The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Why a T5?

I've seen so many articles and responses on this board saying how great the T5 is. For the same money in the end I could have gone with a gear vendors unit, which would allow me 8 gears. I want to keep my granny 1st. The T5 can't do that. A SM420 was used through 5 ton trucks. A t5 was used up through 305 V8s, but not 350s, they make too much torque. To build a T5 to fit a truck takes Camaro 305 guts and an S10 shifter, to be reasonably close on shifter location, yet still requires bucket seats or notching your bench. Where is the advantage here?

Devin

If you want to keep your Granny first gear then a T5 wouldn't be the transmission for you. However, if you want to be able to cruise at highway speeds and take advantage of the 216/235's torque band without turning up a bunch of revs, the T5 is a viable option. The T5 I'm using is from an S10, a non-world class box that is available for $150-300.00 and has the shifter located forward....about 6" to the rear of the stock sm420 shifter and still in front of the stock bench seat. Inexpensive and relatively simple to install in an AD truck and it makes for some fun driving!

The hybrid T5 you mentioned from behind the 305, using the S10 tailshaft, has a closer gear spread and I'll let you know how long it lasts behind a 355. I've run the FoMoCo version behind a 345 HP SBF with no problems. My new project vehicle is also set up as a cruiser so I'm not planning on much if any abuse. The shifter location is 6" forward of the front seat edge just as it is in the AD truck.

As for the price comparison, you must have some inside pricing on the GV unit.....for that kind of jingle I could just spring for a T56 and have it done with!! I don't think you'll find a transmission out there that is any tougher than the Sm420. So if you intend to use your truck as a truck, the GV unit should open up a whole new realm of possibilities. Might be kinda fun slipping it into 8th gear.........

Dave

I have a T5 HYBRID behind my torque 292 along w/ a corvette clutch. had it made for me by a transmission shop. see my photobucket.
camaro guts incased by an S10)/S15/Somona Trumac housing. Trumac made T5's w/ all interchangable parts so it is possible to make a hybrid. In a case where you do have a high HP motor I would not go w/ a T5. I'd only use them for daily driving and small work trucks, no draggin' or heavy towing .. only light towing
see inliners link in tech section tips ... tranmissions T5.
http://www.inliners.org/


Tire Diameter : 28 inches

Rear Gear Ratio 2: 3.40:1
MPH @ 3:40 ring & pinion
RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1000 8 12 18 24 32 0
1500 12 18 26 35 48 0
2000 16 24 35 47 64 0
2500 20 30 44 59 79 0
3000 24 36 53 71 95 0
3500 28 42 61 82 111 0
4000 32 48 70 94 127 0
4500 36 55 79 106 143 0
5000 40 61 88 118 159 0
5500 44 67 97 129 175 0
6000 48 73 105 141 191 0
6500 52 79 114 153 207 0
7000 56 85 123 165 222 0
7500 60 91 132 176 238 0
8000 64 97 140 188 254 0

1951 Delux Chevy P/U T~5 Camaro [guts] Hybrid in an S~10/15/sonoma
Transmission Ratios:
1st: 2.95 2nd: 1.94 3rd: 1.34 4th: 1 5th: 0.74

Looking at it I figure I can do either one for about $1000. If I were to go T5 it would take me a couple of trannies at a couple hundred apiece last I checked, plus a clutch and other details I've forgotten. I can put together a used GV for about the same money, and have a much stronger setup, plus granny gear. The whole reason I can justify my truck is for it's hauling/towing capabilities.

Devin

Have you looked at one of these?

Bill- I was not aware of the Advance Adapters unit, I'm going to have to research it more.

Devin

I get T-5's from S-10 pickups at the pull it yourself lots for $100 or less & put them behind 350's. I havn't shelled one yet.

I installed a t-5 with the internals from a monte-carlo and a summit clutch and pressure plate I think its 26 spline not sure but i used a rear end from an automatic 3.08 -10 bolt and between the 2 I can cruise 65 at about 2000 rpm even- the tricky part is the elec. conversion but well worth it- It was out of a 88 blazer v6 but it bolted right up with some enginuity

If you want the low 1st gear, look for a NV4500 5spd starting in '92 or '93 full size. Looks about the same size as SM420. I have a '93 with this trans. I haven't got it out on the road yet, but it seems to shift better than an SM420. I used it today to drag a '58 International 350 tractor w/loader & backhoe out of my yard to up by my garage. I put in 4LO & 1st gear and had no problems except for some ruts I dug. Keep looking on Craigslist and you can find whole trucks for $2K or less. That's with an TB injected 350.

Now when ya first look at that transamission for a swap it sure looks inviting. I wonder why you never hear anyone talking about using it for a swap into the AD trucks??? It appears that it was used in a lot of the light trucks, 2wd and 4wd from the 90's era. Seems more likely that you would find something 10 or 15 years old like this in the junk yard rather than the T5's dating back to the 80's.
I was just wondering if the front end is gonna bolt up to our early GM bell housing and fit the clutch and crank.
Waiting for the voice of experience on this one. Gotta be a bunch of the off road guys out there that have had exposure to this gearbox.
Novac has a nice little history on the trans on their site that I’m gonna take a look at after I post this. http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/nv4500.htm
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

'''''''I get T-5's from S-10 pickups at the pull it yourself lots for $100 or less & put them behind 350's. I havn't shelled one yet. '''''''

that's nice to know
i have also heard locally some rodders doing this and ... having NO problems

thx geo

The NV 4500 will not directly swap into the earlier truck. The bellhousing bolt pattern is different (wider) as well as having the larger bearing retainer. To my knowlege, no one makes a bellhousing with the correct bolt pattern and index bore to fit that trans to either the Chevrolet or GMC inline 6 engines. Advance Adapters does make them for the later 6 and V8 engines, but I don't think they have any with the bellhousing engine mounts used on the older trucks. If someone was to step up and manufacture such a bellhousing, though, that trans would be an exellent option, especially for the guys with 3/4 and 1 ton trucks that need the extra strength.

Ok Bill, gonna corner ya here with a few questions. So what your saying is my stock 1950, 3604 216 bell housing would have to be re-drilled and tapped to match the New Venture trans. and the bore would have to be opened up. That all sounds like it's not much of a problem for someone with access to a machine shop. Would you know about the spline length, pitch and whether the pilot would fit???
If I had one of these 4500's on the bench I could take some measurements but the only way I could do that now is to start searching the junk yards and shell out the cash.
It also looks like the shifter would only be back about 6" further than the stock SM420 also. If I could find one of these for between $100 and $200 I'd make the investment just to see how fesable it would be to adapt it. Most of the junk yards around here just give you a blank stare when you start talking drive line numbers. All they know is if you have a 93 and there is a 93 on the lot that things may interchange.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

NV4500 swap in Deco, AD, or Taskforce trucks is pretty much the same.

Start with 2WD dodge transmission from 94-97. This one will work with a mechanical speedometer gear.

Purchase adapter plate from Advance Adapter, or make your own. AA does not have a plate for pre 1947 trucks.

Turn down the indexing lip on the adapter plate from 5.125 inches to 4.686 inches.

Either turn down the bearing retainer snout from 1.43 inches to 1.373 inches, or simply get a chevy style throwout bearing for the 1.43 diameter bearing retainer snout. I chose to turn mine down on a lathe so I could use more of the stock clutch components. The 1.43 diameter throwout bearing is available at AA.

Find or make a pilot bushing out of bronze. Chevy and GMC require different bushings. The tip of the dodge transmission is .750 inches. Standard GM transmissions have a tip of .590 inches.

Since the NV4500 has a 10 spline 1 1/8 inch pilot shaft all the stock clutch components can be reused except the pilot bearing. Just a note, the dodge NV4500 has a pilot shaft that is 1 inch longer than the normal gm transmissions. Using the 1 inch thick adapter, the clutch lines up perfectly, no need to extend the splines. It is also important to note the the Dodge NV4500 is most commonly found in 3/4 and 1 ton diesel trucks, However the diesel version and or the v10 version will have a 10 spline 1 1/4 inch pilot shaft. To overcome this problem, the standard duty pilot shaft and bearing retainer may be swapped into the diesel transmission without getting into the transmission. The cost of those parts new is about $200.

Bolt adapter to bellhousing, bolt transmission to adapter. Make a new crossmember to support the tailhousing of the transmission. Have new driveshaft made. The NV4500 shifter will be aproximately 6 inches back from a stock 4 speed shifter.

Drive around with a smile on your face from ear to ear.

Now that's what I call an answer, thanks Big. Sounds like it went pretty smooth. What engine are you using in the '40?
I just looked through the Advance Adaptor site and there doesn’t appear to be any effort from them to make or adapt these to the early trucks.
I see you used a trans set up of a Dodge, was that just because they are more common and it happened to be the one that you were able to find? Do you know of any reason that one out of a Chevy or GMC wouldn't work out a little easier? For instance, with the pilot, shaft length or bearing retainer???
I have a 1995 GMC pick up small block w/5sp that I have been driving for a couple of years and love the transmission in that truck. I’ve never been under that truck to see what transmission was used but I’ve been told that it will not work with the original AD truck engines, that is the 216 or 235. Some thing about the bell housing???

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

The gm version uses an electronic speed sensor. One would have to convert the electronic signal to a mechanical one for the speedometer to work. The key to the swap is the length of the pilot shaft because the NV4500 needs its own bellhousing or adapter plate. Since there isn't a bellhousing available for the early sixes, you have to use the adapter plate and the dodge transmission with the longer pilot shaft.

If you were running a 250 or a 292 or one of the more common bent motors you could get a new bellhousing and run the gm transmission. You would have to reinvent the motor mount geometry, and also the clutch linkage. The new bellhousing would not mount to the crossmember like the original bellhousing.

The dodge version lets you use your original bellhousing and engine mounts. It also works really well with the stock clutch and pedal assembly. No need to put a clutch slave in the works. All around it is an easier swap. You also could run the stock clutch kit, with the exception of the pilot bushing.

I am running a 302 GMC 6 in my 1940 3/4 ton. The motor has been hotrodded with a Howard intake and 5 stromberg 97 carbs. I opted to use an IMCA modified F*rd 9 inch in the rear with 12 inch disc brakes. I was able to spec out the width of the axle, the size of the breaks, the lug pattern, and the gear ratio. My 9 inch is setup to be 6 lug on 5.5 bolt circle, which is the stock lug pattern for 1/2 tons and 3/4 tons up to 1945.

By the way, the early gm version has a lower 1st gear of 6.34:1 compared to the later gm and dodge ratio of 5.61:1. The early gm version is the most popular swap in jeeps and landcruisers, or any wheeler that wants that low crawling gear.

Ah yes, what a difference a day makes, I’ve learned a bunch since yesterday. You sound like you were paying attention in class Big. I talked with Steve at Advance Adaptors this morning for about a half hour and that's pretty close to the same story that he gave me. I'm going to keep my eyes open for my buddy who wants to make some changes, like a 235, transmission swap etc. I need to Zero in on exactly which years Dodge we should be looking for. If I understand this correctly, they started putting them in the Dodge in '95 and the ones in the gas burners is what we are looking for, that sound right? But up through what year would that be? I read that they used that trans up to 2005?

What Steve told me pretty much mirrors what you said. He said something about having to change the front shaft for aroung $100, the pilot bushing and use the 1" spacer/adaptor, about $250 and like you said, you can use your Chevy clutch and throw out brg. I'm wondering if he meant change the bearing retainer rather than the front shaft???

Also unless I misunderstood him, the early GM did have a mechanical speedometer. And that lower 1st gear doesn't bother me, anything is better than the 1st gear in the SM420. If I were to ever do a swap for my self it would be for the 5th gear overdrive that the 5speeds have.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Dodge 2WD 1994-1997 for the mechanical speedo. I have heard that later years will work, but haven't confirmed it. You could use either the diesel 2WD or the standard 2WD transmission, but there will be a little more work in using the diesel.

I am unaware of any GM NV4500 that could use a mechanical speedo pinion, including the early 92-93 units with the lower 1st gear.

I was noodling and found this thread. Very interesting. Don't see why a fella couldn't harvest and engine/trans combo from a 90's era truck and use the combo. The ratio in 5th is .73 or .74 And it has a pto port.

The earlier 88-91 trucks used a ZF 5-speed trans that works as well.

NOT TRUE

i have a hybrid and had it built professionally @ way under 1K. i have a stock seat frame and a f@^? 90's astro van third back seat. NOT butchered, a quick shift T5 short shifter of about 8'' 1st to 2nd.
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=DSC00367.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=9.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=2A-2.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=20A1.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=0449220-R1-032-14A.jpg

you do have to hump the cover plate a bit.

http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=584226-R1-048-22A.jpg

Hey George, meant to ask you, how do you “pull it yourself” for a T5 in a junk yard? You would have to have the truck/car up on jack stands or a hoist to get the transmission out and I just can’t picture me trying to wrestle a T5 out from under an S10 or Camaro in three or four feet of overgrowth with soft black dirt underneath the stands and my floor jack.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL