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#1054621 09/07/2014 4:09 PM
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'Bolter
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went into my local PPG dealer for some clarity about epoxy primer over slight to moderate rust. he said never use paint striper on rusted parts, that the acid from the stripper can get trapped in the pitted metal and ruin the paint.
he also said the same for self etching primer. He said the only way is to sand blast then epoxy primer then do your body work or bondo.Im assuming patch panels either before sand blasting or after epoxy primer.
he also said that the epoxy primers are hard to sand after the 72 hour window.
so is the best process to spray a high build primer over the epoxy before the need to sand and then do the body work so I'm not jumping back and forth blasting and priming and sanding?
Now I'm no painter,Just looking for the right way to get the job done using good materials that are easiest to work with.
Ill be doing all the work myself. Not sure if I'm getting the right info from the PPG dealer.I have read a lot this and seen guys do it in a lot of different ways.
Looking for advise

Bill





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Cruising in the Passing Lane
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I'd pretty much agree with the guy, nothing over rust, always get rid of that first, then maybe phosphoric acid wash to be sure any pits are cleaned out, replace any metal as needed, good wipe down with oil/wax remover, then epoxy, which is definitely hard to sand, then 'body work' [filler], then sanding primer

Bill


Moved over to the Passing Lane

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'Bolter
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Bill, just as with anything in working on old tin, typically any "short cut" is going to have repercussions or additional steps needed, and is not always the cut and dry next thing since sliced bread that the manufacturer's make them out to be. Any paint stripper will strip again (continue to strip?) so his comment goes without saying. By the same token, not all epoxy primers are compatible with rust convertors, so any residue of that left in pits or otherwise can also cause delamination of the paint if the epoxy doesn't get along with it.. I would agree that the MEDIA blasting (not sand) is a good method to use and gives a good abraded surface for epoxy to adhere, but you best be dam sure the one holding the nozzle knows what they are doing or you will go crazy trying to fix all the warped metal. If your PPG dealer is the only game in town, maybe it's best to use that product and just figure out your best course of action to address any rust issues and also keep the various products playing nicely together. There are ways to use these products together by neutralizing any acid or rust converter, but the person doing said work has got to be thorough to eliminate all possible residue, as the PPG rep stated. As you are starting to see, rarely are the shortcuts actually shortcuts.

Hindsight, what I have in the shop should have been epoxy primered when it was stripped and then cut out any rust issues as they are found/able to be worked on. Keeps flash rust from coming back, requiring more prep. Sure, you may be wasting a bit of paint, but then if something is Swiss cheese from rust holes, don't paint that part.

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'Bolter
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Bill, to elaborate on PPG products further......

Disclaimer:

Keep in mind I am not an expert on PPG products, have not used them much at all, but these comments are based on reading various posts over the past ten years or so by guys who do actually use the product. So if any of you PPG guys do see something needing clarification/correction, please chime in.


Where the PPG rep was referring to not using a paint stripper, PPG does have a metal prep for most all different metals that will promote adhesion with their epoxy (or other) primer. The metal conditioner for steel contains phosphoric acid, which helps in converting any rust issues. I would add here that any loose scale needs to be removed no matter what process you are using. Deep pits are hiding places for this scale, and sometimes the metal prep will aid in loosening some of this scale for easier removal. But IMO, every bit of foreign material, whether that be rust scale or rust converter/rust scale mix, needs to be removed from the bottoms of pits before any epoxy and then filler can take place. Just because someone refers to their product as a rust converter does not mean it's converted rust scale into something that will hold paint and it's ok to leave that crap in there. Neglecting to clean them thoroughly will normally come back to bite you in a paint delamination later. As with any rust repair, I've always said they are cheap to fix while they are still in bare metal. So true in this case as well.

Here's the PPG metal prep document, you would use either the DX520 or DX579 on your steel. I'd say your PPG rep could guide you on which would be best to use...

http://www.bapspaint.com/docs/psheets/PPG/Automotive/Deltron/P-226.pdf


After this prep, they recommend spraying with DPLF within 24 hours. This will limit any flash rust due to humidity or other atmospheric conditions. DPLF comes in different colors, determined by the numeric suffix to the part number. As stated elsewhere, DPLF is not easily sanded. This is largely why it is normally topcoated within recoat window with high build, as that is something that IS easily sanded. Also, once cured (if not topcoated) Epoxy seals rather well such that it doesn't offer a good mechanical bond to subsequent coats of other paint products.

Chemical bond... paint is topcoated prior to full cure such that components will cross-link, or attach to each other chemically.

Mechanical Bond... Paint has already cured, but has been properly abraded (sanded, wet sanded, etc) to provide adhesion or grip for the subsequent coat.


Definitions aside, what I have read on the DPLF is that once cured, regardless of mechanical prep, it does not provide OPTIMAL adhesion to subsequent coats. So if you didn't spray high build on top of your DPLF and your project was put on hold for XX months, they recommend that you abrade the epoxy, spray a link coat of DPLF over the first, and then spray the high build after the epoxy has flashed. The epoxy adheres well to itself, so this method will give a chemical bond to the high build, which gives better adhesion in this case.

A couple different scenarios.... Had you sprayed K36 high build on the first go round, abrade it when ready to continue with your project and it is ready to spray with more high build, or sealer, etc. But this paint is also more porous than the DPLF, so if your project would be exposed to outside weather conditions (rain) then it may be best to leave it in epoxy only. About 3 good coats would be needed to seal out the moisture effectively.


Moderated by  klhansen 

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