The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Turn Key - no cranking - all gauges go to 0

I starter my 54 3100 a few weeks ago and let it run after a cold winter here in NJ. It ran fine until I shut it off about 10 minutes later. I then went to try and start it again as I usually do and - nothing. I turned the key to on and all the gauges come up and give a reading. If I press the floor button or turn on the headlights the gauges drop down to their lowest setting. If I turn the key off and wait 30 seconds or so, I can turn the ley to on and I get the same results. I had the battery on charge for a few days but there was no change. I have not dug any deeper into this but just to let you know, the battery is only about 9 months old. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I am the third owner of the well taken care of 3100 with just 54K miles.
Mike

bad starter [shorting out] or real bad connection at battery and/or starter terminals

Bill

Classic symptom of dirty battery cable terminals- - - - -there's too much resistance to carry starter current but enough of a connection to power the small current draw items like dash lights or gauges. As soon as a starter current demand hits, it wipes out everything.

Pull both battery cable terminals, and do a thorough cleaning of the battery posts and the inside of the cables with a wire brush tool designed for the purpose. I've gotten by with scraping the inside of the cable terminal with a pocketknife and using a wire scrub brush on the posts, but the dedicated tool does a better job. Once the terminals are reconnected tightly, put a little Vaseline or wheel bearing grease on the outside of the terminal to retard corrosion.
Jerry

Thanks for the quick responses. I will try cleaning both ends of the two cables and see if it leads my to a possible bad starter. It is always better to try the fix that has $0 first! Thanks!

Mike, don't forget to check the battery. I've seen them last only two days, and have seen them last 10 years. But I would guess what Jerry said, bad or dirty cable connections.

I have had very good luck with using never-seez on battery connections. There are several benefits, and no down side. It is anti-corrosive, quite conductive, and the bolts come off easily the next time you need to take them apart. There can be corrosion in several places, at the battery, the ends of the cables (both ends, both cables) the ground strap. One other thing you might want to do is keep the top of the battery clean, as the battery charges it gasses, and leaves something on top of the battery that tends to help make that wonderful white cauliflower looking stuff. (I used to spend a lot of time tending to batteries on ships, no I mean a lot)

You can buy some No-Lox from Ideal or Ox-Gard from GB. It'll be in the electricall section at most home improvement and hardware stores.

We use it in the electrical field on aluminum terminals and aluminum cable. It has the consistancy of anti-seize. I've taken panels apart that were installed 40 years ago and that stuff is still on the joints. It's good stuff, a little goes a long way. If you can't find it, some di-electric grease or white lithium is good too.

Chris

Sorry, I have not had time to try cleaning the connections. I will get it done in the next few days.

OK,
Today I had some time to get into this again. With the battery on slow charge for 5 days it reads about 6.9 volts. I disconnected, cleaned, and reconnected the 2 braded ground straps, and cleaned the starter and battery end of the positive cable. STILL, I turn the key and everything usually goes to zero. The battery reading stays constant though. It did turn over once but I wasn't ready for that and it was a quick crank as I lifted my foot from the floor button. One other time it did crank and I was ready. She fired right up. The battery did get down to 6.49 volts by the end of all this. I hate the thought of it being the starter. Any way to give it a good "in the truck" of bench check? Could this be some kind of relay. In the back of my mind I think it may be the starter windings.......

Not enough information. Are we dealing with a 6 volt battery here? If so, battery terminal voltage will be around 4.5-5.0 volts during cranking. As soon as the generator starts charging, the voltage should rise to 6.5-7.0 volts within a few seconds, and after several minutes of running at a fast idle, the voltage should stabilize at about 7.5V.

If you've got a foot-stomp starter, press the pedal and crank the engine with the ignition off for 15 seconds, and check the battery voltage while the engine is still turning. It should not drop below 4.5 volts during the test. Do not repeat the high-load test more than once every 30 minutes or so- - - -a starter runs in a virtual dead short condition, and it needs at least 20 minutes of cool down time after 30 seconds of continuous operation.

The best way to check your battery for full charge is to use a hydrometer on the electrolyte. Full charge specific gravity should be approximately 1.265. If the specific gravity is below 1.250, the battery needs recharging. Test all the cells- - - -the acid concentration should be approximately equal on all of them, within 10 points or so.

If the starter is refusing to crank, or doing so intermittently after a thorough cleanup of the cables and using a fully-charged battery, the problem is internal to the starter. Take it off the engine and find someone competent to rebuild it.

I have made the above reccomendations many times, and most people ignore me. This is the way I taught battery servicing and starting system diagnosis for 30+ years, and I can assure you the system works. Good luck!
Jerry

there's no relay involved, but might have a worn/damaged contact piece in the starter button, take the button box off and investigate, there's a heavy copper contact in there that can be turned over if it's fried along the sides

Bill

Hotrod, this truck had been stored in a steel shipping container for a few years and was subjected to a moist, lightless environment for a few years. When I bought it last fall all the brakes were frozen and I had to replace the ignition switch and clean several contacts to get her started again. I did drive it after a couple of months or careful corrective measures and parts including battery, points, condenser, plugs, wires, and the list goes on. Do you think it would be possible to clean the contacts in the starter? (Brushes, and any other contacts or just have it gone over) do you feel this would be a time to consider going to 12 volts or is that nt necessary? I thank you for the advice you have already provided.

Don't shoot me if this reply shows up twice. I tried to reply using my phone, but it didn't show up-----
Hotrod, This truck had been stored in a steel storage container for a few years offering no ventilation or light. When I bought it last fall, all the brakes were frozen. To get her running again, I replaced the ignition switch, plugs, points, condenser, plug wires, and went through the entire brake system. I did drive it about 10 miles in the mid fall before storing it for the winter. Do you think it would be possible to clean the brushes and other contacts in the starter or just go with the rebuild for reliability? Do you think going to a 12 volt system at this time would help in it's reliability?
Thanks for the advice you have already provided.

Red 58 -
This sounds like a great suggestion. I will try to get some time to take a look at that.

Sorry for the multiple replies. I didn't realize my topic had gone to a second page.

Under storage conditions like that, I'd definitely suggest a total cleanup of the starter. These starters aren't terribly complicated- - - -just a simple DC electric motor. The gear drive is mechanically actuated with the foot pedal, and the on/off switch is also mechanical- - - -just a heavy duty copper contactor that engages after the drive gear meshes with the flywheel Take the starter apart, shoeshine the commutator with a piece of non-metallic emery cloth, and make sure the brush springs have enough tension to keep the brushes tight against the armature. Replace the brushes if they're under about 3/8" long or show uneven wear. If the commutator has burned spots on individual bars, it's shorted and must be replaced. There's no good reason to go to 12 volts. A properly-maintained 6V system with a good battery will work well for a long time. Just don't have a stupid attack and put an 8V battery in it. That really creates problems! Have fun!
Jerry

I'm going to jump in here, if the gauges are still going to zero when you hit the starter, then you still have a connection problem.

If the battery voltage is staying the same and the gauges go to zero, that's a pretty good sign a connection some where is bad. Since you've cleaned the ground straps, another place to look might be the connection on the starter. Perhaps the connection there is what is bad.

Get in at dusk, turn the head lights on, then hit the starter. If they black out, not just dim a bit, then you still have a connection problem with the cables or the power into the amp meter.

Also, sometimes you can find this bad connection by having some one try to crank the truck at night while you watch under the hood. Should see a spark when the connection gives out due to the starter load.

There's also a chance you have a bad battery cable going to the starter.

Roy,
Last night I went out to the garage, turned on the headlights, had a digital meter on the battery and then turned on the key. OK so pay. Once I pressed the started floor button, the lights went off, but the meter made no change. I feel the ignition switch is OK. I am strongly leaning to the starter itself and not a batter, or ground cable or connection. I will find more time soon to pull the starter to do some bench testing. I did find a place 'genuinedealz.com' that will custom make any battery cable. I think they are usually making them for golf carts or marine applications. You can select the length, gauge, type ends, if you want extra insulation at the ends, an extra power lead, and the color of the wire insulator. A question on that is - Should the positive cable from the battery to the started be black or red (as original)? Would I want a 2 gauge or 2/0 gauge type cable on that? They list both.

If the battery voltage does not bottom out when the starter load goes on the circuit- - - -pay attention now- - - - -


YOU HAVE A BAD CONNECTION OR A BAD CABLE!




Don't waste time digging into the starter- - - -find the bad cable or the corroded connection.
Jerry

OK - I will recheck and replace the cables. I believe you!
Can the braded ground cables loose their effectiveness? I would replace them with the braded again for originality but I am just curious about that.

The braided ground cables can fail, but it's unlikely. The most common point of voltage loss or high resistance will be where the braid attaches to the lug terminal on the ends.

Here's the most effective way to find a bad connection- - - -turn the multimeter DC voltage scale to the lowest possible setting and touch one probe to one side of a connection, and the other one to the terminal or conductor right beside it. For instance: place one probe to the + battery post, and the other one to the terminal clamp on that same post. Have someone push the start pedal. ANY reading on the meter indicates how much voltage is being consumed to push the current through that specific connection. On a 6V system, the resistance of any particular connection should be less than 2/10 volt. Now, check the voltage loss from one end of the cable to the other- - - -one probe at the battery, the other at the end of the hot cable attached to the starter. NO voltage drop is acceptable in the cables, hot or ground. Check every connection and conductor from the battery, to the starter, and all the grounding points back to the starter negative post the same way- - - -each time attempting to crank the engine while you're checking a connection. When you find a big voltage drop across a connection or a conductor, you've isolated the source of the open circuit. I started doing those types of tests in the early 1960's, and spent over 30 years teaching automotive electrical diagnosis.

These are not idle pipe dreams- - - -I made a good living finding electrical gremlins after others had given up on the problems. Good luck!
Jerry

I am using a digital meter, so the readings should be easy to see. I will try to make these tests tomorrow night. I appreciate the lessons!
So what should the cable be to be correct - red or black?
ALSO - What is the difference between a 2 gauge and a 2/0 gauge cable? - (as listed on a web site)

Wire gauges get bigger as the numbers get smaller- - - -a "0" gauge is bigger than a "2", and a 2/0 cable is really big, just like "00" buckshot is bigger than #2 birdshot, etc. I like to use #0 welding cables for battery cables on 6V systems because there are hundreds of hair-fine conductors to make welder cables more flexible than battery cables. Since electricity supposedly flows over the surface of a copper conductor, the finer the individual conductors are, the less resistance the cable will have. Going bigger than #1 or #0 cable size is pretty much overkill on a stovebolt battery cable, even for 6V applications. The #4 cable used for 12 volt systems is too small, however.

Red insulation for the + cable just helps eliminate confusion when jump-starting- - - -it really makes no difference in the performance of the system whether the insulation is red or black. Have fun!
Jerry

If you still have the stomp starter, and you have good connections to it from the battery, it should turn the engine over whether any thing else works or not. If it won't even grunt, then the problem is between the battery and the starter or the grounds.

Since every thing else powers off the positive cable at the starter, my bet is the cable from the starter to the battery (+) is bad some where. Place your meter with the + lead on the cable at the starter, and the ground lead to the engine, and have some one step on the stater, the voltage will likely die.

I found one time where the braided cable mounts to the frame had rust under it, and then the cable from the frame to the engine also had rust. The guy had about pulled his hair out trying to find the bad connection. Cleaned those and it started up.

I do know if this was talked about yet but this is what happen to me.
I was driving down the road at 55 mph in my 6 volt 1954 Chevy panel 3 speed truck.
All of a sudden out of no where the truck just died.
I pulled over and shut off the key.
Then I switched the key back on, gas and amp gauge needles went in reverse.
I pushed the floor starter button, and the engine barely turned over.
A passer by stopped and we jumped the battery and the engine barely turned over.
I was not far from a small town so the passer by pushed me to a gas station.
The mechanic came out and he was stumped.
I crawled up under the passenger side of the truck, were the battery is located.
At first I didn't notice anything out of ordinary, then I looked up and bingo.
The positive side battery cable sheath had worn thru and the battery cable had welded itself to the frame.
A DEAD short.
I pulled the battery cable from the frame and taped it up.
By now the battery was pretty much cooked from all that welding.
The gas station mechanic had a wrecker with a nice 4 wood plank front bumper, with cut up rubber tires bolted to the wood planks.
That mechanic pushed me from one end of that small town to the other end at a high speed, then she finally fired up.
I stuck my hand out the window to wave off the mechanic and say thanks and kept going.
After another 40 miles I drove in the driveway and right when I did the generator and voltage regulator died.

Check to see if your positive battery cable is grounding out on the body or frame.
Or any hot lead. Mice like chewing on Sheath.

The new parts are all in the mail so watch for an update. New - positive cable, two braided ground cables, and other cooling system updates - not related to starting trouble.

Hotrod,
Even though my cables had good readings on for low resistance, I ordered new ground and more importantly, a new positive cable, 2 gauge. Wouldn't you know, she started right up and went to a nice calm idle as if to say - 'Thanks you so much, I will be good now'. I took her out for a 5 or so mile local drive as it has been almost 6 months since out on the road. This winter was a doozie! Thanks so much to everyone for the help. Now it is time to flush the coolant and put on some new hoses.

"I love it when a plan comes together!" Thanks for the update! Enjoy the ride!
Jerry

Thanks to all the help, I now can!