The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Bad gas

You said alot Jerry.

All subsidies suck in a free market system.... IMHO

Here we go,"SUBSIDIES SUCK IN A FREE MARKET SYSTEM" FREE MARKET SYSTEM? HOW much are we subsidizing the Big Oil companies? Is Ethanhol still being subsidized? Did we not "Subsidize" by sending troops to Iraq, sacrificing our sons and daughters in the search for weapons of mass destruction? All off budget! Who gained besides some stockholders of Halliburton, a few politicians and BIG OIL? I am willing to continue this discussion in PM's if you think your able to P further than me. Jerry

politics to the spoon please, where the bouncer can more easily delete your peein contests

Bill

Interesting experiment Jerry, that is the closed jar and open
jar idea. Ya got me pouring as I type here before the sun comes
up. Good day to get started on that cuz it started raining this
morning and will be most of the day, humidity will be up in the
high 70-80% most of the day and more to come later in the week:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/155946647

As fur as the old containers go, I guess I'm the lucky one there
also. Old tank in truck, simply put fresh gas in her the day I
picked her up 30 miles from here and that's all I've been doing
for the last nine years is top her off with E-10. Almost all of
my gas cans are old ones that I've had since I got married and
bought my first house, forty years ago. Lucky again I guess,
never had a problem with fueling from them either. I do now
and always have made a habit of keeping a lid on it with any
volatile liquid:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/155946687

Denny Graham
Mr. Lucky in Sandwich, IL

Jon, I don't understand the take on Monel. Monel is highly
resistant to corrosion being over 60% nickel, copper and some
iron. It's also difficult to machine because of it's tendency
to work harden. It's specified in especially corrosive
environments such as marine and chemical industries.

Your suggestion that the Viton is a better choice for a
carburetor needle is backed up by the rest of the automotive
industry. I think the idea that a metal to metal seal is better
stems from the fact that they are recommended for use in
'High Performance' applications where exotic oxygen rich fuels
are being used so some may think that would be more durable when
applied to their Rochester 'B'.

Viton tips on needles have been around ever since I can
remember. They were in the premium rebuilding kits back when
I was an automotive parts men in the late 50's and on. I would
urge anyone new to rebuilding carburetors to heed your advice
about staking the seat to break the sharp edge since Viton is
principally a rubber.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

If the viton seal works for you then I highly suggest you keep using them.

I know what works for the vehicles I work on and plan to keep doing what I know works well.

But saying E-10 is a good fuel is talking with blinders on.

Fuel economy goes down, rubber parts are affected whether or not any one else seems to think so.

As for sealing the tanks with the gas cap, most of these old rigs use a vented gas cap. Not usually a problem as long as the vehicle is run regularly.

But if you've not had problems with E-10 fuel, you indeed have been quite fortunate.

The open/closed jar experiment is incomplete unless you also have a second set with ethanol free gas in them started at the same time side by side.

Denny likely chose to only use two jars because he only has but so much room on his work bench for all of the now loose, salvaged nuts and bolts with which he can't seem to part. (I tease only because I too am similarly afflicted.)
'Peachy'

I have the same problem but I'm envious of Denny because he has a lot of neat, cool, useful "stuff".

Nope, both wrong. Always a corner at one of the bench's where
you can shove somethin' over. And the fuel in question was E-10
and it's hydroscopic affinity to absorb moisture out of thin air.
I have since I started this, thought of a couple more scenarios.
Not to late since I'm only a day into it, but I'm gonna add a
jar that has been Sta-Bil'ized. And since I've got more
Smucker's jars than I well ever use for nuts and bolts, I'm
going to make another matching set and place them out in the
direct sun this summer. Also gonna make one with the lid on it
but just a hold punched in the top to allow it to stabilize
with the relative humidity but not evaporate out so fast.
Should be interesting to see how it turns out.

Oh, I gotta throw this in also. I haven't used my Echo chainsaw
since last summer. Just parked it on the shelf with E10 fuel
from the middle of the summer in it. I had to cut off a 6x6
yesterday and one pull with the choke on and a second one with
the choke off and she came to life just as she always has and
ran just fine.
I wish I could master the videos like Gus has done to better
show that this isn't BS but I really haven't had any problem
with E10 even when it's a year or more old.

Now I can't let it dye with out saying, Roy ya sound like you've
had your share of problems with your fuel and I do feel for you
guys down there in the south. But we indeed must be quite
fortunate up here in Northern Illinois cus that's all they've
been selling in the service stations for decades now up here.
And I've never seen a car, truck, motorcycle, lawn mower,
tractor sitting off the side of the road in all these years,
nor have I heard any average operator complain about the way
their vehicle ran on the gas they just pumped into their
vehicle. Seems the only ones that I've heard complaints from are
the guys that are constantly tinkering with their engines and
blaming the problems on the fuel.
DG

The problem I had was from when I let the truck sit without driving for 12 weeks

...bad gas...

...bad gas...

...bad gas...

Now this happened the first summer I had the truck running. I let the truck sit in the garage over the summer without starting it. Temp's over 110.

Since that happened I now put stabilizer in the summer when I don't drive that much and I make it a point to start and drive the truck a least every week. I try to put fresh gas in.

The key with the new gas is to drive. At least in my area.

Interesting article.

http://injectorrepair.com/ethanol-problem/

I let me 42 Ford still since last September, fired it up for the first time on June 2nd. Not a single issue.

The gas in the pulsator dome was caramel, and I after I primed the carb, it started on the second rotation.

I just don't see the huge problem with ethanol fuel.


HERE IS AN API REPORT ON ETHANOL FUELS What's curious is that some engines failed even with E0 (ie pure gas!) and they never stated WHAT motors were used... just 'test engines'.

Most failed emissions, but others failed valve wear and compression. But its unclear if these were production motors or 'test case' motors. One test motor was noted as the design was 'not appropriate' for the test.

I drained my tank.It was clean in there,no residue of any kind.Cleared out the fuel lines and rebuilt the carb.While doing that I discovered that the power piston was frozen in it's bore. I freed that up and put it all back together with a filter before the carb. I poured in 5 gallons of "real" gas from a local station that sells it.Fired up the truck and adjusted things.
This morning I started it up again and headed down the road. I drove all the way into town,turned around and came back home feeling like a 6 year old on Christmas morning. It runs and drives beautifully.I need to tighten up the front end a little but I'm on the road finally.Put 6 miles on my brand new odometer.
My plan is just to not use fuel with alcohol in it.I don't need to and my truck doesn't like it.---Jack

Denny - I am aware of the nickel content of the monel steel. I was very surprised at the rust on a steel valve the first time I saw the rust. Since then, have seen MANY more.

And I can assure you that I did NOT paint the little brown spots on the valve in the picture

We have tried unsuccessfully to locate a supplier for triangular shaped monel steel in order to manufacture these valves for those who still think they are better. And yes, I am aware that the Rochester B used a square valve, which will work for low fuel demand; but the triangular valve is necessary (or machine feed holes in the seat) for larger or performance engines. The fuel flow past the square valve is insufficient for that type of engine. We can acquire the square material but the cost is ridiculous.

The effect of ethanol on neopreme seems to be that the neopreme will "harden" if exposed to ethanol and then allowed to dry. This effect will kill the neopreme accelerator pumps because the skirt of the pump can no longer flex, but does not harm the sealing property for a fuel valve. This is just one of the reasons why we try to inform enthusiasts that their best form of preventive maintenance is to start the engine at least once per week, preferably more often than that.

Jon.

Bean running a simple experiment since June on the E10 fuel that
we have around these parts.
All the jars were filled to the same level. Working from the
left is fresh fuel bought in June, 2014, in a sealed jar. The
second is fuel bought in the fall of 2013 in a sealed jar. The
third is fuel bought in the fall of 2013 in an open jar. All
three kept inside. The fourth is fuel bought in 2013 in a
sealed jar, the fifth is fuel bought in 2013 in a vented jar,
the last two were left outside in direct sunlight
from the beginning of the test:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/156934846
There is no sign of separation, there is no sign of water
absorption, there is no sign of residue in the fuel that
has evaporated.

DG

I haven't seen any effect in my old trucks, they just start right up after sitting for a while. Those old 235's seem to just want to run. On the other hand, our wakeboard boat, with a 350 inboard, LS3 engine runs really rough every time fuel sits 3-4 weeks....always with stabilizer. I'm going to start using that green ethanol stabilizer to see if it helps. Interesting experiment thought Denny, a real head scratcher.

Only reason I did this was because I'm always hearing about how
the E10 absorbs water, or separates or leaves residue behind
when it evaporates or a dozen other problems guys blame on the
fuel.
One thing that I didn't do is fill a steel, an aluminum and Die
cast cup with some to see how long it would take them to
corrode. Of course it's kind of hard to find cups made of each,
but that's all for another day.

I'm not saying that it doesn't have it's problems,
just that I feel from my experience that they are
grossly blown out of proportion.

dg

I've never had an issue with months old gas. The problem I had was with 20 YEAR old gas. I agree that the makers of fuel stabilizers probably make the issue to be more dire than it really is in most cases.

The only month old gas in the test Richard was the single jar on
the left. The rest are all from around this time, maybe a
little later, last fall.
And with out going back and rereading six pages of comment, I
believe there were warnings about not using E10 more than a
few months old.
DG

For those of you using Stabil in E10, either buy the new stuff that is made for alcohol, or the marine grade, or use a double dose of the old stuff.

After reviewing Denny's jars of fuel I believe I would side with him. I too have seen "bad gas" in different application but feel that the problem came from contact with other materials to create the issue. Contamination from dirty fuel tanks, water in tank from time or cold storage when tank wasn't put away full, old rubber fuel lines, decomposing old fuel filters or cork gaskets. I still use Sta-bil but not as worried as I use to be.

Real world experience



Could of been a bad batch out the pump I don't know.

That red cap jar looks close to what I found. Wonder if that gas would start anything?

My down time is opposite from many of you. I park mostly in the summer and drive all winter.

I start the truck more often now and try to add fresh gas over the summer.

DADS, re Dennys test samples and your experience, note that our tanks are vented to the atmosphere, like that red cap jar that was in the sun so subjected to heating and variation in day/night temps .... obviously variations in what folks experience are variations in their exact equipment and environmental conditions

one way to deal with extended down time is to always top off the tank, apply an unvented cap, use the shut off at the tank, then run the engine until the carb is dry - what I do with seasonal small motor things

Bill

Thanks. That's good advise and makes sense

I tossed out a 1 year old gas tank because of that mucked up gas.
Hard lesson learned

Around here on the pumps there is a disclosure on them. Certain times of the year fuel may contain ?% of ethanol. I don't remember if its summer or winter?

That was the only time it happened.

I guess Roy and I are the only ones with issues. I have a chevy II with a totally new fuel system (tank, sending unit, hardlines, fuel pump, carb). Rebuilt 327, 4 speed. Let it sit couple years as life's events got in the way, even had Stabil in the tank, and when I decided to get back on it, noticed some black goop under car. checking fuel lines, soft and spongy, stinky tank, drained it and something akin to stinky bad molasses came out (remember, new tank). Went through 2 gallons laquer thinner cleaning adn cleaning out lines, replaced fuel lines, dang, fuel pump affected too, but carb was ok.
This was in closed outbuilding, no heating/cooling and Alabama diurnal cycling.
Same thing happened couple years later to my 390 galaxie. New tank/sending unit, new fuel lines, new pump, new carb, fooled around and lost track of time and let it sit too long, again with the soft swollen fuel lines and stinky molasses gas, so cleaning again and again, rubber diaphram in fuel pump shot.
I have a friend who does small engine repair, says he sees alot of small engine issues with little rubber lines that sit in fuel tanks swelling shut or getting soft and pulling shut and they won't run. Back to my Galaxie, carb (previously rebuilt) shot too, so I ordered a new Holley 600, gee the tag hard wired to it said "use of ethanol blend voids any warranty". If there is no problem, why the tag?
Now, I must admit, was recently given a Lebaron by a buddy, it has LOTS of issues, drove it home on 3 year old gas that seems to have no problem. Maybe it is my 2 cars being stored in unheated/uncooled building and whereas his Lebaron was stored in open air pole barn? don't know.
But, I am glad for you guys that have had no issues, but just becuase you haven't doesn't mean it isn't real. Maybe it's the blend happening at the tanks Roy and I buy from or where the Holley guys buy from? don't know. But, it is real.

They make a barrier hose now for fuel that is supposed to resist the effects of the ethanol.

Have they changed the rules on marine engines and ethanol fuel? Probably okay if you don't have a fiber glass tank. Or was that what the problem was? Not a boater and don't remember just what was happening with them.

I know every year I get the joy of replacing the little primer buttons on our push mowers and weed eaters. I watch the rubber fuel lines on my air cooled VW like a hawk and change them regularly. Too many engine fires due to hoses breaking down.

I'm glad others aren't having the issues I've seen around here. Could be we really are getting bad gas while everyone else is doing okay.

I do know my VW Passat would average 32 mpg on unleaded regular fuel, but when I could no longer get that around here and had to buy the E-10, my mileage went to 26mpg. Not sure how that is an improvement. Others say their mpg hasn't dropped. So it has to be the blend we're getting rather than the ethanol content. Hmmm... something to ponder.

The marine issue is the damage to fiberglass tanks...quite expensive to fix if the tank is built in.

I have a number of small engines here in FL. I finally added a fuel shut off to each one. Run the carbs dry, and then siphon the fuel out of the tank before storage. I even bought spare carbs to speed up the repair process when necessary.

The only automotive engine I had sitting for several years was a 440 Chrysler. I did add some Stabil. It always started and ran. Eventually I even sucked out most of the gas, and ran it through my lawn tractor, which oddly enough, has never had a problem.

Alcohol packs less energy than gasoline, and will definitely eat into your mileage. No dispute there. E85 can cause a 30% drop. Some states banned alcohol in summer because of the vapor lock problems.

I'm very thankful they built a new gas station about 8 miles away that stocks non ethanol, it is only 87 octane but better than nothing. That is all I run in my carburated and lawn stuff now. My brother ran a small business for couple years of lawn care, he said it was amazing how much better his small engines cranked on ethanol free gas. I still use ethanol on my fuel injected cars and will even use it on my mower, because I don't put in much and usually run the tank out in a week or so. I checked mileage on my daily driver, a Marquis, and my mileage was same on ethanol versus non, but the car felt like it had more power on non ethanol. Just some more scattered thoughts from a scattered mind....

At least I understand the "scattered mind" LOL

Guys, isn't there an issue to consider when 'running the carb dry?' If done with any frequency, what effect will this have on the fuel pump? Isn't the fuel pump cooled by the fuel running through it? I understand that the pump would run dry for a very short time. But still... Also, if running the carb dry is the way to go, what about the pump plunger (e.g., the Rochester B)? I wonder about letting the leather dry out. And does running the carb dry clear out all of the fuel, or does it leave some which will then turn to varnish? Maybe there is something one can spray into the carburetor when parking the truck for some time? Otherwise, it seems to me that there is no other choice than to remove the carb, clean it out, and oil the plunger. Somewhat tedious if one ends up having to do this anytime the truck will be parked for several weeks, etc. -Alden

Any cooling at the pump would only be for modern electrical high pressure pumps. That is why they are in the tank. Good question about the accelerator pump..any thoughts?

Alden, I have never witnessed the problem on an automotive carb. Leather is pretty resilient. However, with the small engine carbs we have been also discussing, it can be a problem. You take your choice....dried out paper gaskets and seals, or gummed up carburetors. Luckily most small engines today have rubber and plastic gaskets instead of paper.

Steve H, thank you. Shows you what I know about pumps! I will have to find the time to better familiarize myself with my mechanical pump. Obviously, the oil in the block adequately tends to the pump's internal parts. As for keeping the leather in the accelerator pump from drying out, I am hoping that, except for rather long term parking, it should stay soft. I think if it be soaked in some oil during maintenance, that, along with it being somewhat deep in the carb, should keep it safe and sound. I intend on examining one of these leather plungers to see how difficult it would be to manufacture them at home. Hmmmm. I seem to recall my old lady doing some leatherwork recently. I will have to check out her crafts box when she goes out...