The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Won't go to neutral

Need some help guys. I was ready to fire up the '53 3/4ton today for the first time. New 235 block, rebuilt engine, new clutch, etc. When we went to push her out of the garage to start it, the only way I can move it is with the clutch in. When the shifter is in neutral, it is still in gear. The tranny, clutch etc were all put in within the past 6 months. The flywheel was resurfaced, so I'm thinking it isn't likely that the clutch disk is frozen to the flywheel. So what else would cause it to stay in gear when it is in neutral? This is a Saginaw 4-speed on the floor. The gear shift moves freely side to side in the neutral position, but it is still in a gear. Help please.

Rick,

My guess is that one of the shifter arms got knocked out of the 'gate', and you really aren't getting a true side to side swing through that gate.

Could you crawl under the truck and manually shift all the arms back to a neutral, then try it again. If the disc was stuck to the flywheel, depressing the clutch wouldn't release anything and you would still not be able to move the rig.

It has to be the transmission, and the chances of a whacked out of position shift arm are pretty darn good...I hope!

Stuart

My tranny is a top shifter (4 speed SM420) and I'm not seeing anything under the truck to manually move. I removed the floor shifter and can see down inside the top of the tranny. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be seeing though.

Rick,

I thought a SM-420 was a MUNCIE, not a Saginaw.

Something is rotten in Silverton. If this transmission worked before you did the rebuild on your truck, it should work now. Can you shift through the four forward gears and reverse? Can you actually feel those positions and their detents.

Could someone have removed the tower and reinstalled it with a shifter fork off the slider? Did someone use the shifter as a lift point when removing or reinstalling the transmission, and maybe pulled it out of the tower. Something has happened. Short of an internal gear freezing up, this is a unusual problem.

Do some more detective work, shift the lever around and let us know what you find.

Stuart

you should be able to look into the top where shifter goes and see shift rails they should be lined up with slot so shifter can move into both when moved side to side..If trans rails and lower ball on shifter are warn to the point that shifter can slide into next rail before it is in a neutral on other rail you will have to repair worn parts..You can neutral trans with shifter removed with long screw driver then install shifter...doc

Looking down from the top with the shifter removed, I can see that what I believe to be 1st/2nd gear rail and the 3rd/4th gear rail are lined up so both of these are in the neutral position. I can't see the reverse shifter shaft and don't know if something on this one should be lined up with the others or not. I can tell you that the tranny shifts very clearly into 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and reverse. If the "tower" you mentioned Stuart is the top cover of the tranny, I removed it when I replaced the gasket I believe, although this truck has been apart for 6 years and I can't recall if I replaced that gasket or not. The tranny was shifted while out of the vehicle, but with the tower intact and it is possible I shifted gears on it with the top cover off, though I don't believe that is the case. With both the 1st/2nd and the 3rd/4th gears lined up for neutral so the gear shift lever rocks sideways (like it should be in neutral), the truck is in gear and cannot be moved forward or backward without depressing the clutch. I'm assuming the clutch disk can't be stuck to the flywheel or else I wouldn't be able to move it back and forth at all even with the clutch pedal depressed. Doc, what you pointed out about being able to slide to the next gear rail moving side to side is exactly what I can do, so it would appear everything inside the tran is working as it should be. When I re-installed the tran, it stopped about 1/2" shy of mating to the bell housing. It was necessary to push the clutch in to allow it to slide forward. I've seen on other posts that this is not unusual, so I'm assuming that isn't the issue. I rebuilt the driveline and reinstalled it with a new carrier bearing. Nothing changed on the angle of the driveline that I can see. What am I doing wrong?

First thing I would do is pull the spark plugs and push the truck or crank the engine over to determine if you are in a forward gear or in reverse to give yourself a starting point on your investigation. Obviously the problem is internal to the transmission. I suspect that it is in reverse and you missed the reverse shift gate when you replaced the tower.

I'm thinking you could be right, Baldy. If it proves to be in reverse, what would I be looking for to indicate I missed the reverse shift gate? I'm guessing I need to pull the cover off and then look for whatever it is. I know what the 1st/2nd and 3rd/4th slot for neutral looks like. Would the reverse have a similar neutral slot and if so, that would be to the left as I look down with the cover off. Correct?

I just checked it out like you said, Baldy. It is locked in a forward gear and not in reverse.

When you look down the hole after removeing the gearshift lever the three rails should be lined up. The reverse has a noggin in the center of the slot that has spring pressure behind it. Put ia big screwdriver down the hole & try to line them up. When you had the cover off you probably didn,t get the reverse fork in the groove in the sliding gear. It is a little tricky. Pull the cover & put the reverse shift rail half way in reverse. Move the reverse gear so you can see the groove in the area between the other gears. Put a little pressure on the drive shaft so the gear will not slide away. Then put the cover on. Put in a few bolts & try shifting to make shure it,s right before buttoning it up.

Desregared info about the half way into reverse. That pertains to the 68 up 4 speeds. This one the top should go on in neutral.
I may have to reserve my rocking chair in the nursing home.

Thanks to all for the replies. I got it fixed this evening. Wrenchbender, you were right on with what the problem was. Pulled the cover and I hadn't lined things up correctly. Couldn't see the problem with the cover on, but once removed, it was obvious what the problem was. All is well with the tran now. Thanks again to all.

Wrenchbender Ret.
I also have a 4 speed behind a 235 with new pressure plate and 11 inch clutch. The flywheel was set up for the 11 inch clutch with 6 bolt mount pressure plate. Seems that the 11 inch clutch arrangement was supposed to be for a 55-56 3/4 ton or bigger set up, but bolted in fine except for the clutch release. The clutch kit came with a shorter (app 1 1/4 inch) throwout bearing instead of the 1 7/8 that would have been on the original set up. I have tried both length throw out bearings to see if that was the problem. The shorter throwout bearing works best and releases clutch ok before tranny installation. I checked the tranny for internal alignment with all as described above and according to service manual diagrams. Still having trouble getting clutch to fully release with transmission in place. Clutch releases fine before the tranny was installed. New pilot bushing does not seem to be binding either. Tranny slides in just fine until last 1/4-3/8 inch then seems to be binding or tight. Almost seems as if the forward driven gear retainer cover is contacting the clutch. Will measure forward cover when I take apart again tomorrow to see if it may be contacting clutch plate. Actually getting pretty good at removal and replacement of tranny since I have taken apart several times in last day or so. A neighbor loaned me his old mechanical style transmission jack so job has been lots easier with all of its adjustments. Tranny shifts fine and clutch releases fine until tranny is in place. Any ideas on what may be causing the problems and/or solution would be appreciated.
Thanks
Willie

This is a tough one. Is the pilot brg. back far enough? Is the clutch disc in faceing the right direction? The short TO brg. is used on the beehive type pressure plate. The fingers come almost to the outer part of the cover. The long brg. was used on the old style plates where the fingers where resesed back & parrallel with the flywheel. New replacements use the new beehive style. Do you get a noise when in the full release position? If you have to pull the trans in with the bolts you dont want to run it like that. You can knock the main brg. out in the engine.

Finally got around to working on this clutch release issue. The clearance from the rear of the clutch disc seemed to be the problem, so ordered a new one for my year of vehicle. The hub on the original clutch disc protruded about 3/4 inch behind the rear damper spring plate which was always correctly facing the rear of the truck. The new clutch hub was flush with the rear of the damper spring back plate and the problem was resolved immediately when I installed the new disc. I had ordered the original clutch, pressure plate kit to fit the 6 bolt flywheel on my 235 engine which showed it for a 55-56 truck. So much for all of the parts being interchangeable. Thanks for the input and suggestions. On to the next challenge!