The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Pickled frame?

So I realized a bit ago that our frames are picked with acid from the factory. Not a drop of paint on it and still going strong after 60 years!

Question is about cleaning it off. I was considering sandblasting it and tried a few small spots with a small gun. cleaned up nice and left a light raw metal appearance. moved to wire wheel and it removed all rust leaving a dark smooth appearance.

After long delay the question is..... Am i removing the pickled surface treatment from the surface by sandblasting and is this undesirable? I wouldn't want to unnecessarily remove any residual rust protection especially if I may end up just doing a rattle can paint job.

what made you "realize" that? do you have some documentation that GM used a pickling process? it's kind of rare to find other than surface rust on the frame, but I don't think that has anything to do with 'pickling' ...... what you're doing blasting the frame is removing the usual surface rust, carry on, and paint it or not as you choose, most folks paint them, but some swear most years frames weren't painted, including me

Bill

1954 truck frame: hot rolled steel, pickled
I thought they were primed black or painted black.

1958 truck frame: hot rolled steel, pickled

That would be where I found it!

It's crazy how much info they used to put in a manual... material properties/ section modulus. Today all you get is how to use the radio and how to call the dealer!

that pickling was from the steel maker, not GM, it's a common process in steel making to descale new metal and results in rapid surface rust if not oiled ... has nothing to do with how well the frame stood up for 60 years

Bill

That does have to do with the pickling mentioned in the first post.

Does anyone have documentation that the frame was or was not painted/primed?

yes, claims of painted frames as a general practice [all plants] need documentation that I've never seen offered other than the anecdotal "mine was"

but this pickling thing prompts some thoughts:
pickling various metals as a final manufacturing step is/was a universal practice, using different baths depending on the type of metal and intended use - I believe the frame components would have been treated with hydrochloric acid to remove the oxide scale, resulting in a layer of flash rust

GM trucks were consumer goods, made as cheaply as possible, but rust surfaced frames in the show room wouldn't be a big selling feature, so something would be worked out to deal with the result of the usual pickling process, and that 'something' needing to be as cheap as possible

painting directly over surface rust doesn't work well, and cleaning the surface, then priming and painting ain't cheap, but a quick phosphoric acid dip would convert that iron oxide coat to a nice satin black phosphate coating requiring no further attention to provide an attractive "workman like" appearance for the first few months or even years - it would look as if it had been painted, even if a few years of service subjected to road spray in a wet climate would have it back to the lightly rusted surface most of these frames are now - and any reference I've seen to a frame treatment calls it "chassis black" without the word paint .... that's my take, and I really doubt anyone can make a better case for GM spending the extra dollars per vehicle to actually paint the frames

Bill

^^^^ Bill your use of logic and common sense coupled with educational links always disturbs me...

It just seems so... 20th century

well, the trucks are cheap 20th century artifacts

Bill

I can see your point on it being a common process by the metal manufacturer. For some reason I figured it was as Bill said.

In regard to hydrochloric acid vs phosphoric acid, I thought the use of any form of acid would be considered pickling and would resuld in the iron oxide coat mentioned( some stronger and some will eat the base material and some wont...). Its this inert layer that I figured would contribute to reducing rust over the years and alse give it that chassis black appearance.
My understanding is that most fo the "rust converter" products out there are actually acid based and convert the rust to iron oxide. If the iron oxide layer works so well, why would i remove it?

As an aside- my truck had a hoist put on it and you could see where the frame of the hoist which was bare steel ( even when butted up to the original frame) would rust away with little left and the frame was fine...

Hydrocloric doesn't produce a phosphate coating. And can keep eating away material if not neutralized.
Okay how can we make it official, Task Force frames are / where painted a semi gloss black. Says factory stock surviver and other untouched frameed trucks.

Tj, what's commonly called pickling in plain carbon steel manufacture uses hydrochloric acid to remove mill scale, other acids and blends of acids are used on other alloys .... iron oxide is rust, the result of flushing with water after the hydrochloric bath, the phosphoric acid [sold as 'rust converter'] converts that iron oxide to ferric [iron] phosphate, which is protective to some extent, but needs further coatings to really do the job - if your frame had any surface rust on it, there was no 'protective layer' on it, the reason it doesn't have real corrosion is it's a higher carbon steel that the mild steel of that hoist frame .... you could treat the whole thing with phosphoric acid after you clean it but it'll last at least as long again as it already has with no treatment other than keeping it off the road in winter

OTOH, the resto-pack doesn't specify exactly what treatment was used, the phrasing could mean that GM used hot rolled steel [that had the usual hydrochloric bath at the steel mill], and when they stamped/cut frame members from it they further 'pickled' it with a phosphate bath

Truckrolet, you can make it official if you come up with some written info from GM stating frames were painted semi-gloss black, the fact that you've seen a couple or a few that you think look painted says nothing about the many hundreds of thousands of TF series trucks produced at a dozen different plants over a 5 year period - I've parted out a lot of these trucks and am sure most, if not all, have never had any paint on them

Bill

I have been around lots of TF trucks. I have seen under them when brand new, yeah I was just a kid, the frames were painted black. I am now wire brushing a never touched frame I'm 3rd owner, it has black paint. For any TF owners to verify the frame color, on an untouched frame, just remove the front bumper brackets from the frame, you will find the best example of what color it was there.
What I'm not sure was painted or not is the front spring rear brackets that are riveted on the frame, the frame may have been painted before they were added. Gosh there should be factory photos showing the frames???

I have yet to see any GM truck, or any other brand for that matter, up to around 1998 with a painted frame. I've literally been under thousands of trucks and cars over the last 22 years as a professional mechanic, no paint. Lots of black phosphorus, though. The only painted parts I've come across were control arms and in some cases, springs.
BTW, my '55, which was an untouched Southern survivor when I got it, had no paint on the frame.

You have never cleaned an untouched task force then.

his 55 is a Task Force, and it's very clean

Bill

Some of the above statements about frames not being painted are blanket statements that no GM truck frames were painted. If anyone has Chevrolet truck documentation, it would be nice to see what was done with those "pickled" frames (or to the frames made out of "pickled" metal).

Is there any sense in posting documentation about any GM truck frame painting?

GMC Painting Specifications documentation is provided on Rob English's oldGMCtrucks.com

"Undergear" ("frames, axles, springs, etc, but not wheels") was/were painted black on 1949 New Design GMCs.

"Undergear" (whatever that was in these years - "all other areas not specifically described") was/were painted black on 1954 New Design GMC trucks (and described with the same words for 1958 and 1959 Blue Chip GMCs).

In 1960, frame and running gear were also specifically described as being painted black.

Must have been a monday or friday frame on the line then. Because every TF I have been around has remnants of a black painted frame. I suppose the inner fenders on his are not painted either? Has he ever removed the front bumper mount brackets? Look under them. If its just rust, it must then have spent its life around salt. Gosh even around the steering gear there should be remnants of paint. What do you mean by "clean"?
Its it untouched not preserved or restored?

you'd have to ask him about his truck, he said it was an 'untouched survivor' that had no paint on the frame, you contradicted him, I simply pointed out you were shooting from the lip

I'll still ask you: what percentage of the one and a quarter million trucks produced in the TF years, at 11 different plants [+ one in Canada] have you examined close enough to distinguish between black paint and black phosphate? how many of each year and from how many different plants? nobody will accept your personal experience as proof of anything with respect to what was standard practice for Chev truck production - Tim has pointed to some documentation concerning GMC, you are providing nothing beyond opinion based on personal experience

Bill

Just for the record, I took it down to the bare frame, including removing both the front and rear bumper brackets, as well as the trailer hitch that was installed when the truck was new. There was no paint on the frame. The truck was built in Baltimore, originally sold in North Carolina, and spend most of its early life on a farm in the Kannapolis area, then later, Atlanta, Georgia. They don't salt the roads down there.
Oh, and the inner fenders did have paint on them.

truckolet, if you're fixated on having a factory original TF truck head down to NE for the auction in Sept, pony up for the never titled 58 Cameo, "untouched" since new - well except apparently a tree fell on it should satisfy your need for museum pieces - looks like it may have had a painted frame, at least for having only 000001.3 miles on the clock, the way it looks must have been cheap paint, not phosphoric acid - and the inside of the bed might not meet your standards

Bill

From experience. Phospheric acid will not turn clean steel black. It does turn the rust to a nice black though. And 2 phosphate will not come off easy, like a paint will.
And I can agree that not each and every TF truck was created the same. Nor were the BC trucks. There is constant bragosus in the GMC literature about the efforts to spray rust inhibitor in doors and cowling plenum. We all know if these things were painting correctly in the inner areas of panels, there would be no rusty cabs and sheet metal. I still stand by the frames painted black at conception, maybe not everything added to them was painted though. I do know for a fact there are 4 1/2 ton trucks that were painted from the factory. A 57, 58, and 2 59's.
Oh and a 59 GMC too.

Oh as far as a 55, they were is such a hurry to get them out the door, that it could be likely they cut all sorts of corners to do that. And not waiting for frame paint to dry could be a good place to cut a corner. The TF 55's are kind of a bird of a different color so to say, even the numbering is not typical TF.
It is obvious by the continuation of the Advance design trucks into the 55 model year that, they were behind in the TF departments, I wonder how close it came to not having a 55 TF truck?
The cameo.
The inside bed walls have been painted black, must be part of 2 tone cameo stuff. The frame shows the yes cheap paint, they didn't prime them, just what ever the paint was, likely fast dry lacqure. They evidently played with it
and removed the white paint stick marks on the firewall. Things to notice: the interior paint is not shiney, its a dulled paint. Hmmm so even cameos had stock interior colors then. The body color deal must have been an option? Wonder why the wood looks like its been wet?

So where is the auction date for that? I see days and times no month.
That modifed roof and windshield makes it a custom truck not a factory stock surviver. I can imagine the whole upper cab is tweeked a bit from that.
In my 58 truck engineering features book, it shows what looks like a 2 tone cameo with black in the bed. Just note that the wood and rails are nice black too.

the flyer says Sep 28/29, but that far off it may be rescheduled, need to keep an eye on the auction site for further developments, and VanDerBrink has an established client list that get color catalog listings sent in advance and can scoop most anything ahead of time. a friend of mine is among that crowd, invited me to fly down with he and another friend with a private plane, unfortunately that's in my production season, but I asked him to take lots of pics for me

'dulled paint'? you don't really think you can tell the gloss level of a truck stored 55 years from a digital picture on the internet? what I see is the floor from the driver side appears black - from the pass side it looks the same dark gray as my 58 is, and the gloss level looks better from that sunny side, it was the top of the dash that was "No-Glare" dull - I also see details in this pic I've never run across, like the seat upholstery coming so far down the back so the bare springs aren't visible thru the big window, and the seat hinge irons black rather than grey [maybe to match the Cameo color combo] ... and there's your original floor mat, shipped rolled up on top the gas tank

and yes, the bed wood was a "nice [flat] black" when new, unfortunately they cheaped out there too, not doing a real paint job, and as seen on the auction truck, the black wash disappears pretty fast, including from the skid strips, they look rusty to me

"Phospheric acid will not turn clean steel black. It does turn the rust to a nice black though. And 2 phosphate will not come off easy, like a paint will." if they used a phosphoric bath it would have been to deal with [hide] the surface rust resulting from the mill pickling, not on 'clean steel', and while it wouldn't come off easily, 50 years later on a lightly used truck someone might mistake it for paint, but under steady use in a wet climate the iron phosphate layer will return to iron oxide, surface rust .... over the years of the series, no telling what changes were made on such things, particularly to cut costs

Bill

I wonder what the bids gona go on that thing? That custom work kinda detracts alot from it, just not too nice to look at as a museum piece or ? Too bad could have been a nice truck. Are they gona sell those cars all nice an dirty? Since the bed looks like it had water on it, then likely there could be more going on rust wise than a person would think. I wonder if the roof of its storage barn caved in and thats what caused the roof modification? I don't like auctions sometimes things go at crazy high prices, sometimes not. I've always got better deals private party or from a business. I hope they pull the speedo cable off the trans before pushing it anyplace.
So I guess its all clear now about painted frames?

I also hope they keep wana be mechanics away from it, and from doing things like using a screw driver to pry off the rubber plug in the floor for the mastercylinder, and other such things.

Heres some documentation. You kinda gotta use the old noodle though. The guy talks about testing chassis and body in salt spray, there is noway that unpainted is going to not rust.
Links not allowed here though.

if links are not allowed here, how did all the links above get thru Cletis doesn't like e-bay links, which disappear quickly .... is that 50's GM documentation? cars or trucks? duration of test? using the old noodle, I'd say cheap arz paint that won't even stand up to time in storage, as on that 58 Cameo, would do much worse than a phosphate coating on salty winter roads

Bill

Theres two of them.

seriously? 50's advertising hype as "documentation"? notice it says they test samples of finishes - in a machine, and A model of a truck under develpment .... do you really think that dump truck left parked on Cape Hatteras "sometimes in [salt] water up to the bumper" lasted very long? I can imagine what the brake system would look after one time like the TF advert of the Alcan Highway run, they don't show what the trucks look like a year later let alone 55 years later

and for the part about the loggers 'dependable' trucks, I had a 57 panel that spent it's life here on Vancouver Island as a logging camp ambulance, this is what happened to the frame in 50,000 miles

Bill

Since the 55 model year was a toss it out the door as fast as you can deal you can not use it as an example of what was done on later years either. I guess I should say every TF truck from 1957 to 1959 has had the frame painted black. These are the ones I have seen brand new as a youngster, and they all had painted black frames. No one would have bought a brand new chassis cab or flat bed truck in the day with the frame rusting. Everyone of them had nice black frames. I saw them.

yep, you saw every one of'em .... if 55 was a "toss it out the door as fast as you can deal" it wouldn't have reached the dealers 6 months late - 55 [actually all of 54] was a development period, they carried on selling the 54's until they got the new design right - and could build it cheap enough to make a profit ... the majority of the TF trucks I've had were 56, 57 and 58, none of them showed any remaining trace of that paint job, regardless of how they appeared in the show room

Bill

I sure wish others would chime in here of what they have found. You will not see paint if your not looking for it. Just like that truck you posted, you can see that it is so thin and no primer that 40 years plus its gona pretty much disapear. I guess you didn't understand the toss it out the door quick deal. Since it was so late I'm sure there was a huge rush once they got things up and running. And I'm sure corners were cut.
Personally I don't think that the engines were painted either, since you never see an original engine with paint on it. Unless someone goes at it with a spray can.

Why would anyone want to add a comment, you have all the answers and you don't care to listen to others.....I guess all the factory photos that are around are nothing more than staged photos for propaganda purposes....

That's kind of what I was thinking!

So then you are all saying the frames aren't painted then? I don't understand the comments. Its not a not listen type of deal. I just don't understand why someone may say that the frames were not painted, when I have seen many that were. Its a were they painted or not deal. Not a not listening to this or that deal.
I say they are painted, so what the staged or not factory photos show????? Do they show painted ? I don't think a factory photo will show a rusty frame, thats not a good selling point.

what's being said trukolet, is that your claim that all TF frames were painted semi gloss black is without foundation, I haven't seen anyone claim the trucks were sent from the factory with "rusty frames", in fact if you review the thread above, I suggested the possibility that a phosphoric bath would serve the cosmetic purpose for sales .... you continue to assert that the few trucks you've seen, that you believe were original, are the way they all were/are, most folks here accept GM production documents as evidence of what was most common at most plants, not your anecdotal evidence

Bill

Time for this thread to be locked....its serving no useful purpose for anybody.

ahh, come on Don, its like a soap opera that I can hardly wait to get home and read :!

...fellows, I learned LONG ago not to say never. As an example, everyone remember the thread about the two piece running boards. In the END they were factory done. I'd have never thought it but as I said, never say never and never bet a man at his own game.
However, "almost" everything is pure speculation until documentation is found.(like on the running boards) Until documentation is found, or not found, its pure speculation, opinions and what we think we know. For me, I can't say one way or the other.
It is a shame that there are no "factory worker" around that could chime in here. I'm sure there are several employee's still alive that could tell the tale.

Almost sorry to bring this back up - BUT.
Just removed the cab from the '48 2 ton farm truck from New Mexico. It had a nice even fine rust finish with some chassis black showing in out of the way places.
Decided to power wash all the silt and grease off.

Discovered as I passed over the outside of the frame rails, that they were getting blacker. I worked an area including some riveted parts and then inspected surfaces, edges and rivets.

My opinion as a Design Engineer with almost 30 years experience - This frame was never painted. It was treated with a chemical surface finish after riveting and before accessories were bolted on.

If I had blasted or done any other abrasive cleaning I would have not found this as It would have been taken down to bare metal. The surface rust formed because of microscopic bleed through but the surface had not broken down.

Can only answer about this one frame - no generalizations.