The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 235 engine starting???

I wanted to bounce off a few of you my efforts to get my 235 to start. its in a 56 3/4 ton. I've replaced the fuel pump, dist. points, roter, condenser, and plugs. I did what I knew how to do to get the timing etc. correct.
I gapped the plugs and points. I took off the valve cover and turned the fan until the front spring on top of the engine was high, I took out the first plug and I think I have the piston at the top.
I put the distributor clips at 3 and 9pm, or pointing parallel, the way the engine does front to back.
I tried to get the rotor to 1pm, but it is a little off. I elevated the temporoary gas tank and ran a line to it since my gas tank is presently out, and placed gas and starting fluid in the carb.
Using the foot starter, I try to turn it over. it has not run since 1991.it cranks and cranks and cranks, but doesnt turn over. I hear a popping sound down inside the carb, and at one point shot a kick-[censored] flame out of the carb about 2 feet high, but no start. oh I am running a wire from the plus side of the coil to the plus side of the battery, and a wire from the negative side of the coil to the little screw on the side of the distributor. ( no ignition) I turned the dist clockwise to try to get a start, and it doesnt make the carb sound, I turned the dist cap counterclockwise and it pops again in the carb, and spits a little puff of smoke. I am using the manual for plug wires etc, so I am comfortable they are correct. i am thinking timing is the issue, and it must be close, but no cigar. and ideas anyone? love to get it going before I have to cry wolf to the old man and have him come take care of it in 5 minutes, which makes my hours and hours of trying make me look like an idiot.

Watch the last pair of valves, not the front. The last valve at the rear is the exhaust. Turn the engine clockwise (looking at it from the front) until the #6 exhaust opens fully and starts to close. Then watch the next valve toward the front (#6 intake). When it begins to open, the #1 cylinder is at top dead center on the compression stroke. Time the distributor to fire the #1 plug at that point, and you should be timed close enough to start.
Jerry

so the rear ( or at the firewall) is the #1 cylinder? w/o being able to actually time the engine, where should the rotor be and the distributor clips be?

Hotrod, am I correct in assuming fire out of the carb means I am getting spark and gas? my wiring seem correct to you?

I hate to say it but it might be easier to call dad..
appears to be total out of time and unless you are some what familiar with how to do it............might be hard to under stand by explaining it here................but it could be in time and maybe the points are off........may have installed a bad condenser....one thing you can do is go back and make sure you havent crossed wire plug wires... to either the plugs or to the dist..

when you turn the motor by hand,both valves on no. 1 cylinder should be closed,with no. 1 piston coming up to the top on its compression stroke. that will be top dead center. the rotor should be pointing at the no. 1 tower on the cap...Mark

#1 is the front cylinder. #6 is the rear, and #1 and #6 have the piston at the top of the stroke at the same time. When #1 is on the compression stroke both valves are closed, and there's no good way to know when the piston is exactly at the top. However, when #6 is on top, the exhaust valve is in the process of closing, and the intake is opening. Get the #6 cylinder "rocking", (both valves moving in opposite directions) and #1 (the front one) is ready to fire. Get #6 rocking, and time the distributor so the rotor is pointing toward the wire going to the front cylinder.

If it backfires through the carburetor, yes, you've got fuel and fire, but it's firing when the intake valve is open. Once you get the distributor rotor pointed to the #1 plug wire, the rest of the wires need to follow in the proper firing order in a clockwise direction around the cap. The firing order is 1-5-3-6-2-4. It doesn't matter which wire you use as #1, as long as that plug gets fired at the proper time, and the rest of the cylinders follow in order.
Jerry

I think I did this exactly backwards. I did the turn the motor by hand trick and used positioning of the first 2 springs closest to the radiator as the valves for #1. so if I remove the valve cover and turn the motor so 62marks suggestions ask, will the rotor automatically be close to #1 spark plug wire on the dist. cap?
and if I luck out and it starts, what adjsutments need to be quickly made ot keep it runing? oh and I m not using a choke. is this all easier if I get it going? the cab is totally empty on this truck

What 62 Mark said. Also, you should have a ball on the flywheel to find TDC. If you both valves closed and the ball on the flywheel, you should have it. Then have your ignition on and turn the distributor body the opposite way of the rotor rotation. When you get a spark, this should get you real close.

Thanks Hotrod, I'll try getting #6 (firewall side) rocking and #1 should be good to go. I'll find #1 plug (engine front at radiator) and make sure my rotor is pointed to it , and change the plug wire so this is #1, then follow the firing order clockwise. so no adjsutments to rotor cap etc., jsut see where rotor ends up and move wires accordingly?
I wanted to ask, just so I learn, if I had #1 rocking is this why its firing when the intake valve is open?
Sorry for the extremely simple engine questions, I've never needed ot do anything to the motors of the trucks I've done, they always ran.

Crabby, I didnt see a ball on the firewall. dont have an ignition either.

get under the hood... look down by the starter, there's a hole in the bell-housing with a little pointer sticking down (it points towards the ground).... rotate the engine by hand while shining a flash light so you can see the flywheel spin through that opening in the bell-housing. You're looking for a "ball" in the forward facing surface of the flywheel. when you find that, grab your white-out and paint that sucker white!!!! rotate the engine again until you feel the resisitance of the compression stroke... when you do and that white ball in the flywheel comes around and lines up with the pointer in the bell-housing then you know that you are at TDC- rotate your distributor until the points just crack and you should at least be able to get the sucker started. From there on out, you can do it by ear....

Thanks Joker. I will look again. I have been all over down there trying to find it.

how well I know that................I did not what an enclosed drive shaft was till I lost my u joints in mine.. I found out real fast............

good luck my friend, I know little about these trucks, just enough to be dangerous....Lincoln and the rest know a lot more then I do..

Thanks. I plan to print out every one of these threads and crawl under that darn truck tomorrow and give it a shot.... oh its 19 degrees here.

If #1 is rocking, both valves are slightly open. That's the beginning of the intake stroke. If the plug fires then, whatever fuel is in the cylinder fires, but the pressure escapes out the intake manifold, the exhaust manifold, or both. The plug is supposed to fire one complete turn later, after the cylinder fills with mixture, and it gets compressed by the piston moving to the top with both valves closed. Now, the burning fuel can push the piston down to the bottom, and the power it produces goes through the clutch, the transmission, and on to the wheels. The burned gas gets pushed out as the piston comes back to the top with the exhaust valve open. It takes two turns of the crankshaft (4 strokes) to get the whole sequence completed.

The #6 cylinder is doing the same thing as #1, but it's one full turn out of phase. When #1 is on top with both valves closed, ready to fire the spark plug, #6 is coming to the top of its stroke on exhaust. The exhaust valve is closing, and the intake is beginning to open. By watching the #6 valves, I know that both pistons are on top, and I can time the distributor to fire #1. It's a quick, simple way to estimate where the pistons are, and which cylinder needs the spark. You also don't have to mess with that hard-to-see ball on the flywheel, which can't tell you which cylinder needs to fire, anyhow.
Jerry

Hotrod, joker...
I spent the whole day in the garage using all your advise trying to get the ole 235 fired up. its gets sooooo close but no cigar.

I literally have the dist set to severly retard and lob then with an 1/8 inch turn of the dist, the motor will speed up to where it almost starts. the motor did actually start once with just the gas in the carb, and ran for about 15 seconds, then it ran out of gas.I hooked up the gas can to it and never would start again.and this was with no changes.

I noticed a few things that I dont think are promising.
1. very low compression in all cylinders but one.found this by taking out plug and hearing the puff sound.cant feel or hear sound out of the rest of the cylinders.
2. I am thinking no adjsutments can be made to distributor since the smallest turn makes such a change.seems right in there.
3. cant get fuel pump to work. took off and made sure it was seated right, but still no gas. still figuring this one out. its installed in correctly,and I noticed even when I pump the lever in my hand it doesnt pass gas out the discharge.I ended up using an elevated can straight into the carb.
4. the coil seems to get really hot??
5. I am running a wire from positive coil to battery positive, and negative coil to distrb screw. i am thinking this is correct.
so if compression is low, could / would motor not have enough umph to kick over? and if it is shot, is it repairable
so gave up for today so I can give this some thought.

Hey 56 call your dad out.It will give you a chance to spend some time with him, and he might enjoy teachin you about the old stuff.If he starts to get high and mighty tell him to knock it off and enjoy playin with the old toys and teachin you some tricks.

Dad was here all day. I was relegated to handing him tools, making sodas and hearing how my generation aint worth a hoot.

56,

Feel your pain. If your dad was there all day, and the truck STILL ain't runnin', how's your generation any worse than his?!!!

Glad you're fightin' the good fight. Keep it up and don't lose faith - when you get 'er started, you'll be on top of the world!!! AND, (don't know how old you aren't), I'm guessing you already know 5 times as much about this old iron than ANY of your compatriots, who probably don't know anything about old OR new engines!
Stick with it . . . when the nickel finally drops on understanding how these engines work, you'll own it.

-Michael

Your dad can come to my place and hand me some tools....lol

Thanks for the help all of you. guess I am left wondering if we actually have it in tune and the lack of compression in 5 of the cylinders is making it not start, or if I do not have it in tune yet. I'm not ready to give up yet!!
someone told me its possible the rings are stuck and thats why it wont start. it sat for 17 years. guess that means motor work

Have you squirted a couple shots of oil in the spark plug holes as you've rolled it over yet? Anything sat that long, OR been rolled over too much with gas going in & washing down the cylinder walls WILL be low on compression.
Doug

no I have not squirted oil in the spark plug holes. one puzzling thing about this is it actually fired up once and ran about 15 seconds. it ran outof the gas it had in the carb. when it died, I gave it more gas, and it wouldnt run anymore. guess I was thinking if the engine was shot and would not start due to low compression, etc. how did it start once.

How did it start once - Good question.... While you are oiling down those cyl. walls, get your compression gage screwed in there & do a comp. test. Be sure there is some valve lash so they can close & seal properly. Just for openers, you can back off all the adjusters one turn.
Doug

got a suggestion on what type of oil to use? guess I was thinking and again I am not an engive guy, that if it was seized, or rusted, or whatever is making the compression suck, would not allow it to ever start. so how did it start and turn over once? it cranks likes theres no tomorrow, but only one start

I usually use 30 wt., but that's just 'cause that's what I keep in my squirt can. If you've been cranking it this long, & haven't wore out a starter or batt. yet, it must be low on comp.
Doug

I'll give it a try. didnt wear out the starter, killed the battery though.

56,

Where in town are you? I'm not a master mechanic (ok . . . I couldn't even play one on tv . . . ) but I'll help if I can. I'm in Clayton/Brentwood area. Send me a PM (Private Message) and let's see how close we are - maybe I can help.

-Michael

I just recently went through exactly the same thing with my 235 although it had only been about a year since it was started. Mine has a 12 volt ignition system in it. Remember, if you have a 12 volt system you need a ballast resistor to drop some of the voltage before it gets to the coil, or the coil will get hot. Other than that, starting it with a 12 volt battery doesn't hurt anything as long as you don't hook anything else up. You'll have to change bulbs, etc. to 12 volt or they will burn out. Most of the aftermarket parts houses have voltage reducers pretty cheap.

I didn't rotate the distributor or replace points, etc. before I tried to start, and was lucky enough so that the point gap and timing must be pretty close. It had a fuel pump on it, but I used an elevated lawnmower gas tank hooked to the carb because I didn't know how bad the gas in the tank was. I had problems getting it to fire and found out that there is a washer inside the tank cap with an orifice hole in it to keep the lawnmower from sucking too much fuel, I guess. Needless to say, it wouldn't flow enough gas to start until I took out the washer.

It still took numerous tries before I got it to run for a few seconds. Then it wouldn't start again. I put a hand pump bulb in my fuel line and pumped until I got resistance (like the needle valve had closed) and tried again. It started up but only ran for a few seconds again. I got it to run several times using that method, but the clear fuel filter I was using never got very full.

So I flushed the fuel tank and hooked the fuel pump back up to the carburetor. No fuel flow. The diaphragm must have deteriorated. I replaced the pump with one from Brother's, because my flaps kept giving me ones that didn't fit.

So then I had nice clean fuel to the carburetor, and the engine would run, but the idle was really high and it was running rich even after rebuilding the carb. I'm pretty sure that the fuel pump is putting out too much pressure and forcing the the needle valve off the seat, flooding the carburetor. Rochester B's like 3.5 psi. I got a pressure regulator, but haven't installed it yet.

Basically, if you got it to run for a few seconds, there's nothing major wrong with the engine. Compression may be low. but, if you squirt oil into the cylinders it may come up. Mine sure did. If your fuel pump is actually working, although it doesn't sound like it is, you may be flooding your engine. Check for a strong smell of fuel around the carb, or fuel coming out of the throttle shaft end holes in the carb body.

It sounds like your ignition is close enough. So pat yourself on the back. The remaining problem is probably in the fuel system, unless you didn't lubricate the distributor cam. That will wear out the rubbing block pretty quickly.

'56 stepside

Distributor & timing - Your getting great info on this, just make sure you have the plug wires on the correct cylinders.

Compression test - if the readings differ widely from cylinder to cylinder, the low compression is likely by the valves. Make sure the rockers have clearance. Also, the valves might be sticking open or may be burned or not seating correctly. If you have sticking valves, you will get fire back through the carb while the engine is running.

Timing mark (ball) on flywheel - I never could find mine until I cleaned the flywheel (through the viewing hole) with a rag and solvent. There it was looking right back at me.

Starting & Running - an old carb is often so gummed up that you can't keep the engine running. My experience is: if you can start it with "starting fluid" and keep it running by give it a shot every 5 or 10 seconds, the carb likely needs a thorough cleaning and rebuild.

Don

Be careful with the starting fluid. It will quickly strip all of the oil off the cylinder walls causing rapid wear.

Hey all the "plan" now is back to square one and make sure I didnt miss anything. I am soaking everything in oil right now, I am going to re-time it, I have a wire from the plus on the coil to the plus on the battery, and a wire to the negative on the coil to the bolt on the outside of the distributor, I am planning to use very small amounts of gas in a squirt bottle into the carb. Did I miss anything?

Fetcher,

I woke up this morning thinking about this.

I know people that have seriously burned there arms, hands and face. You have a couple of hazardous situations you are working with. Be very cautious, keep a fire extinguisher and damp bath towel at arms reach. Do not look into the carb while starting or running the engine and keep your hands dry of gasoline. An engine that is not running correctly can throw gasoline and flames out of the carb without warning. Also, the ignition system can throw arcs and quickly ignite any nearby gasoline spill. Not good. I don't want to be preachy but this is hazardous work.

I started an engine fire last year on my '54. Had the fuel line to the carb disconnected, forgot and cranked the engine with the ignition on. Wow! Squirting gasoline, ignition, blast-off, lots of flames. I had a damp towel nearby and quickly smothered the fire. Had some burned wiring and scared the heck out of myself. Fortunately I didn't get any burns.

I have used the can/gravity feed for gasoline to the carb before also. However if the float/needle sticks open, the contents of the can will drain into the carb and overflow into and onto the engine. It's not a good idea to have more than a few ounces in the can. Fire hazard here also.

Connect the coil wire to the battery only when you are trying to start the engine. If the points are closed and the engine is still, you will pull a lot of current through the coil, possibly damaging the coil and/or burning the points.

54

I think I lost a post somewhere. I started thinking about the gravity fuel systems we use and finally did the calculations.

On my 3800, if I set the gravity feed tank on the roof of the cab, that gives about 1.04 psig at the carburetor(theoretically). To get 3.5 psig, the tank would have to be more than 11 feet above the carburetor.

I wonder how often the low pressure at the carburetor keeps the flow so low that the float bowl can't stay full?

Hi, I gotta tell You when trying to get a motor to start the best thing to do is do one thing at a time, work on getting the gas to flow , when that is working move to the next thing, easy way to find TDC on #1 plug is remove plug put finger over hole turn motor over by hand You will feel the air push on Your finger than look down at the TDC mark on flywheel go slow it will be very close . that is TDC on #1 cly. point #1 plug wirer and rotor so they line up and You will close motor should start and run . It will be a less comelicated if You look at it as one thing at a time.I hope this helps ,Pete