flowing, radiused curves to the end cylinders would look and breathe better.
I didn't like the 2 bolt valve cover setup in that it didn't compress the gasket evenly for ultimate sealing and the fact that the valve cover was solidly attached to the rocker shaft. The purpose, I suppose, was to make the valve cover look "old style" but my truck is a 55.2, it came with a 4 bolt setup. The 2 bolt setup merely transmitted all the valvetrain noise through the valve cover, the cover acting like a sounding board, and made my truck sound like a '94 Dodge Cummins.
My solution was, as usual, to spend big bucks for a "good for ME" upgrade. I bought a reproduction Thickstun "Dog Bone" intake,
sized for a 235/261 with 5" high carb pedestals. It is a work of art and worth evey penny, to ME, every time I pop the hood.
To solve my valve cover aggravation I bought a reproduction, fully polished, 4 bolt Thickstun valve cover, finned on top AND sides. When I pop my hood, I smile every time. My valvetrain noise is 25% of what it was before and I can now hear the click of my solid lifters, partially due to the fact that the Thickstun valve cover is a better alloy, twice as thick and twice as heavy as the Wayne.
My point is, there is always a market for more choices for a better product, but the pre '62 Chevy 6 ignition market is already what the market will support, NOTHING new is financially feasible for a vendor.
WHAT DO I WANT?
There are currently ZERO options for an oil pan. I want a heavy gauge, finned aluminum oil pan for a stovebolt.
There are currently 2 options for a stovebolt timing cover, stock, or a Chinese, knock off, chrome one, sold on ebay for $20, or from a vendor for $50.
If you build it, we will come.

Mechanical or Electrical, everything will break or wear out sooner or later. Even our beloved 216/235/261 engines have a short live span compared to modern engines. By 70-80,000 miles it will need rebuilt or at the least re ringed.

John

I did a lot of research today and found out a few interesting things, but am awaiting a tech support answer for others.

1) The NICE thing about the Hall Effect offerings; Hotspark, Pertronix, Mallory, Accel, Crane modules, etc. They are available in 6 AND 12 volts, so nobody from the 1930's to the late 50's is left out.

2) They also are good because there are no moving parts and if you purchase their proprietary 40,000 volt coil, they provide a much hotter spark, allowing you to put your spark plug gap to as much as .040.

3) Another advantage of them is they use the vacuum advance, have no external parts and they just drop right into the stock distributor. Other than conjecture concerning reliability issues, they really are the cats meow. This is not to say I agree its the cats meow. Follow here..

So, that would SEEM to be the way to go. It IS the way to go if you have 6 volt system. But if we have 12 volts, there is another, I think better system. I will call it TRUE HEI. The reason I call it that is because Mopar (uuuugh) put it in ALL vehicles in 1973. GM followed up in 1974. I don't care about Ford. So, Its real, car company technology. Of course the same car companies that gave us the lamo ignition switch that got a bunch of people killed, but I digress..

They use a reluctor, which takes the place of the lobes on the distributor shaft, and the pickup assembly which takes the place of the points and condenser. Then, since they are not Hall Effect modules, they need an external 'mini computer' to sync everything. This gives the user more power over certain functions. In this era, 1980 or so, its pretty embarrassing, but it gets the job done. It controls the dwell. That seems to be it.

This is where my research falls apart. I have a few emails in to MSD so far asking them for help in this. I want to know if we can use a more capable Ignition Control Module to give us features like pinpoint timing adjustment, rev limiting, etc. I do not know what they are going to say.

If I get the answer I want, we would want to go with True HEI because then it gives us real control over our ignition and would eliminate the vac advance. I personally would leave it there due to looks, but I can see a major advantage to an electronically controlled advance system.

If I get the answer I don't want, it makes no sense to have an Ignition control Module that you have to place somewhere near your engine that does a lot of nothing so I would say for most everyday vintage truck enthusiasts to go with Hall effect and get two of them so you have a spare. More later.

THIS is why we keep hammering these issues. So we LEARN the nuances of them. It may be annoying, but that's the beauty of the way John and Peggy have this set up. You don't have to open your yapper unless you have something constructive to say. I think the moderators are doing a great job in seeing where this goes, because there IS MUCH more to this. More to come next week.

Once we actually have the facts.. pros and cons, we can write a document that explains this all in detail so the subject doesn't come up every 30-60 days ad infinitum! In the long run THIS CUTS DOWN on posts! IF MSD tells me there is more to this, WE have a job to do for our fellow bolters in designing a truly superior True HEI system.

Bill, I advocate choices, but I am also adamant on keeping things stock. Altho this sounds contrary, it means that we can remove the modifications and reinstall the points/condenser with a single screwdriver. No part of the truck actual is modified. That is true with everything I design or advocate.

dude, these engines might turn 3500 rpm, the stock points are just fine. What are you rambling on and on and on and on about.

I have been studying electronic fuel injection, mostly the standalone units which would be appropriate for these engines. the electronic setup gets most of its power from timing. I don't believe you really have to utilize the fuel injection aspect of the ECM. There is no advance on the distributor, as a matter of fact you lock the distributor from any sort of advance, it is all in the computer I still haven't sorted the whole thing out, but aside from hiding the ECM under the dash, you can make the whole thing look completely stock. But you can tune the timing to the gnats a... But other than actually using the stock set up which works just fine, yes Toms setup would most likely be the premium set up.
-------------------------
You DIDNT write this? LOL! Its amazing the stupidity you have to deal with when you are getting things down to the very nitty gritty. Its tiring. Really it is. But YOU? You expect this from others. They have no forward thinking capability. They think that was IS NOW, is ALL. For those of us who know better, we get to endure this kind of monkey crap. But the good news is, not for long. Thanks for playing though.

I am hoping MSD comes up with a solution that will let us set the timing electronically, as well as anything YOU are interested in in the fuel injection arena too. You know, its like being in the twilight zone. But keep it up people, I am here for the long haul.

I looked at your old post about your trailer hitch, and I see some serious problems with it. Perhaps you would be interested in going back to that and perfect it. I would go into detail what's wrong with it, but I don't want to take all of the fun out of it for you.
Carl

yes I did write that, not quite sure how you can turn it around and make a point of it. Then have the cajones to call me stupid. The reason I was studying electronic fuel injection is (as if it was any of your business) is to see if I could convert my hilborn constant flow injection for the wayne head I finally acquired after 30 years of searching, to electronic sequential so I could actually use it on the street. Not for any major performance, just so I don't wash the cylinders down with fuel. It is just a hobby, something to do. It may be a waste of time and money, (lots of money) but it is better than sitting in a hotel room full of strippers smoking crack. Not to mention, not too many people will have one. I only mentioned that about the electronic timing control because that is one of the functions of the ECM required for electronic injection. And offered it up as an option in your obsessive quest to reinvent the wheel, You are looking in the wrong place, it isn't JUST fuel injection it is ENGINE MANAGEMENT. there are several aftermarket companies that provide devices for electronically controlling timing. Not to mention every automobile made today. But until I actually get my engine built, the points work just fine.