The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts 1951 2 ton power steering conversion

I am new to the forum and I just purchased a 1951 2-ton that I plan on transplanting a cummins diesel into. I first want to upgrade the drivetrain and steering before doing the diesel install. I found the article in Tech Tips about doing the P-30 swap which is the way I am looking at going. The only area that still seems uncertain is the power steering upgrade. (I did a search under "power steering" and didn't come up with anything) Can anyone give any advise, or point me in the right direction for this? I found a late 60 or early 70's C4500 that has factory power steering that would require me to cut the inside fender well to mount the box on the outside of the frame further forward. Has anyone tried this? Any info would be appreciated.

There are options, but it's pretty much find a box and see how you can make it work.

I used an IH Scout II gear box on my 2 ton, but it won't work with the P-30 steering linkage, although it will work with 3500HD axle (I-beam) linkage.

The truck I'm working on now I will attempt to use a box off of an Isuzu cab over truck, should work with P-30 axle and mount more nearly in the original location, although inner fender trimming will be necessary.

Grigg

Hey Grigg, a couple of questions. I talked with a truck salvage yard and they said the p-30 only came with 19.5 wheels. Is that true, or can I find one with the 22.5's? Also, would the Isuzu MPR style front axles work for this application? There is a salvage yard that has several of these they will sell pretty cheap. I am finding that not all "delivery van" style trucks are right. Is there something more specific I should ask for, i.e. wheel size, GVWR, etc. Also what about a old motor home chassis?

I just re-read your article and see that they did come w/ 19.5's. That makes me wonder if the Isuzu with 22.5's would be a good choice.

It's really all up to you and what you're trying to do, and what you can do. There is nothing bolt in and there are no kits. I can try to help with what I've done and seen but if you're headed a different direction you'll have to do a lot of your own thinking, and don't forget to let us know what you figure out.

I like the P30 axle and the hard to find 22.5" wheels. Pretty sure any axle you find other than original or older is going to be to wide. So if you find a more suitable modern swap please tell us about it!

Your tape measure is your best friend.

Grigg

Your right there. I can't seem to get enough measurements. Just when i think I have them all I need another.

The Rockwell RS 17 144 family is a pretty heavy duty alternative for the rear end. Backing plate to plate it is short enough, but the wheels are the big rig 10 lug 22.5's. There is no higher gearing for the one I have (6:17). The Rockwell is available all the way up to 2:60's.

The front end is even tougher. Everyone around here seems squeamish about welding an i-beam. The Dodge cab and chassis, and the Ford F550's have a tubular front axle that would be much easier to cut and weld, but the steering box (arm) moves side to side instead of front to back, and I can't think of a way to make it work. 1983 appears to be the first year they went to disk brakes, and I am looking for a truck that year to see if they used the same axle/kingpin set up. Then all I would have to do is change that out, install the power steering, and I would have disc brakes and power steering, but I still wouldn't have a front end that has been "beefed up" much.

Going salvage yard hunting tomorrow. The Isuzu's have some potential, as I found a box truck today that had a narrow enough front and rear, but would need the wheels converted from 6 big lugs, to 10 lug.

You probably already know these guys but I will post them again for anyone looking to go 10 lug.

www.chromewheel.com
Ameri-T.A.W. Mfg. Co. Inc.

BTW: The front end is around 68" o.s. tire to o.s. tire. I figure that I could go as wide as 76" as long as I lift the front end enough to bring the edge of the fender well above the top of the tire so that if I am turning and hit a bump it won't contact the fender. Your thoughts?

The rear axle is the simple one, width is not as big an issue because a flat bed is usually 8' or nearly that wide, and most axles with tires installed stay under 8', some narrower.
Here's a Rockwell/Meritor 12,000 lb axle I used on another truck. It had lots of gear choices, disc brakes, and easily available 22.5" wheels. Came from a 2005 Freightliner, went into a 61 F350.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2231135140080251109IqQZWv

I' like to keep an AD truck as narrow as possible, because they are narrow to start with and look better to me that way. The rear axle I used from a P30 is just a couple inches over 7' with tires, and couldn't be any narrower or tires would rub the springs.
John's truck we're using a Dana 80 with 6 lug Budd wheels and disc brakes, forget what it came from, but it is also as narrow as can be, actually had to find narrower wheels than what we originally had so they would clear the springs. It's even a bolt in swap, spring perches are in the right place already.

Lots of rear axles to choose from....
The imported cab over trucks look tempting, and I was looking at some for that F350 project i had, but kept coming back to gearing, and they all had way to slow gears. I needed 3.54 or 3.73 and they were in the 4 and 5 range.
Wheels should not be a problem with them, 22.5" and 19.5" are available with the imported 6 lug stud centered bolt pattern, no need to adapt to something else.

The Dodge and Ford tubular front axles, or any driven front minus the differential for that matter, looked tempting to me too.. But think about the height of the truck, no room between springs and frame to mount the axle and have any travel left. And if you mount the axle under the springs it lifts the front of the truck about 5" over stock.

Steering arms and linkage is not an issue if you are also swapping steering gear boxes, lots of combinations there to make things work.
Here's my 3500HD axle with IH Scout II box and drag-link that goes left to right.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1484207681080251109ppdzRr

Next idea is to use an Isuzu cabover box and P30 steering arms and linkage with front to back drag-link
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2436693320080251109WnhCjy
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2024492560080251109VNDanJ

Don't think you'll find any spindles to easily swap and gain disc brakes on the original axle, I've already looked pretty hard. By the time they went to disc brakes on Chevy trucks they had forgotten about I-beam axles. It's was not until the 3500HD and P30's in the late 80's came along that they found an I-beam axle and disc brakes again. those spindles and brake parts are your best chance at adapting, but in my opinion it's better to narrow the whole beefy axle and not fabricate and adapt to the comparatively small original axle.

There is no "easy answer"

Grigg

Hello Everyone! (this is my first post) I have a 1954 6100 and I have been paying close attention to all these discussions related to upgrading the front axle. Has anyone looked to upgrade a old chevy 2 ton to a spicer I-80s (like they use on the International 4300s) or a F600 or F700 front axle (see links below)? My plan is to narrow the front axle as needed as I believe Griggs did. My goal is to end up with power steering and good disc brakes. I haven't been able to get measurements of either of them yet but I would love to hear everyone's "2 cents". This truck is very special to me, it was my grandfather's (first truck I drove) and I spent many hours riding shotgun as a young kid in it. I recently managed to buy it back from another family member and save it from the scrap yard (the day before it was going to happen). It runs and moves just fine. My grandfather was about half way through rebuilding it before he passed 25 years ago. It has a worked over 292, sm465, and completely rebuilt 2 speed rear from a early 70s 60 series (as far as I can tell thus far). I am working on tracking down a hydroboost system for it as well. Thanks!

http://www.heavytruckparts.net/deta...254076&store=2&searchnum=6790647

https://www.heavytruckparts.net/det...428203&store=1&searchnum=6790386

Closest I've come is thinking about an I-60 axle because I have one complete minus the I-beam. I did look at the available Spicer I-beams and they are all first to wide, which is no surprise, and secondly they are also pretty long between spring pad and king pin, making narrowing difficult because once narrow enough from king pin to king pin the springs try to land on the curved portion between the pads and the king pin, essentially the original spring pads end up in the center of the new narrowed axle. I don't think narrowing between king pin and spring pad is a good idea.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about have a look at this picture
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2766394870080251109VtZxqD
It is a Rockwell/Meritor axle and dimensions will be very similar if not exactly the same as the Spicer I-60 or I-80 as far as track width and spring spacing.
The axle pictured was narrowed about 8-10" already, and to make it fit in an AD Chevy it would need to be narrowed another FOOT. That leaves no place for the springs to land, note the huge distance between king pin and spring pads. I even made spring pad extensions to work as it was for that ford truck...

That leaves us looking for an I-beam that is more suitable and can be adapted to the Spicer outers.

I have cut and pasted the following from a previous discussion/ PM about these Spicer outers and trying to fit in an AD truck:

"The front axle parts/hubs and rotors we have are for a 1994 Spicer I-60 axle.
Looks like an International truck only axle, and king pin should be 1.359" diameter according to the parts book they gave me at NAPA"

"A newer model Spicer D-600N or D700N... has a 9 degree king pin inclination angle, and I don't know what yours I-60 has, think it is the same though?"
"I'm about 97% sure it's the same as the newer axle, and should be 9 degrees."


"Looking through the NAPA parts book the most likely non Spicer axle may be a GM one with 1.25" king pins, would need to make thicker bushings for the spindles. Again, not sure if the king pin inclination angles are the same"

"A P-30 axle appears to be a 9 degrees king pin inclination angle. and the pin diameter is 1.179", in comparison to 1.359" the I-60 should be.
I'm thinking that we can use a P30 I-beam (rated for 5,000 lb) with Spicer spindles, would need to make slightly heavier bushings, and possibly a small extra shim for the thrust bearing."

-------
So that thought process was a little over a year ago, and I still plan to narrow a P30 axle and use the Spicer disc and spindles.

However, I doubt that is a good idea for anyone else.
Reason it may work for us is the Spicer outers are new and free, and they have 6 lug Budd bolt pattern that matches the Dana 80 rear and 22.5 wheels already on hand.

The simpler solution is to use the P-30 axle complete from end to end (minus the 8-10" in the center)...

Grigg

Thanks Griggs! Your old Ford was really awesome! It looks like you "upgraded" it quite a bit. I was kind of looking to do the same thing for my old 54. Long run I was hoping to put it back into service and maybe even use it in the winter to plow for some extra $. I may be wrong but it seems as if the p30 axle will be a downgrade in terms of weight rating? I was hoping to beef it up rather than down if at all possible. To be honest I don't know exactly what the rating is for my current original front axle is, but I do know that my grandfather had it registered back in the 80s for 30k+ lbs. According to the DMV now they titled it for 25k (under NJ CDL) when I went down to transfer the title. I believe that the "new" rear axle he put in before he passed is an upgrade over the original. "Back in the day" it wasn't uncommon to see it mounded over the dump sides with stone (with the wood sides probably 8 ton of stone?), a 9 ton tag trailer behind it with a old 6 ton 310 case track loader on it. I am aware that this is excessive and probably far more than it should have been hauling (or stopping). But the old girl handled it without issue for many years. Of course you would hear the nascar like sound of the 292 screaming along through the 4 speed and 2 speed rear long before you would see her. As a little kid I thought it was the coolest sight and sound ever. (It still rates pretty high). Thanks I really appreciate your help.

The P-30 axle as far as weight ratings should fall between an original AD 1.5 and a 2 ton axle.
But just looking at it is near twice the bulk of an original 2 ton axle.

I have no problems using one in my truck and still calling it a nominal "2 ton", and will register it for 16,000 lb as printed on the door tag.
But a P-30 axle is not a huge improvement over stock as far as weight capacity goes. But then the stock frame is only good for so much too...

Grigg

Instead of changing steering boxes why not put in a bendix powwer steering add on, rare Parts In stockton Ca has the kit for this, its very simular to a ford set up with a brain in the drag link and a axle mounted ram to the tie rod a belt drive pump can be set up to work this.

Hey guys, I think I can use the Isuzu npr front axle (74" o.s. tire to o.s tire). I will have to make an adapter to mount the springs to the axle. What I like with this setup, is that if I lift the truck about 3 inches I will clear the fender well when turning with plenty of room, and still not be outside the wheel well. And I won't have to cut the ibeam axle. The extra width should help with turning radius and room in the engine compartment (which it looks like I will need to widen to fit the Cummins 6BT into). I should be able to use the Isuzu's power steering box as well.

The problem I am having is finding specs on the npr's wheels, or trying to find them in 22.5's. I would appreciate any info you may have on that. I don't mind staying with the 6 lug as long as I can run the bigger wheels in something that will look similar to the rear wheels.

For the rear I am looking at an Eaton (I will share the specs when I have my notepad with me) with pilot centered 10 lug wheels, disc brakes, and 4:11 gearing. It has square tubes and should be easy enough to mount the spring perches on. I would share pics but haven't found a way to add them here.

Do you have an email link for this company? I wonder if this would be adequate for a larger truck? Sounds interesting.

I too did some research on this topic a while back. I'll pass along what I know, Isuzu cabover comes in a GVW range from 12,000lb (NPR) to 19,500lb (NRR HD) There is a NQR and a regular NRR in between.

There is a large Isuzu salvage yard near me that let me walk around and measure to my hearts content. I measured an '01 NPR 12K GVW. I came up with 76 3/4" WMS to WMS, and 74" outside tires. The owner told me the axle itself interchanges between series, the difference being in the brakes. He said that the rotor on the NRR was thicker, and would probably add about and inch to the WMS dimension. He quoted me $600 for a complete axle, brakes, rims of my choice and sway bar.

Also the wheel bolt circle is listed as stud centered 6 on 8.75" with a 6.46 inner hole. Rims from an old Ferd F-600 are 6 on 8.75" so you should be able to match the rears at least in style by either opening up the center hole or using a shim ring. The largest rim that Isuzu offered in a 19.5" but I'm sure there are 22.5" out there. I've got some more measurements if you need them.
Scott

Salvage yard:
http://www.busbeetruckparts.com/

http://www.rareparts.com/

Check it out, it is pretty similar to Garrison add on power steering for Class 8 trucks, I see no reason why this would not work on 2 ton.

I'm not so sure on the bolt pattern, some of the imported cab overs have what resembles our familiar (like used by ford, GM, and others) 6 lug Budd wheels but turns out to be a metric version and not exactly interchangeable.

Do some checking for sure..

Here's one resource
http://www.accuridewheels.com/completeversion.pdf

The 6 lug on 8.75" Budd wheels are on page 18, and center hole is not a critical dimension because they are stud piloted.
The lug nut seat profile is a 0.875" spherical radius.
These wheels are available in 17.5, 19.5, and 22.5".
I've had good luck finding 22.5" ones in junk yards, have a few sets hanging out at my shop already.

The 6 lug on 222.25 imported stud centered wheels are on page 31.
The metric to inch bolt circle conversion translates to 8.75", same as our 6 lug Budd wheels....
The bolt holes chamfers have a 22 mm spherical radius. And that translates to 0.866" (not quite the same as our version with 0.875").
So with the proper conversion nuts if they exist they may be interchangeable???
I'm not sure, they list the wheels in a whole different section of the catalog so they are not the same and I'm pretty sure not as interchangeable as you would think?
Finding a metric threaded nut with American seat profile may be troubling.

All that said, I was pretty sure I've seen imported trucks with that metric bolt pattern and 22.5" wheels original, worth looking and asking around some more.

Here's another good wheel catalog for info
http://orrcointernational.com/PDF/Hayes%20Lemmerz%20Catalog%202.03.pdf

Good luck,
Grigg

I've had an interesting turn of events. I have a 97 Dodge in our fleet with 5 spd and 4:11 gearing that after 1 month in the field, the guys have burnt the clutch out on. I pulled the Trans. and now am thinking of using that in my 51, and putting the non-OD trans from my 90 Dodge diesel donor truck back into the 97 thereby eliminating the problem of guys who do not know how to drive standard trans. With 4:11 diff, that will make the truck peppy, but no top end. Soooooo - I am thinking I will use the Dodge diff in my 51, and replace the other with an axle that is available with 3:73 (approx) gearing. Because of the width of the Dodge axle, I couldn't use wheel adapters to go to 22.5 wheels, so I would need to change the hubs. Has anyone ever converted the Dodge (Dana 80) and been able to go to 22.5 wheels???

Also, I appreciate the links for the import info. If I find anything I will post it for sure.

I found a guy who has several Isuzu NPR front axles that he will sell for $250 ea if anyone is interested.

I have a Dana 80, not Dodge, with the 6 lug Budd bolt pattern, and it has 22.5" wheels on it right now.
I doubt but am not sure if you could bolt this big caliper bracket in place of the dodge brakes, or make a new flange to weld to the axle tube, the hubs may interchange, but not sure on that either.
But if that is your goal by the time you find another one of these Dana 80's with 6 lug Budd hubs you may as well use it and leave the Doge stuff alone.

Grigg

It's been awhile but I wanted to update everyone on what I've found and done. The project is moving along nicely.

I used an Isuzu NPR front axle. $500 @ American Truck Salvage in Phoenix, AZ (with p/s box). For wheels, Jim @ WheelsNowinc.com was very knowledgable about these wheels. He told me the NPR is 6 on 222.25, w/ 164 mm bore, (I forgot to write down the offset) but the 6 lug 22.5 bud wheel fits it. (part #28157). This does widen the front axle but it still fits under the wheel well and looks good. I am using the NPR power steering unit and will adapt a steering linkage to it. I have to remove the index groove in the steering arm so I can re-position it for my application. Since I am putting a 6 cyl diesel in this truck I have to rebuild the inner fender well anyway. (widened for engine). I am going to make it a bolt in removable fender well so I can get to the side of my engine if I need to. I built perches for the springs (the original are narrower) and also incorporated front (and rear) airbags and a shock mount. I will try using a Dodge front shock since it is shorter than the Isuzu but should give me plenty of range of motion.

One negative about the NPR to consider. When turning the tire may come in close contact with the rear of the fender and may require me to trim and slightly re-shape the back of the fender. (I won't know for sure until I inflate the airbags and see what my actual ride height will be). This probably won't be noticeable to most people, but since my cab is already painted it would create extra paint and body work I was hoping to avoid.

Off-topic for this thread: I am using a I.H. N175 rear axle with 4:44 gearing, disc brakes, 10 lug hub pilot wheels. Rear airbags, stock Dodge non-overdrive (727) transmission with Gear Vendor unit making it in effect a 6 spd automatic w/ overdrive. Stock gas tank with a bed mounted transfer tank plumbed to auto fill my tank when it gets below 3/8, cut off at 7/8, and cut off the transfer and give me a low fuel light when the transfer gets below 1/4. Don at Isspro is working on the switched sending units for me. The fuel will be pumped and conditioned with an Airdog mounted on the frame under the drivers running board. The battery box will have to be enlarged but will remain under the passengers feet inside the cab.

Now on to air intake and braking issues...

"Scott's50", did you happen to get any measurements from the front end of an NQR or was that the same as the NRR you spoke of? Also, I am coming across NPR front axles listed with listed weight ratings of between 5,000 and 8,000 pounds. Any idea on why the range? Thanks!

Do you have any pictures? (of everything else too)
I have a couple Isuzu power steering gear boxes I also plan to use on AD trucks, haven't installed one yet but looks reasonably simple.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2383303470080251109BGdbLO

Curious what you've done?

Grigg

Grampsold54,
The measurments I have are from a NPR. According to the fellow that runs the yard the measurements from a NQR or NRR would be essentially the same. I did not confirm this myself.
Scott

Grigg,

You may have already found it, but I figured out how to paste a link to my Facebook album. It is in my signature line. I don't have any pics of the box attached to the frame yet, but as soon as I do I will put them in the album. I plan to attach the p/s unit to a plate, then attach it to the frame just in front of the airbag setup. I should be able to use the original steering (pitman) arm, but will have to make a new drag link since it will be much shorter than the NPR, and straight.

Are you taking bump steer into consideration and mounting the PS gearbox where it needs to be to minimize it?

Usually with draglink level and as long as half a leaf spring so both the spring and the draglink are working in a similar fashion; so they move together over bumps and the truck stays on track.

Grigg

Grigg,

Thanks for the tip! I was kind of wondering how changing the geometry might change the steering characteristics. The level part won't be too hard, but I will have to move it forward more to get the 1/2 a leaf distance. I was going to need and extra joint in the steering linkage anyway, so I should be able to do it. How do you feel about adding a steering damper?

I don't know that you'll need a steering damper, I didn't on my 1 ton with an axle from a 3500HD.

I do have a few different damper setups from the 3500HD and P30 axles I have.. haven't felt the need to install one though.

Grigg