The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Att: All Stovebolters..E10 Problems

It was suggested that I share some of the information I've gathered during the past few months when our local fuel supplies all switched to E10 Blended fuel.

It turns out that the E10 blended fuel, which was mandated to be in all the Florida gas stations by 2009 was eating up the "fuel rated" rubber lines we'd been using for years.

After 5000 miles on my 54-235 truck I started having some issues with my idle and noted a dramatic drop in my fuel mileage. An adjustment (richen) to the idle fuel mix corrected the popping and crackling during deceleration. Easy fix!

The second issue was a fuel leak between the fuel tank pickup and the frame mounted fuel line. Loose clamp, a couple turns and it was corrected....but the Goodyear Fuel rated line was spongy. But it was fuel rated so no big deal!!! Or so I thought!!!

Later in the day, at a show, we noted my buddies 32-5 window street rod was also smelling like fuel and a quick inspection showed his "Fuel rated" rubber lines were split open like a clamshell. One slight tug and it split wide open and we had to make some quick emergency repairs. Checking several other older vehicles showed the same splits in a number of the cars. All that was needed would be a good solid jar and fuel would be dumped. A real pain for those guys who had to drop their tanks to upgrade their lines. But a whole lot better than watching their cars burn.

Checking Google confirmed that there were a myriad of woes connected with the ethanol based fuels from deteriorating marine tanks, to loss of mileage, clogged fuel filters, damaged carb guts, "phase separation", and of course the 700+ vechiles that had burned. It appeared that older carbed engines, both marine and road, were subject to some rather disturbing issuses.

Google confirmed the 2-3 month shelf life of the E10 fuels and pointed out the need for upgrading all conventional "Fuel rated" rubber lines to "Ethanol Rated" lines which have a blue liner. The fact remains that conventional rubber fuel lines WILL deteriorate and NEED to be upgraded to the pricey "Ethanol rated" fuel lines before they split and dump fuel. Supposedly, all fuel pumps and carb kits since 1985 were mandated to be upgraded to E10 standards but with the influx of imported replacement parts...who knows for sure.

Toss in the fact that E10 will suck in moisture and scour the inside of a cruddy fuel tank, clogging the filters, and it looks like "progress" is creating additional issues for us who cherish the old iron. Having gone through these issues and having had to deal with them has prompted me to share this information. I encourage you to spend some time checking out "E10 Problems" before someone winds up loosing their truck to an engine fire.

Dave

Thanks for the post Dave. This comes just in time for me. I will be putting my motor in next month and I am going to replace all the fuel lines when I do the motor. Now I will know what to look for when I buy the fuel lines.

That's very interesting information Dave. I remember reading here how it effects some carb gaskets, but your's is the first I've read about the fuel lines deterioration.

hmmm - never heard of the blue lined tube ... also haven't had any issues using gasohol in my 283, since rebuilt about 15 years ago - in fact we've had E10 here for over 20 years - I've always used it with no ill effects, and always heard that 10% isn't enough to cause problems .... might have more to do with low quality parts?

concerning the short "self life", I've been using the snowblower the past week, running fine on the 1/2 tank of gas left from last January ... and in a very humid climate

Bill

it messed up an almost new dual action fuel pump and almost stranded me about 20 miles from home. it ate the diaphragm. i have an electric fuel pump as a back up. i will check the fuel lines, thanks.

Be careful with the electric fuel pump,
My boss has a VW Bus with a carburator and electric fuel pump.
He backed the bus out of his garage one day, Parked it in the driveway and let it run while he went to go pick up his newspaper off the yard.
As he was walking back, the engine quit, then the engine compartment burst into flames. he quickly ran and got a fire extinguisher, and put the fire out. Then it cought fire again!
The key was still on from when it was running, which was powering up the fuel pump, pouring fuel on the hot engine.
Luckily he was able to save the bus.
The cause of the fire was due to a fuel line deteriorated from the inside from the Ethanol gas.
Now he has the new fuel lines and a mechanical fuel pump back on.

Been running nothing but E-10 in mine, have had no issues at all with it.

My experience has been that you lose easily. the 10% in mileage and power loss. I would just as soon the only gave me 9 tenths of a gallon for the gallon price. seems to be the same effect. Truthfully, there was a huge rush as stations put up banners stating that they had only 100% gas and vowed to keep buying it as long as it was available. Soon, the ethanol stations were empty and now I think you would be hard pressed to find a station in town selling the hybrid fuel mix. I don't fully understand the push. It is supposed to take a tremendous amount of water to manufacture and as I have been told, uses more energy to make than is saved by using it.

the electric fuel pump has a manual switch only on if needed. i work at auto zone part time and looked at their hoses yesterday and they have a hose with a blue-green liner designated fuel injector hose is this what you are talking about??????????

Idaho has been selling E-10 for years and I have 269,000 miles on a 91 S10 with no problems. When we had stations selling MTBE blend fuels I noticed no difference in fuel economy as the stations here blended the E-10 to have the same octane as the regular gas.
I will say that when the military switched from diesel fuel to JP-8 in all of their vehicles we found that switching back and forth caused the fuel filters to break down in just 1 or 2 tanks of fuel. It taught me to look closely at what you need to do to a vehicle to safely switch from 1 fuel to another.
As for the cost of producing ethanol, corn is not a good raw material to use for it. Using switchgrass or sugarcane produces much more yield at a lower cost per gallon.

If deteriorating fuel lines are a concern; there are only two areas where flex is needed, tank to frame and frame to pump. I use stainless braided in those sections.

Just to add a bit of information based on some observations of my own setup. I, along with several of my car-friends were noting some issues which mimicked "vapor lock" after shutting down an engine which was up to operating temperature. Upon cranking the engine, the fuel pressure would remain at 0 psi at the carbs until the engine drained the carb fuel bowls and the engine would shut down. Using an infrared thermometer it indicated that after shutting down the hot engine, the temperature increase in the line, where it curves around the front of the aluminum valve cover . I understand that this "heat soak" is a normal phenomen in any internal combustion water cooled engine. However, with the "phase separation" point of ethanol at about 128 degrees I noted that the steel line, directly above the front corner of the Fenton headers would reach 150 degrees. I fabricated an aluminum heat shield (deflector) which went between the exhaust manifold and the glass bowl fuel filter which was inline just before the carbs. This kept the heat down to 119-120 degrees at the filter. However, the 2" section of line in front of it would still reach 150 and fuel pressure remain at "0."

At this point I ran up the engine temp to normal operating, shut the engine down (with the hood closed) gave it 15 minutes, cranked the engine with "0" fuel pressure showing and just as the engine started to run out of gas and stumble....applied a wet rag to the little 2" curved section of steel line directly above the area where the header mates to the head. Immediately, fuel pressure returned to the normal 4 psi (regulated) and the engine operated normally.

Obviously, the line needed some INSULATION, which totally corrected the situation. So what did I learn from this little issue? First of all, the line is routed just like any stock setup...so moving it really wouldn't solve the problem. The key is to INSULATE it and if by chance you are having some issues after parking your truck for 20 minutes and having it stall, you would be well advised to add a section of ss shielded, ethanol rated line to correct this issue or at least add an insulating wrap. Another option is to open your hood and let the heat out. Modern vehicles with a recirculating fuel system use fresh fuel moving through the lines to eliminate the potential problem. BTW....after the first issue with loss of fuel pressure, I converted to an electric pump mounted on the frame about 8" from and below the fuel tank. The same issue was noted with the electric pump which made no difference in correcting the issue and I have subsequently switched back to the mechanical pump.

Dave

You want fuel hose that's labeled as compatable with all fuels. This is the fuel hose that's used for fuel injection motors. It's also labeled as SAE30R9. The old type fuel hose is SAE30R7. The E-10 fuel will eat up that R7 hose in 2-3 yrs, as I've personally experienced. The E-10 fuel also destroyed the gasket between the upper and lower sections of my fuel pump on a small block Chevy. E-10 fuel will rust your old steel gas tank out because it absorbs water. The water settles to the bottom, and then you get pin holes in the gas tank.

That's what the switchgrass growers want people to think. They don't mention that switchgrass has to have extra steps to break down the cellulose before it can be processed to manufacture ethanol. Corn doesn't require those steps. And even at that, you can use any high sugar yeild crop to make it, apples, peaches, grapes, corn, wheat, rice, just stay away from bananas.
BTW, corn used for ethanol production is not the same corn used for human consumption. It's primarily feed stock for cattle. The process used to make ethanol actualy makes the end leftovers better livestock feed.

I've been running e10 for as long as I can remember, never had any trouble. My father, a farm machinery mechanic, did experience alot tune ups after the farmers started switching to e10 gasoline, but I'm sure most of the 20-30 year old grain trucks needed it anyhow. As far as drawing moisture, anything whether it is diesel, gas, or ethanol will draw moisture after it sits for awhile. Just some food for thought, I use to haul fuel to gas stations and none of my stations with e10 ever had any water or moisture problems. The only ones with moistue and water problems were the ones with straight product.

Ethanol actually absorbs the moisture out fo the gas and blends with it, there is no "settling" or "separation" of the water. Ever wonder what's in the red Heet bottles? Ehtanol. On the other hand, methanol, while it does absorb the water, will separate out and cause "water slugs" in the line. But that is an entirely different type of alcohol than ethanol.

''AHHHHHH the conspiracy theorasts are at work again... i see''

Well living in sunny calif and knowing just how much I trust my gov't I firmly believe that the new formulated gas we have had for almost a couple decades or so is mixed with an additive that destorys the intregirty of some compounds found in hoses. I own a 356 sports car and have (now HAD) original german rubber fuel lines for years. very good quality stuff. well one day i rode 60 mi w/o any issues, stopped the car for 10min, then drove some more. That is when the split occured (just like that) engine FIRE. I dalways carry a halon, but it was a $4000.00 claim. to fix and the fire was maybe 30seconds.

GO BUY AND ONLY USE FUEL INJECTED HOSE. $6-8.00/foot it's pretty thick stuff.

for you guys who have modern vehicles don't have to worry any (much) because this doesn't affect you .... the theory is 'they (?????)' wish to eliminate older autos from the roads to eliminate smog, gas guzzlers, wrecks etc. off our highways. most newer autos use fuel injection systems, so we need to use their high pressure hoses. 'they' don't say they have done any of this, complete deniability.

but folks have stories just like this and i heard about 6 so far. all true. me toooooo.

put your gas in a bowl and let it sit out for a week. a lot of whit powder flake

ethonal is A BIG JOKE MORE WASTED TAX $$$$$$$$$

heet contains isopoprol alcohol, (rubbing alcohol) which will absorb water and keep in suspension.

For those of us old enough to remember, after the Arab Oil Embargo of the 70's one chain of gas stations (Fina?) actually began selling what we now call E10, but back then it was called "gasahol".

At that time I had just bought a new Ford Festiva (first year for them) and I was getting 30 mpg. I switched to gasahol and got 27 mpg, a 10% drop in gas milage.

That's all the evidence I needed to know it's a boondoggle. Mixing alcohol with gasoline is good for politicians, grain farmers and people who like to think they're doing to save the planet.

One need look no farther than the recent economic collapse, the government's response, and E10 to realize that we no longer live in a world based on reality.

Actually Heet is Isopropal Alcohol or a blend of Methanol.

That would be the Heet in the yellow bottle. The red bottle is ethanol based.

So we've had a chance to check out E10...hear a few horror stories and become aware of some of the issues created by this "CHANGE" that has been pushed onto us by the politicos and energy folks. So what do we do to keep our trucks running? Especially, those folks who drive on the weekends or when the weather and busy schedules permit.

With a stated shelf life of 2-3 months maybe we ought to be checking out some other options. As I understand it, AViation gas will remain stable in a fuel tank for extended periods of time. No need to add the expensive "stabilizers" or to worry about our carbs gumming up when the fuel dries out.

Fortunately, here in C. Florida we have a very active airboat population and many of our little quickie-Mart gas station/donut shops are now pumping AV gas. Sure, it's a bit more expensive than the bleanded stuff....about $2.50/gal. but in the long run, for those who aren't running through a tank every week it may be money in the bank. Having to spend time/money replacing filters/lines/cleaning carbs might make it a more viable alternative fuel. Most smaller airports have the stuff and if you're in the "limited" operation group, it may be just the ticket.

Afterall, it wasn't that long ago we were shelling out $3.95/gallon for the stuff that was causing a variety of issues. Something to think about!!

Dave

Just FYI...

There is a website called www.pure-gas.org and they have a state by state breakdown of where to buy ethanol free gas. If you find one in your area you can submit it to them, and they will add it to the list once they verify it. There are 90+ stations in Texas that are ethanol free. And over 2800 nation wide according to the site.

So it's out there!

About that electric fuel pump fire, I've been told that the fuel pump should only be powered through an oil pressure switch; that way, if the engine dies for any reason, fuel will stop flowing.
Could save somebody from a fire!

Good tip 40casey! I'm a supporter of mechanical pumps for that very reason. I torched a 1970 Barracuda with the only electric pump I ever tried.

Here is a circut using a VW CIS fuel pump relay. If the distrubitor stops turning the power is dropped in 0.5 seconds.

http://www.ratwell.com/mirror/sfraser/relay.html