The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Big Problem - Missing VIN?

So I just ran out to get the vin off the truck to start working on title stuff. I opened the driver door and what do i see?

A bare spot in the paint where the title plate should be =\ Does that leave me up a creek as they say?

1947 3quarter ton

maybe - depends on how the truck was titled, back then the engine number was most common, so if it still has the original engine, check that number - if it has neither the door tag or engine number you'll be spending some time talking to you DMV folks

Bill

Do you currently have a title? If so it's likely the engine number since most states used the engine number as the "VIN" through '55. At any rate you need to contact your state licensing authority about resolving your issue. They are the folks you'll have to satisfy anyway so get your info from the horse's mouth.

Ahhh yes STATE licencing authority I called the local DMV and they gave me the "don't buy without a title" speech. I'm young.. i wont make this mistake again, i didn't need him to repeat it a dozen times.

So to answer your questions
No vin
Not the original engine

Guess i'll be making some calls

Does your title have a ID number on it? Does it look like an engine number? There is a code somewhere on this site I think for the engine numbers. If so, why not just buy a VIN plate from one of the parts suppliers and stamp the number that's on the title?

Following up on Super55's practical questions:

What is legal is one thing; what is honest is another thing.
Being legal is important; being honest is more important.

If you have a title or registration from the previous owner; and,
that title registration uses an engine number that does not match your engine number, you are SOL. Ask your DMV how this would be handled - engines get changed during 50 years.

If you have a title registration from a previous owner; and,
that title registration uses a cab/body/vehicle ID that does not match the VID tag, you and the seller are in trouble. The seller has perpetrated a fraud, and you are "holding the bag". Shame on the seller for being dishonest and shame on the buyer for being stupid.

If you have a title or registration from a previous owner; and,
that title registration uses a cab/body/vehicle ID and there is no VID tag on your truck, you are in a legal bind (you are SOL, but you might consider making a replacement tag and suffer the possible consequences).

Oddly, the New York DMV takes a very logical position on this situation. Since there are no national or state records for IDs for old vehicles, NY accepts a written bill of sale on which the seller IDs the vehicle (stating the VID and or the engine ID) and states the sales price. The NY buyer can then register the vehicle, after paying taxes on the purchase price. This is beneficial to buyers and sellers (and to the state in collecting taxes). If any of the information can later be proven to be fraudulent (the IDs and/or the sales price), that sales contract can be used as evidence of fraud committed by the seller and or buyer - lawyers like this.

What if the tag is there based on the original engine number, but the engine has been replaced? The tag is there, the number on the registration is the same as the tag, but not the new engine number?

I guess my answer was a little naive, I was taking for granted that everyone is honest. I live in BC and one of my neighbors bought a truck from a mine that was never on the road. It didn't have a VIN tag on it. BC must be like New York, he took the truck in with the bill of sale and the government issued him a VIN number.

Paul, the door tag and engine numbers are 2 different things, if you have the registration/title based on the door tag number you're good to go, regardless if it even has an engine .... and it's not simple to get a BC title on a bill of sale if the vehicle has no ID tags, your neighbors situation was unique and usually results in a title to something like "2012 Ubilt number so-n-so", not to anything related to an antique GM truck

Bill

I believe i'm in a perfect storm of bad luck.

The engine is a 55 235. The body's SN plate is missing and the 47's didn't get any other stamp for identification.

There is no title of any sort atm. So i guess i'm just up a creek.

I'm going to call the state dmv tomorrow and see what they can advise but it looks bad for me.

Good luck.

Was dismayed to find out that Georgia won't issue a title on any car built before 1963.

Most states will no longer produce a title for old vehicles. They have no records prior to the date that they have information in their computerized database (1972 in NY and VA, for examples). They will provide a registration, if you have whatever they consider to be the appropriate documented ownership (title or registration that satisfactorily IDs the vehicle). As we regularly see, every state has their own rules (and the rules are sometimes inconsistently applied in some states).

The practice of using an engine ID is/was, of course, ridiculous - engines get replaced and an engine ID was not a unique identifier and an engine ID does not confirm that the engine was in the vehicle in which it was first installed.

This situation is not convenient or logical. People are often dishonest and DMVs are between a rock and a hard place: they want to register vehicles (and collect revenue) but they do not want to assist thieves.

Seems like they could make it possible if you had a bill of sale from the seller, with seller's and buyer's information on a bill of sale and on an application for a re-title. You would think that would deter thieves. Just doesn't seem fair somehow.

I agree, especially if you have an original title or original registration.

In Ill. they have a Bond Title that you can get it costs about 250 to 300 dollars by the time you get it all done but it's a good title and than the truck is legal.

Pete

I feel for you guys down south . In most of Canada all you need is a bill of sale with appropriate personal ID ,insurance , and a clean safety inspection for the insurance company and registration and a plate are only a hundred dollars away .

Do not feel sorry for me in NY. I have it all as good as you do, except it costs about 50% less.

I looked into this issue in California as I considered purchasing a stovebolt without a VIN. I did get the "Don't buy the car" speech from DMV.

I could be wrong but I understand that in California, DMV will send you to the Highway Patrol for a VIN check and if the car does not have a VIN, the Highway Patrol will issue you a "blue plate" with a new VIN. You need to bring your bill of sale and all other information. I did not purchase the truck so I am not certain if this is accurate. The DMV Help Line staff were not aware of this "blue plate." There may be some hope.

GMC and others stamp the frame with a number that might be the correct one, if the engine # was not used, or could be used now, look on the outside of the frame near the front of the vehicle, R side, near front spring hanger on GMC.

http://www.classicparts.com/1947-49-Door-Post-ID-Plate-Chevrolet/productinfo/33-011/



I put one of these with the title # on it ,

Gee I don't know officer the numbers match, what's the problem ?

In Missouri, the problem can be as serious as criminal charges for felony fraud.

"Gee, what's the problem" ... Gee, I would not like to be explaining the "problem" to a cell-mate named Big Boy (who may find men quite attractive).

The Missouri Highway Patrol can be pretty smart when they do those VIN checks, I have had them do several. MO State Police They take lots of pictures, take the report back to the offices, research the numbers pretty good ... and then, to add icing to the cake -- they cross-reference all kinds of tax records and stuff from in State and out (and that can open up a nice can of worms). Really fun part is those records stay on file forever, and a person may not even get "questioned" for 5-6 years later ... or until he sells the truck and the new buyer has problems... or the insurance company has problems with owners' claim, or.

Re-stamping VIN numbers from "another title" is what illegal chop-shops do.

Well, I put the chances pretty good a guy won't get caught fraudulently stamping his own fraudulent numbers, but then again Big Boy is impatiently waiting for a new "wife".

(PS---I had an old AD truck stolen many years ago, I hope the thief puts $65,000 in it an restores it to Pebble Beach concourse condition--- cause if I ever find it will be mine again :mad: )

Not sure if there is a difrence from state but i had same problem with my 49 1/2 ton in tennessee. took bill of sale and pictures of my truck to DNV, filled out some paperwork and 4 days later sheriff's department was knocking on my door. He compaired pictures to truck, opened driver side door and stuck vin sticker on door.

That dosen't looks good chuckNpah. Best of luck.