The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop Boxing a 1934 frame?

Does anyone have an opinion on frame boxing? I am planning to put a 350 cid v8 in my 1934 1/2 ton and am wondering if boxing is necessary. The cross members are riveted to the frame rails currently and I was thinking that maybe welding them in would be enough? If I do box, I would do the whole length not just sections. I also understand that the frame needs to be able to flex a bit and this would limit that function. I also have a problem with too much modification as I would like to keep the truck fairly original. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Red

My opinion,
Leave it alone.

Grigg

Dont know if it is actually nessecary,but if you do box it be careful how you do the welding.Dont weld to long in one spot,move around,do a spot here thn jump over to another place and weld a little bit.It is possible to warp your frame by getting it too hot,in a small area.Just my opinion,hope this helps you out.I would think that just boxing the front portion of your frame would be good enough to add a small block V/8 into it.When I put the M2 frontend in my 55 I boxed probably about the front 25%of the frame,it also has a 350 SB in it,everything has worked out just fine.

Thanks for the advice guys. I think I will leave it alone. I am not drag racing, hopefully it will just be a reliable daily driver, nothing too stressful for the old girl.

Red

Good plan!

"Does anyone have an opinion on frame boxing?"

Red, from what I've seen in almost 66 years of life everyone has an opinion. In the case of frame boxing, what value does an opinion have unless it is the opinion of an automotive engineer or an experienced fabricator?

I have a restored '36 Chevy pickup that I drove for about 50,000 miles as a rat rod in the mid to late 60s before I restored it. As a rat rod is had a mildly hopped up Chevy 283 and a B & M Hydrostick. The rails were not boxed and I got away with that.

My present street rod is a fiberglass replica '32 Ford roadster and one of my neighbors has a nearly identical car with one difference. My rails are fully boxed and his are not boxed at all. We both got these cars about 7 years ago. Right away I noticed that when his car was standing still and he turned his steering wheel (Vega stering) the left side of his engine would move up and down. My frame did not and does not flex like that. A couple of years ago the left side of his frame cracked all the way around just behind the front cross member. I'm not enough of an expert to say whether boxing would have prevented that.

I've boxed a lot of frames for round track racing, particularly dirt trackers. The frame has to be rigid enough to take suspension load adjustments without flexing excessively for changing handling. Of course, the roll cage adds a lot of rigidity to those frames, in addition to the box structure. Instead of completely enclosing the open section of the frame, I prefer to cut big elliptical holes in the boxing plates. It makes it much easier to run fuel lines, brake lines, and wiring that way. and any or all those things are easier to replace when necessary. The holes also keep the weight down somewhat.
Jerry

Watch power block TV on how to do it .There boxing a Ford Ranger frame.

Good Idea, I never considered that.

I had a '32 Chevrolet coupe that I put in a very strong 265, about 400 H.P. I didn't box the frame (at first) and it would pull the left front tire about 6" off the ground when I left hard. After a few months it cracked the frame clear through. I got another frame and fully boxed it, no more lifting the left whell and after about 10 years no cracking or any problem. Definitely box the frame, but be careful to not concentrate heat from welding in one spot too long, you will put a twist in it that you can't get out. Put the frame on stands to keep it square and level and check it often for any changes while welding. You will never regret boxing it.

I'm a welder & fitter by trade with 25 yrs. working in fab shops. I'm what you might call an experienced fabricator. I agree with grigg, leave it alone. our gm trucks had strong frames anyway, they had to be because of the wood frame body. ford frames were designed to twist & flex because of the buggy spring suspension. most of the time a frame only needs beefing up in an area where it's been modified like "C"ing for lowered suspension or "Z"ing to lower the car, or adding a power steering box. but most of the time the boxing people do or want to do is completely unnessecary. ive been looking at old gm truck frames my whole life & seen very few that were cracked or broken. for a gm truck frame that's in reasonably good condition adding a modern V8, auto trans, power steering & brakes does not require boxing regardless what you've seen done to model "A" & 32 ford frames in the street rod magazines.
welding on your trucks chassis needs to be given serious consideration, especially if you're not very experienced. excess heat can cause warping & twisting before you know it. improper welding can mke your frame weaker. the frame & the weld metal are different tensile strengths & hardness creating a stress point. as the frame twists & flexes going down the road a crack can form.
2 other things i'll point out then i'll get off my soap box.
1) your welded joint is only as strong as the the thinnest part. two pieces of 1/8" plate welded together is not going to be stronger with a 1/2" tall x 1/2" wide weld bead. more likely it will cause the aforementioned problems. the weld bead need only be as thick as the thinnest part.
2) this is the worst thing i've seen ameteur welder/rodders do on chassis. a guy will make a weld raise his hood & see that it's a bad weld that won't hold. so they throw the hood back down & run another weld over it..........or twice......or 3 times. it may look better but you still have a crappy weld at the root that won't hold. if it looks bad grind it out COMPLETELY! & then lay another weld.
if you're contemplating welding on chassis, practice on a lot of similar scrap metal & get a pro welder to mentor you.
& DON'T USE THAT GASLESS FLUX CORED WIRE!!!! it makes a brittle weld that isn't suited for twisting & flexing of an auto body or frame.
oh yeah, i almost forgot. guys are always asking whether they should get a 110 or 230 volt mig welder. get the 230. especially if you intend to weld on a frame. the 110 welders don't put out enough heat for chassis work.
i know the 110 machines are cheaper. the flux core wire is cheaper because you don't have to buy a gas bottle. if you need to save money that bad you don't to be restoring antique trucks & building hot rods.
Robert

Robert, for really good-looking frame fabrication, I prefer to TIG weld. Nothing like a close-fitted thinwall tubing frame, with all the joints TIG'ed in place! Of course, we ran miles of 4" stainless tubing at E&J Gallo winery that way!

Jerry

what can i say tig is great, but you have to go really slow & the chance of warping is even greater. tig welding & equipment is not something for the average hobbyist. i have both tig & mig set ups at home & most of the time i go for the mig machine. i'm shaky handed & never should have been a welder in the first place but a welding fab shop is where this dumb redneck high school dropout ended up so that's what i became. holding the rod in 1 hand & the tig torch in the other has always been difficult for me, but i did learn to run a passable looking bead with wire. very nice looking & strong results can be had with mig. it requires proper joint preparation-meaning CLEAN- consistent technique & removoval of splatter. a nice consistent mig weld can look just as good as tig. i'm building a 39 chevy bobber truck. the frame under the cab & bed will be built with 2x3 & 2 x4 rectangular tube. i'm using the original front springs & axle so i'll need the rails in the front to have a curve or "hump". i'll do that by using 4 seperate pieces of plate to make my own tube in the desired shape. a corner to corner joint will provide 100% penetration & a nice chamfered edge just like a tube. if i can get back into practice ( fortunately i don't make my living that way anymore ) before i weld it i'll be able to do it without any grinding afterwards, it'll look that good.
Robert

Robert, I have a Miller synchrowave 200 tig-stick machine. Do you see any advantage in adding mig capability? I've stick welded steel varying in thickness from 1/16" up to 1/4" without any problem with the stick setting on the machine I have. I only use tig for stainless and aluminum.

Most of the welding is making little aluminum parts for my street rod, aluminum carts for my wife's dog carting competition and steel gates and things like that for my rural property. Once in a blue moon I build an exhaust system. The machine is only fired up about once very month or two.

What do you think?

Looks like I've poked a bit of a hornet's nest here but I definitely appreciate all the feedback you guys! I will most likely leave the frame alone as I also don't want to destroy a 76 year old piece of history. And Robert, when I do weld on the frame I will make sure I use a 230 volt machine with gas,(there was a badly done cut and straighten job on the frame which I will have to repair). My main concern was destroying the frame by not boxing and having a crack develop or a major warp. But if you guys think the frame can handle the torque of a stock V8 I will gladly leave it as is. What about welding the cross members to the rails as they are only riveted right now? Would this give the frame a little more stability? It seems like there is excessive movement at some of the cross member rivets but maybe this is by design. My goal is to keep the truck as original as possible with the exception of the drive train and will not be driving with a lead foot.

Thanks

Red

A riveted joint by design can have some give. Welding a riveted crossmembers to the frame could be asking for trouble and cracks.

If you have loose or damaged rivets I would remove them and install new ones as original.

Grigg

Redwelter, when I restored my '36 Chevy pickup in the early 70's after running it as a rat rod, I totally disassembled it down to the last little piece. At that time I welded the frame-cross member joints and replaced the loose rivets.

So far no problem with the welds that were made using an AC buzz box stick machine and 6013 rods. As for damaging the value of the truck, I drove it from Southern California to the 1976 VCCA national meet in Colorado Springs, camping along the way on the desert and in the rocky mountains. In the judging I won first in class T-2 (1929-36 commercial vehicles)against the trailer queens that never touched an actual road surface. The judges crawled all over and under the vehicles being judged and nobody noticed the welds nor other non-stock items like modern tie rod ends on the tie rod and on my home made drag link.

The trucks were probably originally riveted because arc welding was very crude then and covered electrodes didn't exist. When I was a kid, one of the neighbors was a welder and he told me how difficult it was to use bare stick welding electrodes and what a mess the welds were.

Does your '34 have the original 3-speed transmission?

yar, that's pretty much what i do with mine, save it for aluminim & stainless. my 175 amp lincoln stick/tig rig is very similar to yours. iirc you won't be able to put a wire feeder on that machine, you'd have to buy another machine. my mig is a 175 amp & 1/4" plate in a single pass is pushing it's limits. for 1/4" & above i like to use stick with 7018 rods ( try them sometime you'll like them alot better than the 6013, much stronger), for 1/4" & down i like to use mig. it's much better for the thinner metals, you can make a much longer, consistent weld without so much heat distortion & better appearance.
but to get back to your original question do i see any advantage in you adding mig capability to your set up? if i could only choose 1 between mig, tig & stick, i'd pick mig hands down. in a shop setting it's just more versatile. but as you stated your comfortable with what you have. do you feel like spending the $$$? some of this isn't about what's right or wrong but about what experience you have & what's available to you. my advice for the hobbyist whose contemplating buying a machine to use at home on resto/rodding projects && whatever is to go with a 230 volt name brand ( miller, licoln, hobart all good) machine & a 75/25 mix argon co2 gas bottle. you could occasionally rent other gases to do stainless or aluminum. lower cost spool guns are available from lincoln & hobart for the small machines now. mig is cheaper & easier to learn.
redwelter i don't think of sharing experience as hornets nest. my desire is to help help folks where i can, not to show off my brilliance (!) or try to one up somebody.
grigg i also agree with you about welding the crossmembers in as opposed to just replacing a rivet or 2. it's certainly alot less trouble & if you don't have access to rivets grade 5 or 8 nuts & bolts & some loctite will do just as well. my apologies for the long winded posts.
Robert

I had never believed that a rivet would allow movement, and that it was a "safety" device vs. welded.
Henry Kaiser believed the same thing; google "Liberty ship" to see what happens when you weld a chassis that should be riveted.

IMHO the area that is most likely to cause a problem is where the steering box mounts to the frame. The leverage of power assist, bigger front tires and heavier engine make for a lot of stress compared to the original; if the joint isn't strong enough it will flex every time you dry-cut the wheels.

Hey Robert, by "hornets nest", I was only referring to the passionate and varied responses which is what makes this forum so awesome. I love the broad spectrum of knowledge and backgrounds and willingness to share.

Ray, my truck didn't have any of the original drive train so I will be putting in a manual 4 speed and a more recent diff from a buddies 57 step side.

The stock suspension was very stiff & the frame was designed to move....with IFS you want the suspension to work & the frame to not flex, thus the frame s/b boxed.

My 48 frame is fully boxed w/a Must II ifs.

Don Meyer-St Cloud, Fl

I am new to Stovebolt and have been reading up on boxing the frame. My question leads back to welding on the crossmembers. I have a 1934 Chevy 1/2 pickup that I am putting a 383 stroker into. I plan on putting a Must. II front end in it with a 4 link in the rear. Wouldn't it be better to fully box the frame, while welding in all the crossmembers as well, or fully box it with leaving small gaps where the crossmembers are? I guess I am just confused on how to fully box the frame if I don't weld in the existing crossmembers or by welding in custom made crossmembers. Any information would be helpful.

Thanks,
Rusty McDonald-UT