[Dec 22nd: I found a local dealership that was glad to help me out... They have a 51 1/2 ton on their lot that they got as a trade in a couple months ago... They use it to draw people into the lot, in parades, and just for fun. The general manager there appraised mine for $1000. Here's their truck: http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab100/macx/Other%20Bolts%20Around%20Here/DSCI0223.jpg
Thanks Everybody. Should be smooth sailing now to getting my title. ]
Does any stovebolter out there happen to be a vehicle dealer or insurance adjuster willing to appraise my truck from pictures on the web?
I'm looking for a low-cost (or free...) appraisal, confirming my opinion that the value of this truck is $1000 to $3000.
The purpose of the appraisal is to set the value for the required surety bond to get a bonded title.
I'm trying to keep the cost low to title this truck. I only paid $650 for the truck, so while I'm still shoping for a local professional ($200 for an appraisal so far is too rich for my budget...), I thought I'd try Stovebolt. I dont want to tow-bar it to a dealer, or have to spend the money to rent a trailor to tow it to a dealer. No luck so far shopping locally for someone with a low price to appraise a vehicle they dont get to buy or sell.
I have the form that the state of Texas wants filled out. A dealer or insurance adjuster number is required.
I can get the bond eligibility application approved at the $12,000 NADA average retail value, but that translates into a bond price that, again, is more than I hope to spend to title the truck.
The truck does not run, the engine is in unknown condition... Visually, the engine looks in great condition like it has been rebuilt... but in my book, the retail value of a rebuilt engine that does not have a warranty or guarantee, is the value of an engine core.
It has had some rust in the past, like floorboards that have been cut out and patched with generic sheet metal... It's value as a restore-able-to-original body is close to nothing... for a daily driver with dents and dings, it's great... but to ever have that showroom look again, none of the sheetmetal is ready... repair/refurbish would cost about the same as replacement with new. No serious rust issues remain, though. It has chrome running boards, but they do have rust pits and enough rust damage to the finish that "showroom" quality is not acheivable with evaporust and rubbing compound... They look great as-is on a beat up old rusty truck, but have little resale value above normal rusty dinged dented running boards.
The wiring harness/electrical system is a lost cause... It had a dead 12 volt battery in it, a 6 volt coil installed, (and a 12 volt in the parts pile), a dead 6 volt generator, and cut or missing or burned wires all over. The story as told by the seller, was the guy that sold it to him rebuilt the engine and started/ran it under 12 volts without converting the necessary componenets to 12 or installing the voltage reducers and resistors where needed... Other than the wiring system is un-usable as is, I cant find evidence to support or contradict that story... The engine does look rebuilt, but I'm not conviced that it has ever been started since then.
The seat is worth $100 or more, no doubt. Brand new upholstory on the seat, but stained a little because it was installed back in the cab where the disintigrating headliner was falling from the rusty roof.
Wheels are not original, and do not match each other, tires only hold air, they are not serviceable. Most of the wheels have at least 1 or 2 broken lug bolts. Front and rear suspension is good. Original brakes, restoreable with minimal replacement, but non operational as-is.
Radiator looks new or rebuilt. Rusty water in it though, and since the engine doesnt run, I dont know if the radiator leaks or not.
To sum up, here is my opinion. The truck is worth more than the $650 I paid for it, but not more than $1000 as whole, at the moment. 3 years from now, by the time the bond expires, I hope to still have less than $3000 invested in it, and if it's running and titled, then it would probably cost me up to $6000 to replace it quickly, but I'd be happy to get the $1000 to $3000 back that I had in it, in the event that the deceased owner's heirs ever came up with ownership papers and I had to cash-in my bond and give up the truck.
So, I'm looking for a low-cost (or free...) appraisal, confirming my opinion that the value of this truck is $1000 to $3000.
Thanks Stovebolters...
Keith (and Mac... father and son... teaching my boy to love and build old iron, the way my dad taught me, and his dad taught him... I'm pretty sure that Granpa Dewey knew both Louis and Henry. And you couldnt drive through Colorado in those days without driving on the roads Grandpa built, and Granpa could drive from coast to coast, and rebuild his starter or generator or transmission anytime anywhere without spending a dime... )
Where are you located in Texas? Rural areas are usually easier to get appraisals like you need than cities. Remember this can be a used car dealer as well as a new car dealer.
I'm doubtful you'll get what you are hoping for here, but I wish you the best. (Nice meeting you and Mac last weekend.)
I can think of a few things:
1. Talk to your insurance agent used for your other policies. They might be willing to insure you truck for a stated value, and you might be able to use this with TxDOT.
2. You're trying to avoid the appraiser's cost. How much will the $12K bond cost you? Pick your poison- maybe it is cheaper to buy the bond at $12K. You buy the bond once, and it is in effect for 3 years. I bought a bond worth ~$6000 or so for $120.
3. Talk to a different person down at the tax office. I'm not implying doing something illegal, just that my county's tax assessor's office is filled with people having a VERY wide range of experience. Three visits, three stories. Make sure you have money in pocket if you hear the story you can live with. Sad but true.
Already have a call into the insurance agent, but none of his staff could help me, and he is on vacation. My schedule and his just havent synched up yet. I know he'll be able to do something for me eventually. Had a few minutes to type into Stovebolt, though. It cant hurt to ask. Sure wont get what I'm hopin to find withtout askin. As far as the tax office goes, they dont have any wiggle room on the required bond amount without an appraisal. All 4 times I contacted the regional Dallas office, I've been taken to Stephanie. She's doin her job right, and has my confidence that she will go out of her way to smoothly process and handle this thing. But I've got to find a less-than-average-retial appraisal on my own. The 12K value translates to an $18k bond for about $300. $120 for a $6K bond really is what I'm shootin for, or better. A $4000 appraisal will reel in the $6000 bond requirement...
Next week I may start calling other insurance agents, too. The conflict of interest with the insurance agents is that they make the money either through the bond premiums of an over-priced appraisal, or holding me hostage and charging me for the appraisal.
When Frisco was a small town of 3000 when we moved here, I new the used car dealers and they would have done this for a cup of coffee at the Royal. But now that we're over 90K in population, I dont personally know any dealers in town anymore, and everyone is all greed and no favors...
Maybe I'll get myself a dealers license, and fill the niche for $10 appraisals...
As many "no title" old cars and trucks the are bought and sold around here, I feel like I must be missing some obvious solution somewhere... If not, then demand for a generously priced bond appraisal seems like it would be pretty high...
Where are you located in Texas? Rural areas are usually easier to get appraisals like you need than cities. Remember this can be a used car dealer as well as a new car dealer.
It used to be rural... When the town was small enough that I knew everyone in town... Odd how you know fewer people once there are too many people to know...
But, that gives me an idea I hadnt thougt of... My sister lives in a rural area still, and she know just about everyone in Mills County... I feel dumb for not thinkin of that.
Dont know that she can come through for me, though, since the truck is a long way from Mills county... Not wanting to tow it somewhere is part of why getting an appraisal cheap is so hard... So if any Stovebolter has that dealer license and wants to do me a favor... I'll pay it forward and pay it backward. Well, actually, anybody every needs a favor from me, just ask, whether I owe you a favor or not...
If you have a sister around Goldthwaite there is a good chance that she may know a dealer that would do it from a photo. I use these guys for bonded titles. http://www.lawrenceautotitle.com/continue.htm They charge $100 and a bond is $100.
I have titled several cars/trucks in Texas using the "Assembled Vehicle" form. Two things here that might be difficult or unappealing to you; it takes time to make at least one trip to Carrollton, time to take it to a certified scale for weight, more time for notorized bills on the frame/body/engine, time to find a law officer to sign the form that he witnessed the vin number, a picture, short statement on why your building it, and time to fill out all the forms (10). With the time factor aside the title comes back as the current year. The last year for the LaSalle was 1940 but I have one running around that shows to be an ASSEMBLED 1993 model. Fortunately Texas doen't make you put all the safety/emissions stuff as on one that was MANUFACTURED in the current year. The forms are free, your bank will notorize for you, the law officer doesn't charge anything, and the only out of pocket is for the certified scale--5 to 10 bucks. Once done the vehicle is totally yours, no relative can claim it. A shorter method is to take it to a car pound and give the pound owner a tip to buy it back at a sheriff's auction. That pound receipt is the gold standard, it cancells ALL claims against the vehicle and guarantees a title but you must trust the owner because if someone else puts in the high bid it's gone. The Collin County Sheriff's auctions are on a monthly schedule. The final method is to have your repair shop make a bill up on it and file a mechainics lien against it. This is super strong and legal, even an IRS claim takes a back seat to a mechanics lien.
I just found out about this service. The person who recommends them is very reliable and would not recommend them if they were not legit. http://www.its-titles.com/ I think I will probably use next time I have title problems which happens with old vehicles all the time.
What happens when a person buys a title at a swap meet that is signed. The truck was put together with parts and the cab does not have the ID tag on the door post.
Can that be used for the transfer? Can a new tag be stamped and used?
Dennis -there is nothing stronger than the heart of a volunteer-
i just did a bond title on my 46 here in nc. the dmv got the value of a 46 truck out of a book that they had mine was worth 700.00 and you dont care if they say its worth 50 cents it doesent matter and it doesent change what you can get when you want to sell. the dmv came out at no charge and inspected the truck to make sure it was what i said it was and verify the vin.
Oldbluetruck, Texas has a form that you can use for a vehicle that does not have a vin tag. Contact these guys in Taylor, TX. They do this for a living. http://www.lawrenceautotitle.com/continue.htm
i just did a bond title on my 46 here in nc. the dmv got the value of a 46 truck out of a book that they had mine was worth 700.00 ... the dmv came out at no charge and inspected the truck to make sure it was what i said it was and verify the vin.
Smooth...
Philip, Do you know what "book" they used to get that value? Or can you give me the phone number or email address of the DMV office you went through so I could ask them some questions? If the book value according to the NC DMV of my '53 is in that same dollar range, maybe I can get the regional titles office here to use the same book without an appraisal...
Texas wont send someone out to do the inspection. They will accept a pencil-tracing of the serial number, and if that is not possible then there is a form they require... It's free to get the vin/serial number inspection filled out if you bring the vechicle to a state certified safety/emmissions inspection station, but we're on hour own to find and horse-trade with a certified inspector to get one to make a house-call.
My son (Mac) asked me why we dont go offer a guy in Sherman $100 for the title to his truck, since when we looked at the truck last summer, they guy wouldnt budge off his asking price because the "title alone is worth $100"... I 'splained to Mac that the title was only worth $100 on that 1 truck...
If we had pieced this truck together ourselves, we'd be going down the Johnny Cash "one piece at a time - psycho billy caddilac - title weighed 50 pounds" paperwork method (outlined by coilover) to create an assembled vehicle title... On this truck, it's way too obvious that it has not been assembled from scratch... The engine and transmission are clearly "new" additions, but the cab and bed have never been off the frame, the suspension has never been taken apart... The cleanest/safest route for me is a bonded title.... If I procrastinate for too long and put time and money into anyway, then I'll eventually have a case for a mechanics lien... but for now, If I can get an attractive appraisal, the bond title will be a piece of cake.
Man am I glad I don't live in TX I don"t even understand what a bond is for. MY insurance is cheap Through my regular agent. I just Had to bring her several pictures of the truck and I asked to insure it for 18K It was a done deal.At the time I bought it, it was worth considerably less. I had to pay sales tax on the purchase price. Plates on historical vehicles(25+old) cost $35.00 and they have no expiration date..
MacX, I think you are making the a more complicated thing out of it than it really is. All the State of Texas is concerned about is getting their 6 1/4% sales tax. However, you need to get this done before you spend money on it because then it will appraise for more and you will have paid 8 1/4% sales tax on the parts. The vehicle you have pictured should easily be appraised at less than $1000. You do not need to take it to a licensed inspector if you do a title only transfer and and put 5 year antique plates on it once you get it running. Find someone with a dealers license and describe the vehicle as non running, no brakes, major parts present, but some parts missing, and bad paint and there will be no problem. A bond is required because there is some flaw in the transfer and there is a remote chance that someone will come forward and say the vehicle is theirs. If this should happen, the bonding company will satisfy this person up to 3 times the original appraisal. If after 3 years, there is no dispute, it becomes a regular blue Texas title. I still suggest you call these people. http://www.lawrenceautotitle.com/continue.htm They are domiciled in Taylor, Texas and they do this sort of thing every day and it is all legal. They are a small business and you get a live person on the phone. They charge $100 for their services. And then you will know it is done right.
Man am I glad I don't live in TX I don"t even understand what a bond is for. MY insurance is cheap Through my regular agent. I just Had to bring her several pictures of the truck and I asked to insure it for 18K It was a done deal.At the time I bought it, it was worth considerably less. I had to pay sales tax on the purchase price. Plates on historical vehicles(25+old) cost $35.00 and they have no expiration date..
The bond title process is separate from full-coverage/liability auto insurance and registration... Once I have a clear title, an "antique car" registration for a licence plate, and antique car insurance, will be pretty low cost. (As low as any insurance for a 16 year old male would be, that is...)
When you purchased your truck, did you go through your insurance agent in order to get Michigan license plates and registration in your name? And if so, what kind of paperwork did you need to provide to your agent? Bill of sale only? Is Michigan a no-title state? If you bought a truck with no-title and it was that easy, then it does make Texas sound complicated.
What the bond is for, in Texas and many other states, is ultimately to insulate the state from the liability of an ownership dispute while providing a process to establish a new original chain of ownership for cases where the previous chain of ownership was lost or broken. In Texas, only the current legal owner can request a duplicate/replacement (complicated at best in cases for a deceased legal owner...) for a lost title. When a vehicle has be parked in a garage/barn/field for 20+ years, loosing the title, not to mention the owner, is easy to do.
The bonded title provides a clear legal resolution if an ownership dispute does come up, and sets a "statute of limitations" of sorts on how long a previous owner has to notice they have "lost" a vehicle and want it back... The bond in question is a surety bond... Essentially a cash value insurance policy. The state approves eligibility for a bonded title, and declares the bond amount required, based on 1.5 time the amount of a licensed appraisal if provided, or without an appraisal, and in my case, NADA is the source they use, and regardless of condition, they use the "average retail" value.
To get the actual title, I purchase a suretey bond, at about $15 per $1000 of value, and provide proof of the bond with the title application. The cost of the title application license plate registration itself is not expensive, but the price of the surety bond to go with the title application is what can run into several hundred dollars, if I have to insure the thing for $18000.
MacX, I think you are making the a more complicated thing out of it than it really is. All the State of Texas is concerned about is getting their 6 1/4% sales tax. However, you need to get this done before you spend money on it because then it will appraise for more and you will have paid 8 1/4% sales tax on the parts. The vehicle you have pictured should easily be appraised at less than $1000. You do not need to take it to a licensed inspector...
It probalby sounds like I am making it complicated, 'cause I am so long winded... My comment about an inspection was in reply to phillip: in his NC bond title process, the state sent someone out to verify the serial number on his paperwork... in Texas, a pencil tracing of the serial number is accepted in place of a VIN inspection form.
I very well may end up going through Lawrence title... But for the moment, I've got all my ducks in a row to land the bonded title myself, except the appraisal... The "find someone with a dealers license" part of your instructions is right where I am at...
Have a call into my sister in Goldthwaite, but I'm guessing they must be camping or something cuz I havent heard back... I'm hopeful her brother in law has a dealers license and is willing... Also waiting on a call from my insurance agent...
TxLaTx's response is proving to be right, though. Before I posted, I guess I thought there would be lots of Stovebolters that had dealers licenses, and that one of them would look at the picures and say " no problem... send me the form..."
But now that I think about it, if I was a dealer, I'd only respond like that if I wanted to open the floodgates to non-stop requests for "will you appraise my truck..."
Anyway, I'm grateful to you for your help... The info about lawrence and to ITS were sources I had not yet come accross... Plus you jogged me into thinking outside of just looking in Frisco and on the internet for an appraisor.
It's pretty clear that I'm not making direct contact with an appraisor through here, though. Sure would have been nice if the regional title office had used the same "book" as phillp's from NC. This office wouldnt budge from requiring an $18,000 bond without an appraisal... The sales tax wasnt the issue. That would be based on the "bill of sale" amount. It's strictly the liability of if a dispute comes up, the state is insulated from having required too low a bond amount. So without an outside appraisal, they dont take the applicants word for condition, and just go with "average NADA retail".
the nc division of motor vehicles has a book or database that they assign a value for a vehicle at the time of title and or tag. as you know you pay a tax so if you were to buy a 99 vett from your brother inlaw for 50 bucks they go in that book and find its value. a bond title stays on the book for three years you go to an insurance agent and for 7% of the value he insures the title for the state. so if some yayho pops up and says thats my truck the insurance company pays him the value of the truck but you are still the owner the title is clean.
oh and by the way my truck is worth 700.00 to the state of nc even in restored condition. when i put tags and insurance on i put a value on it and the insurance company charges me at that value if i total it i get that value if you dont do that you are back to 700.00 philip
I just read the ncdot requirements/instructions for bonded titles...
It has some shortcuts that are smoother than the Texas procedure... but the requirment that the vehicle be operating condition before bonding is a real corker...
Was your truck in running condition, or do they make exceptions to that rule?
Thanks for the info, phillip. I'll call or email the ncdot dmv tomorrow and see if they will tell me what value for a 53 they have "listed in the Value Schedule", and if they can fax or email me a copy of that.
the truck does have to be operational in nc. but the officer told me that it does not have to run. but it all has to be there i had to put a broke speedo in mine even though it was broke it had to be there. philip
I'll tell you what stinks to high heaven: "$12,000 NADA average retail value" that MacX wrote in the initial post. Can y'all appreciate just how skewed this is? It means that there is a $25,000 truck sold for each and every $1000 truck sold. Bull.
.... It means that there is a $25,000 truck sold for each and every $1000 truck sold. Bill
not what's meant Bill, they list "low" "average" and "high" retail values, which may be based on actual sales or not, but are for vehicles in operable condition
squeeze is right... "low" "average" and "high" refer more to the condition of the vehicle... There are descriptions that set the general requirements/qualifications for what is low, average, and high. Even the "low" classification is a very very nice running truck...
The stated values, if you choose to look at them from the defined context of what they are, are not unfair values... The jam I am in is simply that the regional title office staff does not have the authority to take me at my word, that the condition of ~my~ truck is below that of the "low" condition for NADA...
I've found any number of people that will give me the appraisal I want for $150 to $200. But, I'm better off spending that money on a higher value bond, than a low appraisal... At least if I have a high valued bond, and the wost case happens, then the cash value of the bond pays for a much nicer truck then mine will ever be.... (Depending on the type of bond I get... Some types of bonds are like insurance... Other types of bonds are like bail-bonds, where if you actually skip bail, the underwriter for the bond pays the state, but tracks you down to pay them back or else... I would really need a low appraisal if I wasnt getting a surety bond underwritten as an insurance policy... )
1953 Chevrolet 3100 1/2 ton pickup (NADA's online price guide does not make 3 window vs 5 window cab distinctions, for example, which are important distinctions that really sigificantly effect value/pricing in many case...)
Original MSRP: $1,407 Low Retail Average Retail Value High Retail $5,675 $11,900 $26,200
Low Retail Value This vehicle would be in mechanically functional condition, needing only minor reconditioning. The exterior paint, trim, and interior would show normal wear, needing only minor reconditioning. May also be a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. Most usable "as-is".
Some of the vehicles in this publication could be considered "Daily Drivers" and are not valued as a classic vehicle. When determining a value for a daily driver, it is recommended that the subscriber use the low retail value.
Note: This value does not represent a "parts car".
I'm taking them at face value: the LOW average retail value of a driver, not a parts car, is 5 grand.
Who here would be willing to pay $5000 for a "very poor amateur restoration"? In my book, that truck's value would top out in the neighborhood of maybe 1 or 2 thousand bucks, nothing more. I can't get my brain around that truck averaging $5000 retail.
I dispute their number and will gladly sell a truck fully restored by me, a very poor amateur doing a very poor amateur job, for $5000. (You wouldn't want it.)
Bill, I'm a biggot for the Advance Design and earlier trucks... But I've seen your Apache in real life... You cant be calling that truck a poor restoration, right? That's a first class truck in my book...
You're absolutely right that the NADA "values" dont reflect real-world street rates... The context of those price guidelines are "dealer" level trades... I'm pulling numbers out of thin air here, but I'll bet out of every 1000 non-parts-operating-condition "stovebolt" era trucks bought and sold in real life, less than 20 of those go through dealers... Of those 20, with the overhead of dealer margins factored in, I bet very few are under 5000... In other words, direct owner to owner or owner to dealer trades are where the action is, but those are the "wholesale" prices... The "retail" prices are the dealer level asking prices...
So yes, the numbers are way skewed...
What would be great, is if there was price/value guideline "authority" that states could use, that was based on "street" value, not "dealer" value...
North Carolina appears to have such a resource, in the "Value Schedule" they apparently use for sales tax and/or bond valuation purposes. But, in North Carolina, if your vechicle doesnt appear in their "Value Schedule", then you have to get ~TWO~ appraisals from North Carolina dealers. (It says dealers... not appraisors or insurance adjusters, but dealers...) I guess in this case, at least I'm lucky I only need to get 1 appraisal. I think my insurance agent gets back from vacation soon, so I'll find out soon what help I can get from him. I'm hoping there wont be a charge for the appraisal, and that it would be based on what he would pay for a "claim" on the current condition of the truck...
Dec 22nd: I found a local dealership that was glad to help me out... They have a 51 1/2 ton on their lot that they got as a trade in a couple months ago... They use it to draw people into the lot, in parades, and just for fun. The general manager there appraised mine for $1000. Here's their truck: http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab100/macx/Other%20Bolts%20Around%20Here/DSCI0223.jpg
Thanks Everybody. Should be smooth sailing now to getting my title.
