The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Panel welds

I have welded a patch panel on my cab and after I sprayed on the epoxy primer I noticed a number of small pin holes along the welds. As this is my first welding project I am asking if this is going to be a big problem later on. It looks like body filler will fill it all in and also smooth out my welds. I just don't want to see these holes come through the paint a few years later. Has any one had experience with this.

Brimmer

https://picasaweb.google.com/106094054066011607454/June42012#

Being a novice at welding, I encountered the same thing. Before I sprayed epoxy, I would use a flash light on the backside to find those little holes and I would add another tack until they were all gone. Tedious to say the least.

I'm not sure what everyone else will say, but I wouldn't count on filling tiny holes with filler, it will just cover them leaving a chamber where rust can start. Maybe you can spray more epoxy until the holes are filled? That would be better than filler.

I may be wrong on this so stay tuned for other advice.

Good luck!

Get a small artists brush or tooth pick and fill them with epoxy. May take a few coats but it will do the job better than filler with less chance of future failure.

When welding in patches, most people use a MIG for what I call "dot" welding, skipping around to control heat, and then adding dots in between. What I would suggest, instead of adding dots in between the previous ones, is to overlap one dot to each of the previous by about 1/2 dot width. This will tend to fill in any voids that may show up in the centers. Some adjustment of the wire feed may also help.

All pin holes should be welded up. Any filler that you put in will eventually fail and rust will form. I agree with jomichael and use a light behind the panel too see any pin holes and weld them up. And as MPandC said the "dot" welding method with over lap is good. I might add that if you grind each dot after welding it , it will be easier to see where you are and weld the overlap at that point. Another advantage of this technique is that there will be less chance of warping the metal if trying to grind the entire welded area at once.

All good advice, and what I suspected. The problem I have is when I try to fill in the pin hole, I seem to burn out a new hole next to it. I have the power on the welder down to 1 and the wire feed is low as well.

Are you using a copper heat sink behind the spot as you weld? That helps reduce the blow outs if you can get it there.

I found I still had a few on some of mine and that's when I decided since I was using epoxy primer to seal everywhere else I'd use it there. While I feel it worked it is far and away faster, simpler and easier to weld it up when your there the first time.

Post a link to some pictures of the affected area(s) and you may get better (more definitive) feedback on how to correct any weld issues...

Flatten a piece of 3/4" copper tubing about 6" long and clamp it behind the area you're trying to weld. It will prevent burn-through by conducting excess heat away from the weld area.
Jerry

This may sound like a hassle but try cutting the ball off the end of the wire every time you do a tack or bead (there are mig machines built now that eliminate this condition), check your gas flow and you could have your welder set to cold.

This is really helpful. I wondered about the power setting, but since I am having trouble burning through, more heat seemed to be going in the wrong direction. I definately will try the copper heat sink, and I have been clipping the ends. It sounds like I am on the right track and just need more time welding to improve. I will send better pictures this weekend as I am out of town this week.

Thanks for all the help.
Brimmer

This is really helpful. I wondered about the power setting, but since I am having trouble burning through, more heat seemed to be going in the wrong direction. I definately will try the copper heat sink, and I have been clipping the ends. It sounds like I am on the right track and just need more time welding to improve. I will send better pictures this weekend as I am out of town this week.

Thanks for all the help.
Brimmer

This sounds like the small pin holes that sometimes appear in the center of the weld dots......




....where this sounds like you aren't getting good overlap from one dot to the next, leaving a gap between. These are two different symptoms, which problem is it you are experiencing?

BTW, I normally base my welder heat settings on the weld penetrating fully, and not whether something is burning holes. If your wire feed is too slow for the higher heat setting, you will burn holes all day. If you are not getting full penetration on the welds your heat is not high enough. Once I get the heat set for a good weld penetration, then the wire feed is adjusted to correct any burn thorughs or blow-outs. I.E.: if the heat is correct for full penetration welds but tends to burn holes, then increase the wire feed. If there isn't enough filler (wire feed) going into a weld, it certainly is going to burn the surrounding metal. Hope this helps....

Venture to the dark side gentlemen. I've been two timing ya'll. I am a Stovebolter at heart but also have a 1953 F100 and toy around on the Ford Truck forums as well as here. I guess I just like old trucks period! Here's a really good article on welding.... http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1162712-new-tutorial-welding-101-theory-and-practice.html Sounds like you may want to check your wire diameter. A larger diameter wire is going to throw more juice into the weld area. You didn't mention if you're using a flux core or shielded gas either. Hope this helps...if you're brave enough to visit the site. Lol.

I have been welding for longer than I care to admit, most of it oxy and stick. Got a MIG (Wire Feed Welder) about 10 years ago. I learned quite a bit from the above mentioned article. I don't care how good you are, (you're probably better than I am,) you can always use a really good refresher! Dark side or not, this guy knows his stuff!

I bought my first MIG in 1988 and am fairly proficient after having built 5 trucks. I still found alot of useful information in that article. Besides, his truck is Chevy powered....so he can't be all that bad.

If your holes are very tiny use JB weld on both sides. Be sure to work it in well. This is far mor superior to filler and you don't need to keep heating up the area. plus the JB weld can be used to smooth out the back side of the patch and make it unnoticeable. I did this in a couple spots on my GTO over 10 years ago and it still is just fine with no bubbles of any sort.

Great Article 5wests...

All of you have been very helpful. That article from 5wests was the best. I am going to get gas for my MIG. I will let you know how it works.

Brimmer

Hi, I'm the guy who is writing the MIG welding lessons on the Ford truck forum. I'd suggest checking back regularly, I'm adding another lesson every couple days. Y'all are welcome to come by and read it, make whatever helpful use you can of the information. Just please credit me with the authorship and note that I retain all rights to it. Feel free to ask me any questions you have about welding and body work and I'll answer to the best of my ability. No, I'm not a professional, I just have been at this hobby for a long time and seem to have a knack for being able to explain things in ways that make sense to most.

Chuck, Good to see you drop by here. The "lessons" you're providing are a superb asset to the our old truck addictions. Our trucks thank you immensely.

The MIG welding setup is an interesting compromise. It is possible to slow down the feed such that when the metal melts there is not enough filler to prevent a hole forming. Sometimes with a little more wire speed it builds up faster than you want.

For butt welds I use the small spot welds at intervals along the length. I then put welds midway between them. I continue the process until the spacing gets close. I then place each subsequent weld so that it run into the weld on the left. Eventually there is only enough space left at each spot to join the two sides. If everything goes perfectly this technique yields a seam with no holes. However I don't often score 100% on this!

If you are migging it...what wire size are you using? Best bet is to drop down to the smallest diameter wire you can run (.023?), then make test passes on the same gauge scrap until you get your amps & wire speed set. Trying to weld thin sheet metal with heavier wire will definitely blow holes in it. And as the others have noted, some kind of heat sink around the area will also help, copper being the best conductor.

I have dialed my Dual Voltage Millermatic down to where I was able to tack weld 26 gauge stucco lath onto a steel beam and there is a YouTube video somewhere of a guy welding two pieces of an aluminum Coke can together using a mig, so body metal can be done. It just takes a little practice and the right set-up.

BTW...Airgas has an online "suggested" chart for amps, wire size & gauge. See below...

Mig Chart http://www.airgas.com/content/details.aspx?id=7000000000143

Best of luck. I have somewhere around 45 feet of body panel welding to take on myself here shortly.

When i looked i could only find the all-state in a 2 lb roll but the spool arc comes in a 11 lb is it the same stuff just different names? if not do you know where to get a 11 lb roll of the all state stuff online?

Yes, the All state and spoolarc easy grind wire is the same, just different distribution chain AFAIK. Just be sure it is made by ESAB, and says easy grind on the spool. In my lessons on the Ford Forum, I have a link to an online seller of both size spools. Do get a spool of the 0.023 diameter at least, the difference in use over common wire is dramatic.
You really can't slow the wire feed down so there is not enough filler and blow holes. If the wire feed is that slow, the arc will break until enough wire comes out to short out and start the arc again. When that happens, the breaking and remaking arc makes the weld sound like popping popcorn rather than a steady bacon frying sound.
When I weld sheet metal I back the welds with a copper "spatula" I made from a 12- 14" length of 3/4" copper water pipe. (see your local plumber or metal recycle yard if you don't want to buy a long length, But I've made several different length and shaped ones, so you can use any leftovers.) I split one end of the pipe down the side for ~ 5", pried it open with screwdriver and pliers until I could use a hammer on a anvil or dolly to flatten it into a spatula shape. The rest of the length can be used as a handle, or a wood dowel can be inserted as a heat barrier handle. Make several with the spatula part different sizes and shapes and angles to fit solid against the back of the panel directly behind the weld point. A piece of 1/8" or thicker aluminum can also used as a heat sink backer if you don't have copper available.
My next lesson will be making butt welds with 16 ga sheet (and maybe a couple other common welds) and I expect the one after that will be specific technique differences in welding lighter gauge metal.

Anybody

Here the link for both size spools in 0.023 and 0.030 diameters:
https://weldingsupply.securesites.n...:1:UNDEF:OR:130TF43::::std*QUICK*SEARCH

Thanks for the info and link Chuck

In regards to the offer from the guy writing the welding lessons on the Ford truck forum . Check them out it is a generous offer and very much worth your time .