The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Bad gas

About 2 or 3 months ago I rebuilt my rochester one barrel carb.I put in a new fuel pump,cleaned out the tank,cleared all the fuel lines. Just today I took the bowl cover off to diagnose an unrelated problem and found some crud in my float bowl.There was a film built up on all internal surfaces and something that looks like dissolved cardboard in the bottom of the bowl. Could this be caused by using gas with 10 percent ethanol in it? I'm going to start using fuel stabilizer everytime I fill up.This truck sat for many years before I revived it. Maybe this stuff came off the walls of the fuel lines when the first gas in 30 years ran through it? Anyone else see this from the new fuel. I think I'd better get a filter in line soon.---Jack

How did you clean the tank? If you didn't get all of the old gas out of it you're lucky all you're getting is crud.

The tank was dry. I just cleaned any loose dirt out of it. Possibly there was residue on the inside of the tank. It just looked clean.

My '38 had been sitting for a bit less time than your truck. Nothing ran out of the tank but the fuel that had been left in it has turned to a varnish like substance. When I put fresh gas in it, it softened enough of the varnish that when I shut the engine off it re-gelled on the intake valves sticking them shut. I ended up with stuck valves and bent pushrods. You may need to acid clean the tank and line it then clean or replace the lines. If a replacement tank is available you'd likely be better off going with a new tank just to be safe. I didn't have a replacement option. Good luck with it whichever way you decide to go.

Not a fan of Ethanol in these old trucks. However, I really doubt that is what caused the problem. Install a fuel filter at the gas tank outlet and another between the fuel pump and carb. Good luck.

how old was the gas?

The gas wasn't old. I'm going to clean the system out again.Tank to carb.New kit,flush all lines and add two filters.
What can I put in the tank to dissolve anything that may be left?I'm not replacing it. Besides being dirty it is a good tank.No rust anywhere on it.

Tiny,what kind of acid? Line it with what?---Jack

Some folks don't realize the ethanol in the fuel acts like a cleaner to some extent. If there was any crud left in the tank or lines, the ethanol fuel could have cause some of it to loosen and be drawn in.

My limited high school chemistry is not up to the task of figuring what and how the stuff in my tank became mobile. Nor is it up to understanding why some of that stuff is dissolved and some is just very fine bits, while some of it is flakes like rust. There is no rust in my tank and it was washed with soap and water. It was removed and shaken and scraped where I could reach. It has gotten ...better? Sort of, over time. Some one with way more knowledge than me explained that Alcohol is a very different kind of solvent from Gasoline. It reacts in different ways with the components that make up modern fuels. After all of that, I have used two filters and a screen to help make my truck a daily driver. A bit of metal screen rolled into a tube and inserted into the outlet tube far enough to protrude into the tank itself. That stopped the out let from clogging and saved me from pulling it out again, and again. A filter at the fuel pump to keep the crud from damaging the pump. And another filter at the carb to make me feel netter. 5000 miles and it works. I have had to pull the filter at the pump and clean it. So I carry a spare in the glove box. Can be done in less than 1 minute and I am back on the road. The dissolved Varnish is why I pulled the tank in the first place. I was lucky, in a way. It stuck the float and never got to the valve stems. Still messy and not fun when I had just got on the road after a 12 year slumber for this truck. So the number of options seems to be, 1. Replace tank (money) 2. Clean tank (how?, and more money) 3, Use filters ( still not free) Any other thoughts out there?

Jack here's a site that shows different places in the USA that sells ethanol free gas.
http://pure-gas.org/
Brian

I've used two types of acid over the years. The tank cleaning/lining kits you buy use phosphoric acid, the same stuff they put in soda pop. It's slow but pretty safe to use. On my '38 I used muriatic acid which is MUCH faster but also much more dangerous to use. It'll eat your hide if you get some splashing on you. With the phosphoric acid you just rinse the tank when clean, let it dry then pour the coating in, move & tumble your tank to get all the surfaces coated, drain out any excess and let it dry. FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS TO A "T". When you cut corners you often have product failure and the lining comes off. For my '38 I killed the muriatic acid with a strong soda water rinse, rinsed with plain water & let it dry. I then lined with Redkote. I bought three times the recommended amount to do the coating. My reasoning for buying so much was that you might be able to coat the whole thing with one quart but it takes a long time and it's easy to miss areas when you can't see everything inside the tank. With three quarts it spread much faster and was more likely to reach every surface. I simply put the extra into an air tight container for future use. It's been going on ten years with no problems from the liner yet.

Not 'bad gas' per se, but yes, it was the gasoline.

Your rochester carb probibly lost its nice protective coating years ago (its now a dull grayish color, right?) that's the pot metal (not really zinc, more like 'zinc-y stuff') at that is susceptible to damage by ethanol.

ALL GAS is ethanol free right up to the point they pour it in the tanker for local delivery. Its at that final transfer station they dump the garbage that is ethanol into it to get whatever E rating they are required to sell.

This is, in addition to what others have said.. the ethanol WILL 'clean' your tank an all that gunk will make it to your fuel bowl and settle out... but most of it is the direct attack on the metal by the ethanol.

Adding an inline filter is still needed, but it won't stop pot metal, die cast carbs from getting damaged.

"Materials NONCOMPATIBLE with fuel ethanol
Metallic: Zinc, brass, lead, and aluminium Ternary (lead-tin-alloy)-plated and steel lead-based solder"

This is exactly what you are seeing, right? Scroll down to see the pics.. white crust fuzzy stuff... that's the result of the acid

One of those is right down the road from me back here in rural Maine.93 octane though. Must me pricey.

I wonder if I could coat the carb with that tank sealer stuff.

Don't understand all the problems that keep getting blamed on
pump gas, gasohol (E-10), old gas and on and on.

I just got back from the first run of the season with my
stock '50, 3600. In fact I’d actually put about 60miles on her
by the end of the day. She hasn't run but twice since before
thanksgiving of last year other than to crank her up a couple
of times to make sure the battery wasn't dead. And then it
wasn't even long enough to warm her up properly.

Had a buddy stop by yesterday, who I’d meet last year because of
the Stovebolt. He was helpin' out with a car show/fund raiser
that took place today. Because of his prompting me, when I woke
up I decided to take the day off from my ground keeping chores
to see if I could get the old gal road worthy enough to take to
the show this morning. Since she’d been sitting for the last
seven or eight months I wouldn’t have been surprised if I ran
into some sort of problem. I’d only kept a gallon or so in the
tank over the winter, just enough to fire up the engine if I
needed to, because I knew I would have to drain it to fix a fuel
leak. I'd had a small leak from the shutoff where the stem
packing had deteriorated from my 2005 rebuild of it. The slow
drop by drop puddle of fuel had, over the winter left a brown
sticky snake like trail up to the front of the truck. This
caused me to wonder about the condition inside the fuel system.
So I drained out the fuel, got the new packing installed, added
a new see-thru throw away NAPA fuel filter, replaced the
exhaust packing that had blown out last year, checked the earl
and water and dumped the gallon of old fuel that I’d drained
out earlier back in. Then from the barn, I found a couple of
gallons more of fuel that was left over for the mowers from
last fall.
Time to see how she was gonna react to all this old bad fuel.
After ten seconds or so of cranking, with my 6v system, which
had sat also all winter without a charger, some fuel made it up
to the carb and she popped right off.
I let it warm up till I got a needle movement on the temp gauge
and off I went to town to get a load of fresh fuel. I drove
around for a while first just to see how she was gonna run on
this ‘old’ fuel. Ran just fine, in fact, by now it was about
9:30 am and I hadn’t had my coffee yet so I ran up to McDonalds
and got some breakfast. No problem starting back up and I put
another 10 mile on her while I finish my Egg McMuffin before
turning into the Shell station.
My conclusion: Blaming fresh gas, gasohol (E-10), old gas and on
and on for a poor running engine doesn’t wash in my experience.
I suspect that the blame lies elsewhere.
Just like to add a couple more bits of fuel to the fire. My two
large generators 5k & 7k, mowers and trimmers, saws and such all
start and run just fine with old E-10, which in some cases have
had the fuel in them literally for years. And I’ve been driving
my own vehicles since 1956 and have never in all this time run
into a problem that could be traced to the pump gas that I was
using.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

gotta agree with ya Denny, I've never had any problems that could be attributed to old gas, and I've been using E10 for decades .... made with good Canadian wheat tho, not corn

Bill

Could it be some has to do with the cooler weather you two may encounter?

Here in the Texas heat if you let that gas set up for six months you might as well break everything down because it will be gummed up.

Perhaps too is a formulation difference between areas.

Not sure what it is, but here in the 100 degree heat, it doesn;t take long the ethanol makes its presence known.

Roy, E10 is 10% ethanol, regardless of where it's sold .... and we get some hot weather here too, but humidity should have a greater effect, with the alcohol attracting water .... I do run the carb dry on small motors when I know they'll sit for a season, and keep the tank right full, to prevent any condensation laying on the fuel surface and starting a "rust ring" in the tank

Bill

The water that gets trapped in the gas causes both direct corrosion and also acid to from that causes further damage. So its not really the GAS itself but it is the largest contributor.

'Pure' gas would cause varnish if it dried out. Ethanol gas really doesn't have a varnish issue as the alcohol removes it.. but the water is a big problem.

If your carb is in good shape and still has a protective zinc-cad or other coating it's safe. But the carbs where the coating is gone (its not the shiny zinc, but the dull blue-gray color) can get damaged by the ethanol fuel.

Plus every state may or may not have all the pumps marked. A pump can be labeled (in PA) as 10% ethanol but it could pump 100% gas... some states have no pump marking requirements... so in all reality you may or may not be even getting 10% ethanol gas as not car REQUIRES it. On top of that you could be getting much more than 10% ethanol... there is no test at the pump to check it and (again, in PA) there is no certified sticker that says 'Yep, 10% corn'. Weights and measures only guarantees a gallon is a gallon.... but a gallon of what?

Small engines have had some problem with the ethanol blend gasoline.

http://www.stihlusa.com/information/articles/gasoline-guidelines-outdoor-power-equipment/

Denny, there's quite a difference in months "old" gas and 20-30 year old gas that I refer to. I've had no issues with months old gas but the 25 year old gas that was left in my '38 created huge issues for me. The part of the original poster's question that I was replying to: "Maybe this stuff came off the walls of the fuel lines when the first gas in 30 years ran through it?"

Exactly correct, but some states have slightly different blends than others besides the ethanol. I do the same with my small engines ..... run them dry when I'm through with them. Gotta keep an eye on the rubber hoses too.

Just curious, if there is nothing wrong or harmful about Ethanol why do they make specially formulated rubber fuel lines just for it? Just to make more money from us country bumpkins who want to change them?

Martin, there may be 2 formulations of rubber on the shelf, "E" or "non-E", but I've never seen that, what I've experienced is that 20, 30, 40 year old rubber parts [even NOS] don't stand up to use as long as current production - and the thing that's the most 'harmful' to rubber is ozone

the fact that older formulations of rubber don't stand up as well doesn't mean the E is 'harmful' - I've found modern formulations of rubber work better and last longer in all applications, like wiper blades and tires and brake hoses

Bill

pfarber--- Is there any way to recoat an old carb?I was thinking about plugging off ports and using tank sealer.Is that a dumb idea?---Jack

CJ - here is an article I did years ago on carburetor finishes. PLEASE READ THE WARNINGS!!!:

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Carburetorfinishes.htm

Here is an article on carburetor recalibration if you are forced to use ethanol:

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Ethanoluse.htm

Personal use - I have modified my car and truck carburetors to the point, where, with the exception of worse mileage, I don't have carb problems.

SMALL ENGINES ARE AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT STORY! All of my lawn & garden tractors (air-cooled), in addition to burning more fuel, don't really like to run in direct sunlight if the temperature exceeds 90 degrees F. The engine starts loosing power, and I head for the shade. Mow in the shade for 10 minutes, and I can get back in the sunshine. Maybe at my age, I am not supposed to mow in the sunshine in 90 + temperatures

I have tried every "miracle in a can" sold by the local auto parts stores. The only result I can ascertain is a transferral of funds from me to the parts store. Let the mower (or weed eater, or chain saw, or whatever) set for 3 months, and have the joy of rebuilding the carb; and I detest small engine carbs! My solution - I am slowly replacing the weed eaters, chain saws, etc. with electric ones. That way I only have to keep the generator running, and since it runs more often, has seemed to solve the issue.

For those of you that have experienced no problems, I am happy. But I can tell you professionally that at least 40 percent of the "carburetor problems" customers call about these days are a direct result of todays fuel.

Jon.

Leave the tank sealer out of the tank,and especially the carburetor. Nothing but trouble, dealt with that stuff for years in the motorcycle industry. Sooner or later it WILL break loose and cause problems.

Yeah, all I know is, after a year in storage, two of my 7 trucks gas was bad. It wasn't bad because I say so, it was bad because it smelled terrible and had a very dark amber look to it. Ethanol is a bio fuel and not only does it reduce your gas mileage, it also pollutes your fuel system if left to sit more than a year. Mine went to crap after a year in a completely environmentally controlled 75 degree +/- 3 degree shop.

Moral of the story.. NO more ethanol.. only real gas and then be very very cautious that you not just start your vehicle, but drive it every year.. get the tank sloshing a bit. After the misery I went through cleaning that disaster up, I only leave a few gallons in it when sitting.

I know people who have destroyed lawn mowers, weed whackers, etc etc from this issue. It had never been an issue before... say 5 years ago.. then it ALL changed. No idea why.

My new answer to this problem is as follows:

1) Get an empty 5 gallon gas can. Dedicate it to the rotation of gas in your vehicles. Leave less than half of that in any given tank.

2) Put a glass fuel filter at the output of your tank. This allows you to keep an eye on the color as well as eliminates the worry of crud from your tank entering the fuel pump.

3) Make sure the gas tank draincock is working properly.

I am sure more of you have other ideas as well.

I've posted this picture before

12 week old gas

Caused me lots o problems a few summers ago

I'm with Denny on this one. My truck sometimes sits 1-2 months, sometimes is driven twice per week. I buy gas wherever I'm at when I run low, never add any additive. I've been doing this for about 14 yrs and never had a problem.
I have my dad's 1967 lawn tractor that is on its 3d engine but with the original carb that has never been apart. This carb sat with gas in it for about 10 yrs before I put it on the 3d engine. All I did was empty out the old gas, put it on the replacement engine and start it up. I now use it with a garden cultivator and it starts on the first crank.
I think there is as much erroneous ethanol information out there as there is correct info.

I'm convinced that stuff in the carb is not debris from elsewhere in the system.I got a new carb kit coming. I'm going to drain the tank,clear out the lines and clean out the carb.I'm going to install two filters. One at the tank and one at the carb.Then I'm going to find a source of alcohol free gas around here. As to the tank,that depends on what I find inside it when I empty it.Unless it looks drastic I'll avoid the prepping,sealing step. I hear too many negatives about it to jump right at it.Good thread.---Jack

You all have been very lucky if you've not experienced any trouble with the ethanol fuels.

Keep driving long enough, you will.

The fuel here in our neck of the woods will go bad fast. As another poster said it gets dark in color, and gums up everything.

Rubber tipped needles in the carbs are a no-no. When I rebuild a carburetor I have to hunt to find a kit with a metal tipped needle, and even then if it's not run regularly it will mess up the carb.

Rubber fuel lines get hard and brittle. Seen a few engine fires because the rubber line broke. I check the fuel lines every 6 months and replace as needed.

The barrier hose helps when you can get it.

Fuel mileage suffers, rubber parts fail sooner, goes bad sooner. Nothing good about the ethanol fuels.

My 49 3100 has a new gas tank, clean hard lines, new fuel pump w/glass bowl, rebuilt Rochester B and a glass bowl filter at the carb inlet.
After getting it roadable I've run Shell regular w/10% ethanol for approx 6K miles without problem. It sits Mon-Fri but gets 75-150 miles each weekend.

Both bowls stay clean and clear except the 2 times I used Marathon straight gas. Both bowls clouded up and my mileage dropped by nearly 2 MPG for those tankfuls.
The 216 avg's 12 MPG on stock 411 gears.
I went back to Shell at my favorite gas station. It does a brisk business which may contribute to the fuel being "fresher".

I've read several posts re. Marathon's fuel quality being questionable so it could have been a 2 bad batches of 100% gas that were a week apart but in my case my old 216 ran better on Shell's 10% ethanol regular than Marathons 100% gas regular....

[quote=Roy Rodgers]

Rubber tipped needles in the carbs are a no-no. When I rebuild a carburetor I have to hunt to find a kit with a metal tipped needle, and even then if it's not run regularly it will mess up the carb.

/quote]

Roy - it is not the rubber-tip that causes the problem with the new needles and seats!

The issue is that because the general public demands the cheapest possible price regardless of the quality; the two companies that make the needles and seats have eliminated the "staking" procedure from the manufacturing process. The staking process eliminated the sharp edge of the orifice of the seat caused by the broaching of the orifice. Since the sharp edge is now still present, it can actually cut the neopreme and cause the neopreme to fail.

You can duplicate the staking result by the use of a check ball from a quadrajet, a drift punch, and a hammer.

IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE THE OLD MONEL STEEL NEEDLE IS BETTER:

We can generally furnish a kit with the monel steel needle (at a higher cost, as we have to machine the needle).

Monel steel is a steel which is somewhat higher in nickel content BUT THE ETHANOL WILL, OVER TIME, RUST THE NEEDLE!!! A rusty needle will NOT seal. The neopreme IS more reliable on the needles.

Jon.

I'll have to take your word on that. I agree about the staking. But I've seen problems with the neopreme so I try to avoid them.

Roy - take a look at the needle on the right

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Steel_needles.jpg

Jon.

Yes sir. Looks like two needles. One rusty, one not.

I will not say a lot about this subject except I agree with Denny and Harold on this. I have ran E-10 for many years thru farm tractors, cars, new and classic pick up trucks, lawn mowers , 2 cycle chain saws and weed whips ETC with out issues. IF and that little word is HUGE, You start out with old dirty fuel storage tanks and dirty gas cans, gas tanks on the vehicles, YOU ARE GUARANTEED to have problems as Ethanol will remove old varnish, crud, ect and release it to foul up your fuel filters, and carburetors. Also, Keep fuel containers tightly closed as Ethanol will absorb moisture from the outside air and that is the cloudiness you see in the fuel filter picture posted earlier in this discussion. Try this as an experiment. Take 2 baby food jars and fill both with E-10 or even higher E content. Close one tightly with its cover. Leave the second jar's lid off, exposed to the atmosphere. Report back what you see in a few days depending on the relative humidity . Once you have a fuel storage system and storage tanks cleaned you WILL NOT have any further problems with Ethanol.Other than a small decrease in fuel mileage, ethanol is good for this country's economy. It puts Americans to work rather than foreigners. It keeps more family farmers in business who purchase YOUR PRODUCTS. I am now getting into touche territory so end of my rant. Jerry