The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay Standard Brand VR-1 or VR-8 or VR-18 regulators?

Anyone know the difference between Standard Brands VR-1 or VR-8 or VR-18 voltage regulators? They are all for our era 6v systems.
Big price variation between the three.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

don't see too much price difference at Rock Auto, but Standard Motor Products do have a range of "quality" price points, 'regular', 'standard', and 'premium' ... note that VR1 can be had pretty cheap there as a wholesale closeout, so it being discontinued might be fooling you

Bill

$24 to $44 to $54 seems to me a bit different Bill. Just wondering what the difference is since they are all Standard Brands. I haven't seen Nehoff ignition for years, that's all I used to sell or use myself when I was in the parts business a looooong time ago.
DG

hah! the $24 was a closeout price Denny, and just now it's no longer listed, somebody beat ya to it the 3 prices are just a quality range - it's also possible the cheapest is a reman rather than all new

Bill

VR-1=6 volt 35 amp for DelcoRemy gens
VR-8=6 volt 45 amp DR gens
VR-18=6 volt 50 amp + or - grnd DR gens

frm std igntion illus. guide

cheaper versions are labeled "Tru-tech"

Woe Fleetfoot, where'd you find that thar "standard Ignition Illustrated Guide"????? I'd sure like to have a copy of that.
Thanks for the list, looks like I got stiffed on that one since my generator is a 45 amp output.
Oh well, looks like I'll just have to tune up the old original Delco-Remy after all. They installed an 8v battery instead of fixing the electrical system the proper way and in the process messed with the old regulator. All the nonsense is out of the truck now and it's back to 6v like it was meant to be.
Thanks again for the specs.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I work a parts store-an old school independent w/books & wierd stuff that folks need-bolts, screws, Dorman stuff like molding clips/spring center bolts/freeze plugs, I make batt cables & hydraulic hoses you name it

Well thanks for the info, sure would be nice to get some of those old parts books posted somewhere like on Keith Hardy's TOCMP before it's to late. One day all too soon those "Old School Indipendents" are going to be over run by the big box autoparts and all that old information will end up in the dumpster out back to make room for the computers.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

This store has already been run over(autozone/advance/oreillys)& is barely hanging on. Advance sells a brake caliper for $3 less than it costs me to buy it.

People want cheap.

Well when they lock the doors to gut the building and put up the Napa sign, stand by the dumpster and grab all the old parts books. I wish I would have done that back when I was a Chevy Parts man.

DG

That's a sad commentary on reality. I'm in a family business myself, the thing that has kept us going against the national companies is our work ethic and customer service. It also helps to find a niche, I.e. Vintage part knowledge, and expertise in your case. Good luck to you!

we def have the niche-I can look up a seal using measurements, we make hyrdo hoses(even NAPA does not-nobody who works there can make them)etc-just not enough biz-not much profit on a $5 seal...

Funny I should run across this thread exactly one year after I first posted it. I've been
having problems with that Standard Motor Products VR1 that I got such a deal on last
year from Rock Auto. The cutout relay has been sticking and I can’t nail down the reason.
So I just picked up another one today but this one was twice as much as the one from
Rock Auto. Hope this one outlasts the last one, especially since I've only been driving the
truck again since the end of September after a two year layoff, which means I only got
1,500 miles out of that regulator.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny,

Can you tell why the voltage regulator failed?

That part is a black-box mystery to me.

Before anyone posts the stupid-simple answer, "cheap parts from China" (which is a numbskull's mantra --> cheap parts from anywhere are simply cheap parts), I would like to bore/amuse you with a story.

I will always remember the cheap USA voltage regulator that I purchased from JC Whitney in 1970. I put it in my 48 1/2 ton panel and took off from Charlottesville to Virginia Beach. After a fine "trip", on the ride home, with 6 friends in the panel, at 2am on Rte 250 west, the lights got real bright and then real dim.

For some randomly ridiculous reason, I had a flashlight (go figure) and I checked out the engine compartment. Somehow I had the clarity of mind (smile) to notice that solder was splayed out all around any opening in the generator.

I knew nothing about automobile electrical systems, but I somehow felt assured that the new voltage regulator must have "over-charged" the generator and it fried (note: I had just learned that the 216 engine only needed one set of points).

We drove on the battery-power until the lights were so dim that we could not see. We pulled off the road and slept until the sun rose. For some reason, the truck started in the morning and it got us home (about 80 miles) on the "juice" in the battery.

From this experience, I gained a respect for quality parts - for the next 5 years I bought/pulled used GM parts from rotting trucks in Leon's Auto Parts ("the walking man's friend" here 'tis - it is still selling parts).

Sorry about boring anyone who had so little to do that you read this to the end.

Denny, I hope your new voltage regulator lasts as long as my used one has.

Nope, it's the worst kind of bug, it's intermittent! It’s been stickin' every time at start up
for several weeks and the last couple of days it's been working just exactly as it should
and I taint touched a thing other than to take some voltage measurements.

According to Standard Motor Products Inc. these are "Made in USA" and as fur as I know
they are the only ones still making 6v 35 amp regulators now days, so there taint much
choice.

If I can squeeze another project in this winter I'd like to make a bench setup with an AC
motor belt driven Chevy generator where I can bench check and adjust the regulators. As
is commonly known the replacement regulators don't have the screw adjustments that the
original Delco-Remy ones had so fine adjustments are much more difficult to make by
bending tabs. It would be a lot easier making them at the bench in the middle of winter
rather than leaning over the fender while getting Affiliated with Monoxide Carburetion in
a closed garage.
DG

Denny are you going to incorporate some way to vary the speed on your test bench? If not it would be hard to set the cut out relay.I guess you could let the belt slip.

Haven't engineered it yet, just in the light bulb stage, you know, another one of my bright
ideas.
I've got a bunch of small motors around here to choose from and I've got a rather large
variac (20amp) that I could use to regulate the speed. I've been looking for a good use for
it because it's really to big for the radio bench. The inrush current it so large that it trips
the breaker unless I hit the phase just at the right point and I haven't had a reason to buy
an expensive time delayed breaker.
DG

Any 6V regulator can be adjusted to control the generator max output at 35 amps- - - - -just change the spring tension on the current regulator. Just be sure the generator is wound to produce that much current without overloading the armature.

A generator/regulator test bench is easy to fabricate, and you don't need a variable-speed motor. Just use a 1/3 HP 1725 RPM motor, and run the generator at about a 1:1 ratio with the motor (Same size pulley on the motor as the generator). Put a 0-150 Ohm variable resistor in the field circuit that can handle about 5-10 amps and control the armature voltage by varying the resistance in the field circuit. That would be a good way to use that Niehoff Volt/Amp tester, as well as using it as a portable unit.
Jerry

I disagree if you use a pos grd reg on a neg grd system you will have problems.

Okey dokey, now we got some discussion going! Not sure where in this thread there was
a mention of a regulator being polarity sensitive but lets run with that though any way.
Since the Delco-Remy three unit regulators were simply DC operated relays, why would
it make any difference if the current thru the coil was in one direction rather than the
other???
I can understand your concern if we were talking about a solid state voltage regulator in
an alternator but I can't see where it would make a difference in the type that were using
in the fifty vintage trucks.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

The original-equipment Delco regulators were polarity-sensitive. Most aftermarket replacements work on either polarity. Some of the internal wiring is slightly different on positive VS negative ground regulators- - - -but I don't remember the difference at the moment. Usually, the regulator housing will be stamped to indicate pos. or neg. ground, or the part number will be different. GMC truck regulators would be the most common ones with positive grounding. I'll see if any of my reference material can explain the difference. Are we dealing with a 6V system?
Jerry

I'm not dealing with any regulator when it comes to the polarity question, Jerry. But the
subject of polarity was mentioned and unless the regulator is one of the heavy-duty ones
for the commercial electrical systems, I can't think of any reason for it to be polarity
sensitive. If there is a valid reason I’m open to enlightenment.

I've got an original 1118301 regulator here and it is indeed stamped 6V-N which I can
only assume means the it was slated for a Negative ground electrical system. But that's
the whole point, I see nothing in the wiring of the relays that would make it polarity
sensitive. Might just be a reason for GM to justify having one part number for Chevy and
another for the GMC regulators. The 1118300 series three unit regulators wiring is well
documented in Delco-Remy's bulletin 1R-116 and it make no mention of polarity in there
unless of course I missed it, which wouldn‘t be the first time.

To my way of thinking, it makes no difference to a relay pole piece whether it's North or
South when it’s only purpose is to pull down none polarized armature. The parallel
windings will work in just the same relationship to their series windings no matter what
the polarity of the system is.
DG

It's probably the dual winding on the cutout relay that's different. The direction it's wound around the armature would have an effect on how well it neutralizes the magnetic field when the reverse current happens on shutdown. That's critical, as an opposing field must be created to allow the cutout relay point spring to snap the contacts apart at the instant the fields cancel each other out. Otherwise, the reverse current holds the points shut, and allows the field to re-establish itself and discharge the battery through the stuck points.

Sounds sort of like your situation, doesn't it? We dealt with those problems quite often back when DC charging systems were almost all generator-equipped, before alternators became popular. I don't expect to change your mind about what's happening- - - -I've pretty much given up on ever doing that- - - -just relating what we dealt with back when the family shop was the most respected automotive electrical place in Nashville.
Jerry

Yes, and that was the point I’ve been trying to get across in the last half of this thread. If
when the generator is charging the series coil is north the shunt coil is north also and
aiding the series coil, if you look at the circuit with the polarity reversed and the series
coil was now south then the shunt coil will also be aiding the series coil with a south
polarity. In either case when the battery voltage exceeds the generator output then the
shunt coil would cancel out the series coil opening the cut out relay. The coils in the
cutout relay will operate the same way in relation to each other no matter what the applied
polarity.

And as far as changing my mind, nope, you probably won't change my mind unless I hear
a logical explanation of why a Delco-Remy three unit regulator would be polarity
sensitive. You got me peg buddy, I should have been born in the ‘show me state’ cus I
never have believed anything on faith alone. So please, lets not start throw mud around.

What I was experiencing was not at all like what we’ve varied off on with our discussion
about the polarity reversal. We got side tracked over that cuz someone posted something
about regulators being polarity sensitive and I dared question that.

My cutout relay points were not sticking, they were not even closing at start up, not even
if I gave them a little bump. But after running for a few miles or a few minutes then the
armature would pull in and all would be normal for the rest of the trip. And now for
almost a week it's been just as it should be, no problem what so ever at start up, not even
one time.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I don't rely on faith alone, either, but I do tend to believe what I was told repeatedly by GM field engineers and training center instructors for the 20+ years I attended their courses and interacted with them in several top-rated shops.
Jerry

Feeling my way back thru the cobwebs of my memory I beleive I remember something about the points being different materials to compensate for the normal transfer of material due to current flow and if they were reversed the transfer would accelerate.I beleive this came from the delco course at GM training center in 1954.

If I could see some documentation I'd certainly accept that, I suppose it is a possibility.
DG Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Direct quote from my Delco-Remy maintenance bulletin for D-R STANDARD 3-UNIT CIRCUIT "A" MODEL 1118825
Bulletin #1R-117, dated 9-15-53:

REGULATOR POLARITY

Some regulators are designed for use with negative grounded systems while others are designed for use with positive grounded systems. Using the wrong polarity regulator on an installation will cause the regulator contact points to pit badly and give short life. As a safeguard against installation of the wrong polarity regulator, all regulators of this type have the model number and the polarity clearly stamped on the end of the regulator base.

I rest my case.
Jerry

Very interesting - I know nothing about voltage regulators (except what I posted above - which proves I know nothing).

Oddly, voltage regulator 1118825 is somehow replaced by the dual polarity 12v voltage regulator:
http://www.motorcityreman.com/deoe92921111.html

And, even more oddly, here is NOS unit - 1955 12v Corvette
http://www.autopartsobsolete.com/cart.php?m=search_results&search=1118825

Here's another unit - 12v dual polarity.
Chinese: http://cn.oemol.com/search/searchoem.asp?keywords=1118825
English: http://cn.oemol.com/oem/en_oem_detail/25311/1118825/*.html

I never rest my case, until I sleep. And, I am going to sleep.

Very interesting Jerry, that's just the kind of documentation that I need to convince me.
That takes it out our hear say and puts it into “I rest my case.” Can you believe it, I used
to drive my teachers nut in school with the same sort of questions. Thanks for not givin‘
up on the subject.

I've been back over 1R-115 for the 1118200 series dated 1-6-49 and 1R-116 for the
1118300 series dated 2-8-49 several more times and that statement isn't in either one of
them. Makes me wonder if both contacts were the same on the earlier regulators, my
guess would be tungsten, then at some point in the early 50’s some bean counter laying
awake brain storming one night, figured out he could save a nickel on every unit by only
using tungsten on one contact. As we’ve seen many times, they were notorious for
figuring out ways to save a penny here and a penny there. Those pennies times a million
added up to profit and probably a bonus for the guy that thought it up.

Any remote chance you could post a copy of that Bulletin 1R-117 for all eyes to see???
I’d like to have a copy to add to my research archives.

And once again I gotta mention, that it would be nice to have those 10 pages submitted to
Keith so it could be posted with the other D-R service bulletins archived at TOCMP.
Then we wouldn't have to go thru three pages of discussion next time this comes around.

Thanks to the digital revolution and people like Keith Hardy it’s now possible to archive
these documents before they’re lost forever, but the first step is to get it to his desk.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I have no doubt that some regulators have one-way polarity.

It looks like the original 1118825 regulator had one-way polarity. However, that is a 12v regulator.

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1953-1956-cadillac-voltage-regulator-138741167

Just because I like documentation, it would also be nice to see a mid-50s 6v alternator document.

And, just as Denny noted Kieth Hardy has kindly provided that information for some 6v electrical equipment - see page 4, BULLETIN 1R-111 12-1-48 (DELCO-REMY Electrical Equipment Service & Operation Manual Operation and Maintenance Handbook DR-324).

Well there you go Tim, that shoots my bean counter theory out of the box don't it.
I didn't look at the 1R-111 document earlier because it didn't apply when I first
started this thread. Looks like DG and his dyslexia just missed page four in the
other documents.

Thanks to all who jumped in, I don't know about anyone else but I learned a few
new things from this discussion.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

We wouldnt have had all this bloviating if you had heeded my first post. I dont pull this stuff out of my a-- its based on 57 years of expierence.

Well if its credit for havin' a good memory you got it buddy. However ya‘ll do sound like
your feelings are hurt and I‘m sorry if you feel that way so I‘ll explain why I pursued my
line of questioning. You see, you pulled a 57 year old memory on the top of your head
and I quote, "Feeling my way back thru the cobwebs of my memory." The others guys,
Tim and Jerry documented it. Sorry again for questioning a memory you had from 1954
but as I admitted earlier, in my 69 years experience I’ve learned not to believe everything
that I hear, I gotta see the merchandise before I buy it. And I’ve run across a lot of experts
in my time that had done things the wrong way their whole life. Jerry and Tim pointing
out that I must have been skipping page four of the D-R bulletins and after reading thru
the documentation for the 15th time I finally saw what was right in front of me all the
time.

So ya’ll gotta forgive me cause I really am dyslexic and sometimes reading something 15
times still isn’t enough and it jumps out an grabs me on the 16th pass. And I really did
drag copies of those bulletins around with me for a couple of weeks reading them in the
reading closet, reading them while I was waiting for my “big old wife” at the grocery
store, and reading them before the sandman dusted me at midnight.

Now my reading problem just may be the reason again for my missing something, but I've
read this thread over and over and still can't figure out why you brought up the polarity
issue early on in the discussion? That was what got me off on that polarity tangent in the
first place.

And I think we did also establish another fact, that is that voltage regulator relays will
operate just fine on either polarity it’s simply a matter of both contacts being made of the
same material. And that is most likely why the replacement regulator sold nowadays, the
Standard VR-1, is cataloged for use on both Positive and Negative electrical systems, that
is, both Chevy and GMC.

So in the end, at least in my mind, the water is running clear. I believe that anytime this
question is pulled out of the archives there will be no doubt about the reasoning behind
the cautions in the documents for the original D-R voltage regulator polarity. Also I think
it’s clear that the modern day aftermarket replacement regulators can swing either way.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Bloviating? That "first post" might have been succinct and correct, but I leaned nothing from it (Jerry had already confirmed with a documented-reference that one-polarity voltage regulators were common). Denny only asked to see the document - he did not doubt Jerry.

And, as Denny notes, we also now know that many replacement voltage regulators can go both ways.

On the other hand, it should be noted that bloviation refers not only to "long winded" it refers to "empty and pompous". Where do we see that, above?

Bloviating? That "first post" might have been succinct and correct, but I learned nothing from it - you disagreed, apparently with Jerry or with Denny, or with???

Later, Jerry confirmed with a documented-reference that one-polarity voltage regulators were common. Denny only asked to see the document - he did not doubt Jerry.

And, as Denny notes, we also now know that many replacement voltage regulators can go both ways.

On the other hand, it should be noted that bloviation refers not only to "long winded" it refers to "empty and pompous". Where do we see that, above?

Thank you Jerry, and Denny, and others who continued to post information and documentation.

Are you guys related to my wife? She hates it when Im right also.