The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay Perplexing electrical issues on 58 Burb

I have been working hard to get my 58 Suburban ready to pass inspection so I can get it registered. With the help of a fellow bolter Joe, I've been working off the punch list.

Here are my two remaining issues:

1. Left front blinker. I installed an aftermarket blinker switch (sold at Jim Carter). I matched the truck's wiring diagram with the diagram supplied with the switch. When I turn on the left blinker, the left rear light blinks. Nothing from the front left light. When you turn on the 4-way flashers all the lights blink including the left front. The right blinkers front and back function properly. Obviously the bulb and wiring to the light are good. During the installation of the switch we were having some other issues and ended up taking it apart to validate the wiring set up. I'm thinking something got messed up during the disassembly/assembly of the switch.

2. Front parking/driving lights. When I pull the light switch to the first stop, the front and rear park lights come on. When I pull it all the way out the headlights come on and the rear park lights stay on. The front park lights go off. I thought it might be the switch so I bought a new one and installed it. The switch functions much more smoothly, but the light issue stays the same. My wiring diagram doesn't show the switch in any sort of detail. I'm wondering if there are two hookups on the switch for the front and back lights. I'm confused by the fact that the back ones work fine but the fronts go out.

Anyone have any ideas. These are the last two issues keeping me from getting the truck on the road.

for #1 I'd suspect you've something wired wrong or a bad left socket/bulb - probably the 'hazard' function is working by activating the parking light filaments rather than the turn filaments, so that doesn't necessarily mean the bulb or both wires to the light are good

for #2, the front parking lights are just that, parking lights, they are only on with the first position of the switch, the rear "parking lights" are tail lights, on in either the park position or drive position .... if you want the parking lights to act as running lights [a modern thing not found on the old vehicles], see this tech tip

Bill

Bill;

Ok. I just assumed that the front parking lights were also running lights. So they are working the way they are supposed to???

If they are functioning as designed, I won't worry about it. I may add the jumper to make them into running lights.

For the blinkers, I originally had the left front wires crossed. The parking light was bright and the blinker was dimmer. The other three blinker/park lights were matched. I cut the wires and hooked them up the other way. Now they match the passenger side and the rest of the lights. I also replaced the bulbs and put new wires in the sockets. The old wires were binding up and the spring wouldn't seat the bulb in the socket anymore. The light wouldn't work unless you pressed it into the socket. Anyway, I'll check the wiring one more time but I'm pretty sure I have it correct.

Thanks for the help.

In most aftermarket wiring harnesses they show how to wire the light switch for front park on when headlights are on; or off when headlights are on. This is a typical option.

Use a bulb type tester, remove bulb on left turn sig, turn on ign, move turn sig lever to left turn, touch one of the contacts down in the socket with the sharp end of the tester and touch good ground with the clip, test bulb blinking? If not try other contact, bulb blink there? If not, contact obviosly not getting voltage or bad ground. Follow the wires backwards from the bulb till you find hot. If test bulb blinks: bad bulb or bulb case not grounding thru socket. Remember: bulb has to have good ground to socket and socket has to have good ground to body. (I am aware it is blinking on hazard so doesn't "seem" to be a ground problem) The voltage for the turn sigs comes from the aftermarket turn sig switch you bought. The "Hot Test" above will tell all, as in: "I'm pretty sure I have it correct".

Bartamos;

The park lights are fine for now. I ignorantly assumed they were supposed to stay on. I may "fix" them at some point, but for now I can explain it to the inspector if it comes up as an issue.

I understand your technique for testing the blinkers. I don't have a bulb tester. I'll have to pick one up.

That being said, the light blinks when using 4 ways. The voltage to do that has to go from the switch all the way to the bulb. If it works in 4 way mode, by definition it should work in blink mode correct?? If it works one way it should work the other. That's what makes me think its an issue in the switch. Am I missing something?

True Larry, However the best, keeping your sanity way, to trouble shoot an electrical problem is not to start checking all the components willy nilly. Your logic is correct and you may hit the problem right away, but I always try to start at the end and work backwards to be sure. Sometimes there are two problems working intermittently and so on. This is my opinion only, but I need to see the test bulb blink or not blink on left turn front. Then follow the line backwards. The key also is to isolate, wiring, switches, bulbs and other electrical components as you go, using test wires, test bulbs (bulb tester) and a different ground spot. Bypass/temporarily replace, the existing component or wire you suspect. Don't trust anything that is in place or any ground. Like you said, it may be the switch, so touch the hot of the switch to the left front feed with a test wire/jumper. If you are sure it is all wired correctly and the jumper makes it come on, then indeed, it is the switch internals (mechanical or electrical). Not trying be disrespectful if you know all this already. Never know someone's expertise when they ask for suggestions. Again you are correct, you can concentrate on the sw and test. Better idea than mine probably. The older I get, the more methodical I get (slower thinking).

Bartamos;

No offense taken. That is exactly why I posted the question. Like I said, I "just knew" the front park lights were jacked up when they switched off as the headlights came on. Ignorance is bliss!

I shouldn't take anything for granted. I actually like the sound of your trouble shooting method. I'll give it a shot and see what happens. It may end up being the switch. That would be easy. The next problem may not have such and easy answer.

Next on the list is getting the temp and fuel gauges to work. Oh what fun!!

If the front left turn lamp works when the switch is in hazard mode, but not for left turn, the problem is in the switch. As long as it burns brighter than the park lamp (brightens when hazard lights come on) then the lamp assembly is fine. The problem is in the switch.

If the right turn signals work both front and back, and only the rear works for the left, yet the left front works in hazard, the only change is in the position of the switch inside.

The switch you installed should have a schematic showing which wire is for the front left turn signal. I would test that wire coming out of the switch at the switch. If it works on hazard and does not for left turn, the problem is in the switch.

Did you say you took the switch apart?

If you have a fuel sending unit you have not installed yet, don't install. It can be used to test fuel and temp gauge when you get to it. Of course, there are other methods. I have a book on how to test old gauges. Later, Bartamos.

if the unit follows standard color coding, left is light blue, right is dark blue

Bill

Roy;

Thanks. That is what I was thinking. Yes, the switch was taken apart and put back together. I'll take it apart again and see if anything looks amiss.

Bartamos;

As a mater of fact I do have a replacement fuel sender unit that my wife got me for my birthday. I haven't installed it yet. I'll send you a PM when I get ready to tackle the gauges. I'm very interested in your gauge experience/knowledge.

When you are ready for gauges, let me know. Hope you are testing switch operation, as outlined by several responders, before dis-assembly.

Ok, I went back out to the garage to tackle the switch. I didn't want to be monkeying around inside the switch with the power hooked up. I disconnected the battery before I started.

I took the switch apart and looked at the internals. Everything looked ship shape. I put it back together and tightened everything up. Still no improvement. The problem is that all the wires and connections are in the bottom of the switch under the internals. There is no way to test the individual connections without taking the whole thing apart. I'm trying to figure out how to test the internal connections inside the switch. This is quickly getting way above my skill level.

In order to test it further I'll have to cut it back out of the truck and test it on the kitchen table with my multi-meter. For all that it might be easier to just buy a new switch.

until you're sure what's wrong, don't waste money on assumptions, nobody said trouble shooting would be easy, and you're not on a government job make your tests from the first place outside the switch that there's a connection - using the wire colors you should be able to operate the unit [with power] and watch if the power appears at the right wires

Bill

Bill;

The switch wires into the 6 or 7 prong connector that the original switch used. I cut the connector off the old switch wires and wired it onto the end of the new switch wires. I just had to match the the colors from the truck wiring diagram with the switch wiring diagram. The power going into the switch doesn't go through the connecter. It is a separate wire that goes into the flasher and then out to the switch.

So how about I disconnect the 6-way connector and also take the flasher out of the loop. I'll hook the power wire together with the power line going into the switch. According the my diagram it will be the red wire coming from the power hooked to the black wire going into the switch. That way I can move the switch lever back and forth and check for power at each of the 4 outbound wires going to the 4 lights. After that, I'll wire the flasher back in to see if that makes any difference.

If my current theory holds true, I should NOT get power to the left front blinker light (yellow wire) with the switch in the left signal position, but still get power to the left rear (orange wire). There should be power to both the right side lights in the right blink position. Finally, I should get power at all four conrners in the 4-way position. If those results don't play out, it should lead me in a good direction to identify the problem.

If all that does hold true, then what?? At that point I guess the only option left is to really take it out and take it apart. I'll have to go connection by connection inside the switch. The only way to do that will be to completely dissassemble the switch and check wire by wire on the bench.

Anyway I'm rambling but it is helping my think this through. I'll go back out to the garage tomorrow after work. I'll post again once I have test results.

Thanks to everyone for your patience and help.

unplugging that plug you can just use an ohm meter to check the continuities with the signal lever in different positions - also you have an aftermarket unit that doesn't follow the universal aftermarket colors or the industry standard [GM] codes either - make sure you matched up your colors correctly

Bill

I don't know what the heck you said in your 10:03 pm post BUT: Maybe you said that you hooked up the new switch to the old wire harness/connector and you matched color from one diagram to another. What you need to do is make sure you match functions of switch wires to the same function of the existing harness wires. I would not do color matching if that is what you have done?. So the wiring to the lights are original wires? which may or may not be correct colors depending on how many times others have rewired it? And you wired in the new switch and it's wires, that may or may not match 1958 GM color codes, to this old harness using color matching? Do the function thing and make sure you know where each old wire goes using continuity test (buzz out) or hot test, as mentioned by Red58. Continuity test is done without voltage being applied. A normal multimeter, set to DC ohms, passes a current from the multimeter battery thru the wire or component being tested to see if it is uninterrupted and goes where you expect it to go. You have to touch each end of the wire or component with each lead of the multitester. You will need to extend the leads of the tester to test "long" runs. You will read needle movement (continuity) or no needle movement (open or not connected). you can test circuitry paths or grounding thru metal. They call it buzz out because in industry they use a buzzer to tell the technician that there is continuity, don't have to stare at a dial. If you keep taking the switch apart you WILL screw it up. As Red58 says, testing just the switch is done by disconnecting the connector and running a continuity test for function at the contacts in the connector half on the switch harness. And test the existing harness by "buzzing out" the contacts in the other half of the connector. In the American Autowire Wiring Diagram it shows 8 wires going to a column. One is to the horn. Then there are three hot wires, 12V from brake switch, 12V feed for turn sigs (this comes from turn flasher) and 12V feed for hazard (this comes from hazard flasher). then there are right and left Rear turn/stop and right and left front park/turn. See if your switch connects the proper Voltage input to the proper output according to your switch diagram. Example: Lever moved to left turn; 12v switch feed for turn sig should show continuity to front and rear left lamp output of switch. If, for example, this was pin 1, 2 and 3 of the connector, you should get continuity to 1-2, 1-3 and 2-3. You will also see continuity between stop feed and right rear lamp output. No other pins should show continuity to any other pins. I am going by my test info I have developed for testing original switches and assume the aftermarket works the same. Write it all down as you go and re-pin as necessary. Contacts/pins are usually front release, rear removeable.
If switch is bad and you get a refund, why don't you just get an original turn sig assembly from CL or Ebay? and rig up a hazard switch or get some flares

Sorry everybody, maybe I should have sent a PM. It's really only 1:23 am here.

Bartamos/all;

I should have been more clear. I did not simply connect the yellow wire from the switch to the yellow wire in the wiring harness.. I laid the two diagrams side by side and matched the functions/destinations. Left blinker wire from the switch to left blinker wire in the truck wiring harness etc.

I am pretty confident that the wiring harness is original. It matches the truck's wiring diagram by function and color of wire. The original signal switch was still in the truck and pretty ate up. I traced the signal harness from where it exited the bottom of the steering column to the multi prong connector. What I did was separate the connecter and then cut the male end off the end of the steering column harness. I left enough wire length so that I could solder the "new switch" harness into the "old" harness connector. I matched the wires by function as described above. I then simply pluged the connector back together. Walla: new switch tied into old harness.

I like your test plan. I was thinking I may be able to start by checking the continuity without having to power the switch. I can do that without having to take it apart or remove it from the truck. I like the sound of that. I'm going to copy/print your instructions so I can follow them when I get home.

All that being said, this was supposed to be an easy/cheap/temprorary fix. My goal (depending on the size of my tax refund) is to buy a complete replacement wiring harness this spring. I want to reinstall an original style switch on the column. I may be able to just clean up the one I have and put new guts in it. The switch in there now was only intended to get the truck to pass inspection so I can drive it while I continue to work on it.

Thanks everyone for the help and patience as I brute forece and ingorance my way through this!!

You did good and you are doing good. You are as capable as any of us. You will laugh when you find what is wrong. Your overall plan is spot on.
Now that it "seems" like it is the switch, I guess you will start with the three left turn wires/pins to see if they have continuity. In your case you know that one of those sets, 12V turn sig feed and rear left lamp wire, have continuity because you said the rear left blinks.

You are making the testing of the turn signal switch much to complicated.

While in the truck, test the function of the wire at the connection under the dash while everything is still plugged in and powered up. No disassembly required. Leave everything hooked up as it would be if working.

You will either have power at the front left turn connection when the left turn signal is on, or you won't. If you do your test light will flash.

If it does not, turn on the hazards, if the test light flashes then, the problem is in the switch.

Helping with words is a lot harder than being there. You can't tell someone just to test something if they don't know how; and you don't know if they know how and also you have find out what they have done so far.

He's getting there, he does know what he is doing. I am making him feel like it is complicated, my fault.

Roy:

I appreciate your position. I tend to think the same way. "This should be pretty simple."

I also agree with Bartamos in the fact that it is probably more important to figure out/understand why something works than just knowing whether or not it works.

I read a tech tip written by Cletis (I think Bill recommended it) that showed how to map out the circuits in the blinker switch by checking continuity on pairs of wires with the switch in different position. I think I'm going to do that next. If I can wrap my mind around something relatively simple like a blinker switch I'll be more likely to figure out more complicated issues down the road. Like I said earlier, I have the gauge issue to tackle next.

Anwyay I appreciate EVERYONE'S ideas and encourage you all to keep them coming.

A good test light and a schematic can do wonders.

On this turn signal switch, how do you turn the hazard lights on?

Some after market models had a small knob you pulled out, while others you pulled out on the turn signal lever itself.

Larry,

You don't mention what type of turn signal switch you have, factory or after market add -on. Bill will probably correct me, but I believe that 1958 was the last year for OPTIONAL turn signals. What made me wonder about this is your mention of "4-way flashers," which were NOT stock on your truck. The "SignalStat 500" was the most common in its day and there a couple of reproductions around now. There is wiring diagram for this unit in our "tech Tips" I believe, or if not try a Jeep electrical site.

best wishes,

Les

Problem identified!!!

I decided to remove the switch from the truck and "bench test" it with my multimeter. It was a lot easier to remove than I thought it was going to be. I just loosened the clamp holding it to the column, unhooked the multi-prong connector and unhooked the two wires going to the flasher. Took all of about 3 minutes to get it out of the truck.

I decided to do it that way because its about 20 degrees outside and I don't have a heated garage. I like working at the kitchen table.

After I mapped out the circuits as described in the tech tip, I discovered that there was a problem inside the switch with the left front signal. No continuity where there should have been. Its too hard to describe how exactly the switch is put together. Bottom line is juice wasn't going from the contact on the back of the switch to the soldered in wire on the front of the switch. I tried to melt some more solder in there to improve the connection but couldn't get anything to stick. All the other contacts checked out fine. Just not the left front blinker.

The four ways function by bridging all the wire connections on the underside of the switch. The current doesn't travel through the normal contacts. That why the 4 ways worked but not the front left blinker.

There is a descent amount of "switch grease" inside the switch. I think that is what was keeping the solder from sticking. I may try to clean some of it off to see if I can fix up the connection. Is there any special kind of solder to use on switches like this?

My fun meter is just about pegged on this switch. I may just run up to Jim Carters tomorrow afternoon and buy a new one.

On an unrelated but happy note, started the Burb up while I was taking the switch out. Fired right up on the first try and ran like a champ even though its 20 degrees outside. Thanks to Joe for the work on the carb and the timing. Hooah!!

close Les, the same optional signal unit was used 55.2 thru 59, they weren't standard until the 60's, not sure which year

Bill

Les/Roy;

It is an aftermarket switch. I can't remember if I picked it up at Jim Carters, LMC or Classic Chevy as I have been to all three stores. I can't find a name anywhere on the switch but it does match the picture and wiring diagram in the tech tip. It has a small knob underneath the signal lever that you pull out to activate the switch.

My Suburban did come with signal lights. The original switch was all ate up and had some melted/smoked wires. I decided for the quick easy replacement switch as a temporary measure until I get a whole new wiring harness and install a replacement original switch.

Hopefully I will close the book on this issue tomorrow afternoon. Wish me luck.

VICTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Burb passed inspection!! :-) I tried one last time to fix the switch that I had. I finally gave up and went to Jim Carters for a replacement. I got it home, checked continuity with the multi-meter, soldered in the multi-prong connector and installed it in the truck. Got a first time go when I put it through its paces. I went into town to fill the tank and air up the tires. I pulled it into the inspection station and it passed with flying colors. This is so exciting. Since tomorrow is the last Saturday of the month, vehicle reg. is open. If all goes well, I have new plates on it tomorrow. HOOAH!!!!

Ain't it nice when things come together. You did an awesome job testing the switch and finding the problem. Next one will be even easier for you. Enjoy the ride.