The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop '61 235 Major Water in Oil

I removed the head to replace the head gasket. Added Clifford 4bbl carb & Fenton Duals. Cleaned, Painted, Replaced rusty bolts, Fresh oil, Reassembled. Ran for few minutes to reinstall Dist., rough timing by sound.

When I started to refill the radiator, all the water went into the engine. Drained oil and water from pan and used a pressure checker on complete cooling system, result - not able to achieve any pressure - 0.

I'm at a complete lose as to how this could happen. It did seem that the gasket didn't exactly match either the head or the block.

Need advice on possible cause and troubleshooting/repair.

Thanks

What do you mean by "It did seem that the gasket didn't exactly match either the head or the block."

- The cylinder holes should have matched the holes in the gasket.
- The head bolts holes should have matched holes in the gasket.
- Water passage holes should have matched holes in the gasket.

What did not match?

There might be a useful code pressed into the block just to the rear of where the distributor goes into the block. You might as well try to confirm the year/application of your engine.

What brand and part number gasket set did you use?

Did you clean the old gasket and any corrosion from the block and head?

The water pump does not pressurize the cooling system... so if you had water going into the sump THAT FAST then something major was FUBAR.

The only way I can see a significant amount of coolant being put in the sump that fast is if it went down the lifter holes or an oil return hole in the head.

Did you use head gasket locating pins/bolts or just 'eye it up'?

My guess is that you didn't clean the old gasket, or somehow pinched the new one.

Even a 235 head gasket should inter-change with a 261. You NEED a 261 gasket,because the 261's head/block, incorporate "steam passages",for improved cooling.This,however wouldn't cause the problem that you have. Did you have a head gasket leak before you replaced the gasket? Could it be possible that you may have a cracked head?? If your gasket doesn't align with every bolt,oil,and cooling passage hole,it's NOT the correct gasket. Find the correct one,and make sure all mating surfaces are CLEAN!! Make sure you follow the torque sequence. Did you check each and every bolt,to make sure they're torqued to spec.? This could cause an internal leak,as well as lack of pressure. Make sure to re-torque after engine has warmed up,(at least 1/2 hour @ idle). Follow the advice,in the "Links" section,on how to "adjust them valves". Two settings of the train,adjusts all 12 valves! I tried it...I LIKE it!! I had a hard time doing it with the engine hot, though. by the time I got done,I had several blisters! you can adjust them with the engine cold,as well. give yourself an extra .0002/setting,to accomodate expansion clearance. Hope this helps!!

Good advice from wetwilly5757.

He might be off on the .0002" extra gap at cold (slipping in a digit is a common mistake).

The Shop Manual refer to a .005" variance when cold.

An extra .002-.005" inch would give sufficient cold settings.

That variance number must be put in the proper context. The only change from a hot/cold engine is the length of the valve stem. The push rod, lifter and rocker are not going to change as they are not subjected to any heat... so at most you can assume, worst case, is that you have a .005 MAXIMAL difference (aka variance) in stem length.

So if you set the cold gap at .006 (book number) it may close down to .001 due to expansion of the stem... and that's WORST CASE.

Set your valves cold, to the book number and you will not harm anything. It should get you a good idle. But the time you set the idle on the carb, adjust the dist for proper advance and make sure nothing is leaking you should be up to temp and then readjust the gap.

There is not a lot of mystery to this... nothing is going to break unless you did something horribly wrong. If you are unconvinced, set the cold gap to .008 or .010 cold.. you just need to be close enough to idle. Once you are at a good idle then break in the cam/seat the rings, put gas in it a drive.

Ditto on the additional clearance when cold. I added .004" for cold setting on my highly worn valve train and it was spot on when I rechecked when warmed up.

re, coolant leak. That much leak to the sump would seem to make it a direct leak and not going through the cylinders.

I have a 216 and have no experience w/a 235 so my following suggestion should be taken w/the proverbial grain of salt. (disclaimer)
My 216's valve train gets its oil from a copper tube that feeds through the waterjacket of the block. I think 235's have this same feed but am unsure. If so, did you happen to loosen either fitting on this pipe? They'll leak afterwards.
Otherwise it looks like you're going to have to pull the head and look for mismatched head to block holes, pinched head gasket or cracks.
Good luck
Dave

The later 235s used cast in the block galleys to deliver oil to the rockers. There is one drilled hole that needs a plug, and that's on the outside of the motor. There might be a crack anywhere... but from reading the OPs description I'm lead to believe that the amount of coolant being lost is significant and immediate.

Since its not coming out the exhaust, that leaves a crack in the water jacket or a head gasket that is not sealing properly.

I can't think of anything that penetrates into the block water jacket from the inside.

since all he did that could affect that portion of the job, was change head gaskets, I would have to venture a guess the problem would be there....Unless he somehow hooked the water line to a vacuum line, or a radiator hose to a crankcase breather. In either case the pan will have to come off unless you don't care about the cup of liquid that doesn't really come out when you drain the thing. (in the words of my co-worker, when you mix water and oil, you end up with "snot-like goop") But you will have to make sure the NEXT gasket DOES exactly match. Make sure the bolt holes are clean all the way to the bottom (bottom tap), and all the threads on the bolts are clear the entire length. The new gasket may not be as thick as the one removed allowing the bolts to not seat properly. Make sure the surfaces are flat, and clean. But in summation, it really, really sounds like you got the wrong gasket, or put it on upside down or something and have basically created a direct path to the oil pan. Oh and one more thing. I would get it fixed and if it works correctly, I would change the oil pretty much immediately upon verifying said correct operation. Modern oil formulations will tolerate a relatively large amount of water, but why take chances at our age?

Did you pressure check the Clifford intake? The new ones leak coolant right into the engine.

Maybe the original poster has figured this out. The last activity was at 2pm on 4/12 (the poster registered at 11:30am that day).

Keep speculating - it is interesting reading all the advice.

WOW, and they ain't cheap either....Sure seems like at some point, around some corner, a person might actually get what they are paying for.

Sorry for the slow response, Family situation.

To further clarify, I'm 68, been working on and with this truck for a long time. It's a '46 Chevy 1/2T, it's run fine for years and I just finished all the running gear. Chassis, brakes, transmission, shocks,springs..... It's has run fine, [b]NO LEAKS[/b].

Details: '46 1/2T Chevy, '61 235CID, later model? (mid 60s) 2T stake truck 4spd top-loader, 'Pumkin' from a '61 1/2T with better gears.

Why I did it...
I've been collecting parts since buying it in the early 70s. Including lots of NOS parts & custom,speed equipment.
Kids, no further explaination needed.
I now have all the time I need to 'get it right'. It had what appeared to be a broken stud for the exhaust manifold next to the firewall. After teardown it became apparant that it was a missing stud and filled with grease and dirt. Not possible to fix a broken stud in that location.

I wanted to get the balance of my 'goodies' installed, Fenten Headers, Clifford 4bbl intake, 390cfm Holley, better Alt brackets, Solid state Distrutor, and Air?

This wasn't my first rodeo, but I obviously made some mistakes. The teardown was uneventful except for my discovery about the stud. I was planning on doing a valve job, but inspection proved unnecessary. Cleaning all parts meticously, I'm a little compulsive about that. Painted the head and block with POR15 and took particular pains with the head/block matting surfaces. Finished them with a razor scraper.

Assembly, fresh oil, cleaned all holes, matched head gasket to both the head and block. This seemed odd, gasket holes for pistons, bolts, pushrods, all seemed correct. Gasket water jacket holes seemed much larger and odd shaped. The actual head/block holes were ~1/4", gasket holes 3/4". Everything torqued to specs. Completed the assembly and reinstalled the dist., had marked before removing, but took a few attempts to zero in a close adjustment. Running time during this was without coolant and probably about 2-4 minutes each time. doubt if it was an hour max.

Disaster--- pulled from garage to fill cooling system and checked all hoses, plugs, correct and tight. started filling and noticed water gurgling hard, thought I had missed a plug or? Checked below engine, no water, but with my oversize aluminum radiator I thought it was the water falling from the fill neck to the bottom of the radiator. I eventually saw that the level had reached the top, but something was wrong.

At this point, after crying a bit, I checked the dipstick and saw it was way over, and I had filled the oil pan with water. Pushed the truck back into the garage and reflected on my troubles.

Drained it all the next day after doing some research, no results. The engine hasn't been moved.

Besides the head gasket I had installed the brackets and spacers for putting an alt up high and compressor down low. And the water pump pulley was very diffiocult to remove, corrosion. I removed the upper spacer/bracket between the head and thermostat housing. All seemd fine. Never had any problems with first cut on valve setting, not an issue. Guess I'll pull the head and check the water hole alaignment. I can't imagine the water going into the block that quickly.

Further infornmation in my recent post,Water jasket holes most likely culprit, but mindboggling that it filled so quickly. I will check eng/head castings for year and post findings on that and gasket set soon.

Matting surfaces like a mirror. head located during install with studs made from longer bolts, didn't appear to be the issue.

No coolant to the exhaust manifold on this model. Yet!

I'd suggest having the head pressure tested to be sure you don't have a leak into the cooling system such as an internal crack, etc. Ditto for the block, but that can be checked by simply pouring water into the cooling system with the head removed. If the crankcase is filling by simply pouring water into the cooling system, you've got a HUGE leak somewhere!


Where are you located in Alabama? I'm in south Tennessee, just above Huntsville.
Jerry

NW Huntsville, Dellrose, TN, about 40 miles from me.
I don't expect to find any cracks. Never leaked before and has not been run long enough to develope one. Never ran the engine after the mess with filling the radiator with water. And that was just to rinse out loose crap that might have entered the system during the 'fix'.

When I do something like replace a head or rebuild, I just fill with water and leave out the anti-freeze. That way if I have a leak, no big deal. Once all is checked out then I drain and replace with water and anti-freeze. Not saying something got too hot, just don't see what running with no water would buy you.

Dennis

My plan exactly, I always plan on some minor problems and I don't waste anti-freeze either. The water was just to run long enough to check for leaks and make final adjustments before hitting the road. Unfortunately, I had a leak!!

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with running it with no water. It IS a water cooled engine after all. I can't see it being a leak in the intake or crack in the head, even with no rings the pistons wouldn't allow water to "gurgle" down that fast. It nearly has to be a LARGE gaping crack somewhere in the block or somehow the gasket intersects water and oil somewhere. I'm not exactly sure which evolution the '61 is as far as rocker oiling, but there may be something there.

It's obvious we can't help if our suggestions and troubleshooting tips are being rejected without any investigation. A "wrong" size coolant hole in a head gasket won't fill a crankcase with water in a matter of a couple of minutes. There's a BIG hole in the water jacket somewhere.
Jerry

I'm not rejecting anyone's advice. But do you really believe I caused a massive crack by running a 'dry' engine for no more than a minute or two over a 16 hr work period for no more than a minute each time? It never even got warm to the touch. And was allowed to completely cool between each of 3 to 5 tries to get the best rough dist. timing.

I agree with brokenhead. something major is wrong. A crack? I don't believe it, but it isn't impossible, but it would have to massive to allow the water to drop to the pan as fast as I filled the radiator. The only thing I have ever seen like that was an engine that completely threw a rod.

For Hotrod Lincoln - I agree, to drop that much water that quickly. It has to be massive and probably visable from across the garage (after teardown). That will be the prime area that I will explore. First is to positively ID the block, head, and gasket kit.

I also wantd to clearup any misconceptions about what happened before adding water until now. The engine was stone cold (not touched for 14 hrs). Was pushed out of garage and blocked. water was added, pushed back into the garage, drained oil & water. Inspected, pulled valve cover and side cover - no water. Still sitting there - not touched. Doing research.

For all - I'm not disregarding anyone's help. I have too much respect for the members on this forum. Even though I'm the fresh kid here as far as membership, I have been a 'lurker' for decades.

I will admit this isn't my highest priority right now. Everyone has given me ideas about possible areas to explore. And I might be wrong about a crack, but does anyone who has offered advice truly think I managed to cause a massive crack? It will be explored, but I maintain it would have to fist-sized. The water dropped as fast as just pouring out of the bucket on the ground.

I promise to ID the suspect parts within the next 2 days and start the teardown next week.

Please have a little patience with me. Thanks for the consideration and for the assistance you have freely offered.

I understand, I like my truck, but it isn't really a major life priority. I just come here in the mornings before work. The reason I am saying crack, is unless there is something you haven't mentioned, because you forgot, just plain missed, or didn't think it would be applicable. It doesn't really seem like running it for a couple of minutes without water would hurt much, but since on these engines, the head gasket doesn't really separate water/oil any where. (maybe the '61, with the oiling to the rockers) And the fact that if it was going into the cylinders from any source, it wouldn't run out, they ARE pretty well sealed units. And if you haven't taken any plugs or any thing out of anywhere leading to a water jacket/oil residing area. There isn't a whole lot of other options. These relatively complex castings need to be cooled properly or you will get one area expanding at an accelerated rate while the other area isn't... with nothing (I.E. water) to help distribute the heat more or less evenly to the other areas of the engine. So yes I would think you would have to consider a crack. Not to mention it is 50 some years old, and it is pouring into the engine as fast as you can pour it into the radiator.

Just a simple mistake somewhere in reassembly. You will find it fix it and all will be well in time. I have no suggestions just offering moral support. Good luck.

Don't know if this is worth considering but...could the water have entered the pan when you were taking the head off and the quick dumping you observed was the thermostat opening up?

I hope all the shiny stuff doesn't start to rust since there was so much water in the oil. I wouldn't want to leave it long before addressing that.

Dennis

I had a 235 engine leaking water into the pan after a rebuild turned out to be the temperature gauge reduction bushing, the mechanical heat tube would not seat tight to the bushing seat, so water would flow out around the heat tube onto the top of the head and run back down into pan, rocker cover was off engine.

No, Coolant dumped before any disassembly. No coolant in anything. bone dry when head pulled. Thermostat closed, works fine when tested, was not the issue. what have seeped, not 'dropped.

Heat sensor seems to be installed perfectly, no indication that water ever got to that level (none on top of bare head). Probably would have come out the Dipstick tube before that.

Thanks for thinking about possibilites.

ID's Confirmed!!! Researched 8+ sites, results positively confirmed!

MAKE AND YEAR
Chevrolet 1958-62

C.I.D. LITRE BORE CYL.
235, 3.9, 3.563. L-6

DESCRIPTION
P/U Truck, Front Center Mt

BLOCK CASTING NUMBER
3764476
C 21 60 (Mar 21 1960)

HEAD
3836848

?For the future - thoughts on type/mfg of new head gasket, I'm probably in the market.

Just thinking out loud, so to speak - - - - -isn't there a freeze plug somewhere in the area of the timing cover that would allows coolant to go directly to the oil pan without spilling outside if it was at least partially dislodged? Tonight I'm 300 miles north of the engines I've got stashed away in the shed, in Dayton Ohio, or I'd check on that idea for myself.
Jerry

The earlier 235s with the high mounted water pump had a freeze plug at the front, but it was above the timing cover so coolant couldn't get in even if it rusted out. The later 235 had the water pump mounted in the block where the freeze plug used to be.

Hotrod Lincoln - Would appreciate If you take a look when you have a chance. I didn't take the timing cover off, but who knows.

There are no soft plugs under the timing cover.
I have run many engines with out water, no more that that about a minute at a time, with no problems.

Oh good you're here Dave. I was just speculating as to how this could of happened, he said he ran it for 3 or 4 minutes at a time, no more than an hour total. Wouldn't seem this sort of activity would be accumulative, maybe 1 minute is OK, but perhaps 4 is too many ? Maybe time got away from him, and it was more like 6 or 7 minutes? It certainly seems (to me anyway) like about the only thing that could create such a condition.

4-5 minutes sounds like way to long to run an engine without water but, how many cars ant trucks have overheated bad while driving them before the driver noticed they were hot, then refilled and end up fine.
I have not been following this thread very close but it sounds like the head gasket was damaged before or during installation.
There was a question asked earlier about a leaking Clifford intake manifold, which could cause this problem, but the only response was that there was no water to the "exhaust" manifolds on this job.
This may have been a misprint. I would like a confirmation that the intake does not have water flowing through it for heat. Clifford manifolds are known to leak internally.

I think he is saying he has the earlier stock style exhaust heated intake, it has only been relatively recently they plumbed them for water. This I found out when I went to bid on one on ebay a while back. It is so frustrating to not be able to "lay hands" on things like this.

This is any earlier Clifford and did not have external heat. I plan an adding it later.

Time spent adjusting Dist. My estimate is probably on the high side. I know how much heat is generated from a running stovebolt.

less than 1.5 min each session.

2-3 sessions per day, cooling off between sessions

Head gasket, Doubt that damage caused during install, but might not have been the correct gasket. It's actually not an issue, because I have to remove the head to checkout possible problems and will be installing a new head gasket

you wouldn't really feel heat on the outside of the block, as there would be nothing to really transfer the heat. air is a good insulator, and water is a good conductor. I have a 216 block that has a crack right at the bottom of the cylinder, that had to be a heat induced, along with casting stresses. That is why I am saying crack, the cylinder would be exposed to a fairly high temperature, while the rest of the block would be relatively cool. Given what I have seen done by heat expansion/stress, that is where I would have to go. Not to mention there is really no other way for the water to get into the oil pan, they are pretty well separated.

Think a cyl. pressure check without running would confirm this?

Were you getting any steam from the exhaust? Probably not, if there was no coolant during the engine run(s). I'd suggest adapting an air hose with a pressure regulator attached to the radiator fill neck, and flowing a small volume of air into the radiator, then listening with a piece of rubber tubing used like a stethoscope to the spark plug holes, oil filler, crankcase vent, etc. for escaping air. You could also remove the valve cover and look for evidence of a water leak down the pushrod holes and into the crankcase that way. An incorrect fit of the head gasket between the cooling passages and the pushrod area would allow the kind of "quick fill" of the crankcase it seems you got.
Jerry