The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop T5 Hybrid

is it possible to change output shafts between various model T5 gearboxes?

I am looking to put earlier (1985ish) T5 components (extension housing, shifter components) into a 2004 model T5. As the later model boxes have an extra 3" in the extension housing which moves the shifter back 3". This is too far back for the application. From all the images I have seen it appears that once the splines end the diameter of the shaft is reduced so I am unable to simply shorten the shaft and extend the splines. My new plan is to swap the shafts over and put the gearing from the 04 T5 onto the earlier output shaft. I don't have model numbers in front of me right now.

I am curious myself. Best of luck with it. Bump

i believe so
i have a hybrid
see inliners international http://www.inliners.org/ tech section .. T5 page
or ask a tranny guy

The T5 page - by Jack Halton and John Martin

These pages are an attempt to provide information on the popular Borg Warner T5 transmissions. We'll add information as we get it. Please let us know (E-mail webmaster) if you notice any mistakes as this is very much a work in progress!

These gearboxes are getting a lot of attention and interest because

A) They all include an overdrive 5th gear

B) They use the standard GM bell housing bolt pattern.

The first feature means that the T5 can provide a solution for the miserable 3.90 and 4.11 gearing used on most early GM pickups. T5's come in two different bell housing bolt patterns - GM and Ford. The Ford pattern was also used on AMC and Nissan. Many internal parts are interchangeable, but there are two basic "grades" of T5 : World Class (WC) and Non World Class (NWC). WC is a later version with many upgrades for smoother operation and improved reliability.

There are several T5 applications to consider. Those used in the GM S-10 pickups from 1983 to 1987 are good candidates, but do require some modification to work with the earlier clutch and flywheel packages. For an excellent report on the details of this swap, see Grant Galbraith's article at Stovebolt.com. Also check out Robert French's Solution using the Vega clutch hub.

Here is some information you can use to identify which S10 T5 is right for your truck. These entries were taken from a variety of sources. Some were superceded by later numbers. The 4X4 variants are highlighted in green as they can be easily identified by the transfer case instead of the tailshaft, although internal parts of the tranny are the same.

The BW model number can usually be found on a bar code tag somewhere on the main body of the transmission.

These are all NWC transmissions.

BW Model
Original application
Engine
1st gear
2nd gear
3rd Gear
4th gear
5th gear

lots of detail missing so look at inliners page

So, which tranny is right for you? That depends. The major differences are in the ratio spacing and first/OD ratios. The original truck 3-speed had a 1st gear ratio of around 3:1 and the 4-speeds (Granny gear) were about 7:1. So if you are replacing a 4-speed, ANYTHING would be an improvement. Some users have reported that the 4.03 1st gear models are too low for normal street use with a 235. If you haul a heavy load or do any towing, you may need the 4.03 1st. But tire size matters too. Most of the S10 trucks used relatively small tires, so changing to a taller (larger diameter) tire will offset this somewhat. A taller tire will result in a higher (lower numerically) effective ratio in all 5 forward speeds. The lower 5th speed ratios will give you higher, quieter top gear cruising speed due to lower engine RPM.

Another T5 option is the Camaro / Firebird "F-body" transmissions. These are desirable for the better ratio spacing, higher first gear and ease of adapting to the early bell housing and clutch, but the shifter location is all wrong for an old pickup. Click on the link below for more info on the F-body T5.

CAMARO T5 Hybrid The T-5 Tranny - The easy way

Here's how I put together a T5 transmission for my '51 GMC with no machine work and no worries about clutch disc / spline matching. I started with a '84 F-body (Camaro / Firebird) 5-speed. Later versions had electronic speedometer drive, which can be used but require a $300 adapter to work with a mechanical speedometer. The tranny I used was probably for a car equipped with a V6. It has the following ratios:

1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
2.95 1.94 1.34 1.00 .73

These ratios are very nice for street use with a rear axle ratio of 3.90 or 4.11. They are an improvement on the S10 version of the T5, some of which had a 4.03 first gear and .85 overdrive in fifth gear. F-body cars with the above ratios came with a 3.45 rear axle. There is another version for 305 V8 engine cars which has the same ratios except for a .63 5th gear. The V8's used a 3.08 rear.

This T5 has an input shaft and bellhousing bolt pattern which are correct for any early truck (mine is a '51 GMC). The only difference is that the holes to mount the trans to the bellhousing need to be enlaged to 1/2" . The input shaft has 26 splines which is a common count for most any late GM clutch disc. So far so good. The major problem is location of the shifter. F-body cars all have bucket seats and the shifter is located at the rear of the tailshaft housing. If your old truck has bucket seats, it will probably work as is, but I like to use that space for miscellaneous junk in a little console with a cupholder. Sooo...

I was fortunate to find an S10 T5 that was sold as "parts only". On teardown, it had bad synchros and pieces of metal throughout, so it was truly good for parts only. The part I was after was the tailshaft housing. The S10 has a shifter location suited for a truck - about in the center of the floor. And T5's being designed for maximum parts interchange, the tailshaft housings are interchangeable. This can be done with NO disassembly other than removing the tailshafts and side cover/shift fork/rail assemblies - you don't have to get into the transmission itself. So - voila! Swap the tailshaft housings and other parts mentioned and we're good to go!

Photo 1

Pictured above are the side covers, shift forks, and shifter rail from the Camaro (L) and S10 transmissions. These have to be swapped along with the tailshaft housings. Use the shift forks that show the least wear.



photo 2

Whoops....major problem here. The speedometer drive gear is in a different location. On the S10 trans, it's a bit forward of the shifter housing. On the Camaro trans it's well forward. I've heard that some mainshafts had both locations machined, but on mine, no such luck. So, it's gotta move if I want to use the speedometer. "Gee officer, I really don't know how fast I was going - you see, I just put two transmissions together and now my speedometer don't work"....Yeah, right!

photo 4



So here's what I did. Notice the shiny spot in the picture above? that's where the speedo gear was in the Camaro tranny. There is a little hole drilled in that area, for the retaining clip that holds the gear in place. I carefully measured the S10 shaft for the location of that hole and drilled one the same size, in the Camaro shaft. What's not apparent in the picture is that the shiny area is actually a slightly larger diameter than the rest of the shaft. When you slide the gear over this area, its a fairly tight fit and the little retaining clip is held tightly in place. I my case the difference in diameter was .055". So I made a shim out of .026" stock (remember you have to split the difference) which wraps around the shaft to make it the proper diameter. It doesn't go all the way around, just enough to make the gear a tight fit. I epoxied this shim onto the shaft (using a couple of hose clamps to hold it in place overnight) and tapped the gear and clip into place.

Some background on the T5...originally produced by Borg Warner Gear Division, all T5's are now known as "Tremec" and are manufactured by Transmission Technologies Corp. An excellent repair / disassembly manual is available for the T5 at minimal cost by calling (800) 401-9866. Here is a page from that manual:



Not shown in the above diagram is the side cover and shift fork assembly (photo 1). You will have to use the entire thing from the S10 box, because the shifter shaft (23) must be the correct length for the S10 tailhousing.

Here's an "Aw, S**t !" to avoid. Removal of the tailshaft extension requires driving a roll pin out of the shifter shaft, into the offset lever (14 on diagram). There is a drilled passageway there to hold it. As soon as you get the tailshaft off, drive this pin all the way out and put it aside where it won't get lost. It's all to easy to re-install the offset lever with the pin still in there...and you won't realize it's there until you try to drive in a new one. Of course, this will be AFTER you have re-installed the tail housing with gasket cement, torqued the bolts, etc, at which point you must remove everything and do it all over again.

Jack Halton / Inliners International May 2001

Ok now carolines truck, i have to say that is a lot of info.. and i did not read it all in detail yet, just a quick skim, so i appologize if i am repeating anything thats in what you've posted, but did a version of the T5 not make its way to becoming a 6speed for the 1st gen vipers? i believe if you get the 6sp from the viper and swap the bell housing then you have a T6. definitely something I'd have to check on but i believe that was what was in a 'friend''s 94 cobra. this cobra had well over 30k into it and to remember even half of what went into it would be a miracle so i may have confused something and be mistaken but i thought the T5 was also used in those years mustangs, and he did have a viper trans with a bell swap or maybe it was just a bell adapter.

I will be finding out the hard way soon enough but the information presented seems to suggest that I will be able to do it.

And just how many Vipers have we seen on the scrap heap lately??
I'll bet those are about a thousand times more rare than the rare Eaton 4.10 gear from a 3/4 ton that I've been searchin' for, going on a couple of years now.
That's an interesting read Jim, thanks. I'll have to zip over to the Inliners and see if there is more on it. I'm always interested in the possabilities for nice clean mods for the AD, even though I'm keeping mine stock looking top to bottom I have friends that do want to upgrade.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Well i bet you could source one. I've found calling the parts department at the local dodge dealership to be quite easy. I am sure there has been a warranty or replacement job to where you could get a rebuilt used unit or perhaps the local transmission shop may know something.. or just buy a new one if you value that sixth gear enough to make it worth it.

ok I've done a little research and it is the T56 and can be found in more than just the viper, yet the viper version of the unit is of course the strongest version. and yes there are bell housing conversion kits for it. now if it is the same length i do not know but if it is being swapped into mustangs to be a direct replacement of the T5 then there is either a kit to make up for or no difference in shifter location.

Here is a good bit of info about the T5 vs T56

see
https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread...56&topic=0&Search=true#Post50878

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread...56&topic=0&Search=true#Post81038

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread...56&topic=0&Search=true#Post42447

I'm not saying that the t56 can't be made to fit one of our trucks. It probably would not be to difficult in a truck that is using bucket seats. However it is not a popular swap in trucks using a bench seat because as noted the shifter location is way further back than the stock 4 speeds. I believe the shifter is about 18 and 1/2 inches further back. For prewar trucks the gas tank would also have to be relocated as the shifter would be coming up in the middle of the tank. But for most AD and Task Force trucks (47-54 and 55-59) the major hurdle would be repacing the bench seat with suitable buckets. The T56 was also used in Camaros, so you may be able to grab a chevy bent motor, bellhousing, and transmission, and adapt it to your streetrod.

I am not a big fan of the T5 as I don't believe it is strong enough for a hot rodded truck, but it is a fairly ez swap in a stock 6 cylinder truck and seems to match up well to the power curve of a 235. If you are going BIG with your truck you should find a transmission to match. The camaro T56 should do pretty well with up to about 350 HP and 350 lbs of torque.

I wouldn't build a 700 HP motor and expect one of those transmissions to live to long behind it.

John

Hello, everybody! Maybe I can provide a little input here. I've got a '64 shortbed Fleetside I'm putting a 350 and a T-56 in. The problem is - buckets are mandatory, as the shifter will be coming up right about 6" back into the middle of the bench seat.

The T-56 is rated at 450 ft-lbs of torque, and is standard OEM issue in Vipers, Cobra Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, GTOs, and Corvettes. If you get one out of a Chevy, it will bolt right up to a small-block. However, it takes a hydraulic clutch in the cars, so you have to convert the bell housing if you want to use a mechanical clutch. I haven't gotten far enough into assembling mine yet to figure out if I have room to run the hydraulic Camaro bell housing , because of the slave cylinder location, or if I'll have to change the bell housing. I'm told the T-56 will bolt up to a standard GM bell housing, but I haven't tried that yet, either. I'll keep y'all informed.

I used a TKO 600 in a 34 Ford cabriolet and it had three positions for the shifter. With the shifter in the front most position it clears a bench seat and the cab space in a 34 is tiny. I think (but not sure) that both these trans are by Tremec so you might check to see if different shifter locations were offered. I also had to go to a hydraulic throw out bearing because with the "X" frame there was no room for a slave cylinder.

Evan, thanks for the input. Another guy suggested it would be a good idea to have this T-56 checked out anyhow, and he's right - I sure don't want to have to pull it back out because there is a bad bearing or something! - so I'll check with the tranny guys about shifter options. Looking at the tranny, I sure didn't see any, but I've been wrong before! LOL

Bill

Here is what I know.

The T3550, TKO500 and TKO600 are all 5-speed transmissions that have 3 shifter locations. The difference between Ford Installations and GM installations is the drilling of the thicker lower mounting ears and the input bearing cover outer pilot dimension. The GM installations uses the Ford output spline count and must have a different front driveshaft yoke.

The T56 is a 6 speed not related to the T5 in any way and comes in one OEM flavor with the the front half of the bell housing specific to the engines that it is mated up to. There is a T56 Retro that is rare, expensive, and meant to bolt up to the T5 flywheel housing. The early T56's are prone to have the 3/4 shift fork fail. The shift forks are powdered metal and crack, leaving you in two gears simultaneously. There are billet forks available to fix this problem. It is a known common problem.

The T5 is a trans that Tremec acquired from Borg Warner. The T4/T5 trans that has been used in everything from a 4 cylinder camaro, V8 camaro, S-10, Isuzu trucks, Astro Vans, Ford Mustangs, Thunder birds, Jeeps, etc.

The T5 and T4 share many interchangeable parts. The T4 is a T5 with no overdrive gear and a rear housing that will not allow you to add it. the difference between the T5 for Fords and the T5 for GM is the lower mounting ears and the input bearing cover pilot size as well as output spline count. The strongest T5 from the factory is the V8 Camaro transmission capable of 300lb-ft, followed by the V8 mustang transmission (limited only by the input splines. The weakest is the Jeep followed by the S-10. The V8 camaro and the Astro version are the only T-5's with 1-5/32" 26 input splines. The Astro van version however has the weaker 1st gear. The 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder camaro as well as all the S-10 have the 1" 14 spline input shafts. The Ford has the Ford 10 spline as well as the Jeep. 4 x 4 versions are simply the standard T5 with an adapter and T-case bolted on to it. So if you want to build an AWD or 4WD you can by simply playing mr potato head.

Now on to other good things. The Camaro T-5's have longer splines than the S-10's. The Camaro T-5's have shorter input bearing covers. The V8 camaro T5 has the much desired short pilot on the input shaft vs the 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder transmissions because of pilot pushing depth. The Ford T5 uses a larger pilot bushing diameter. The Camaro transmissions are twisted 18 degrees and have the rear mount done this way to bring the shifter 2" closer to the driver. The bellhousing and the tail shaft have the mounting rotated. Most GM flywheel housing castings have both patterns, however only one drilled. I own a rare 2 year production Pontiac only V6 flywheel housing that has both starter humps and both patterns drilled. This was popular with midget racers that were running the 2.8 because they could use either the FWD or RWD engine. The S-10, Jeep, and Ford units are mounted straight up. The Astro Van transmission uses the straight up S-10 tail section with an adapter housing that moves the shifter over 7" towards the driver.

The rear housings are interchangeable with the front housings, however the speedometer gear moves a little bit (covered on inliners). So building a Hybrid is done with a V8 Camaro T5 and the top cover and rear tail section of the S-10 T5. this gives you the strength of the V8 front section and moves the shifter forward as well as mounting the transmission straight up without having to cut input shaft splines, trim off the pilot, or cut the front bearing retainer. The downside is that folks thing the V8 camaro transmission is gold with prices everywhere from $200 to $800.

For more information right from the source, visit the factory web site http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-5.asp#Car

Scott, thank you. I wish I had talked to you before I got so deep into this thing - I think I would be going with a T-5! That said, though, I have the T-56, so I gotta make the best of it - and I ain't even gonna TELL you what I spent on the damned thing! LOL

So anyhow, let me make sure I understand you. Understand - I haven't gotten into a project like this in over 20 years, and I am pretty uneducated when it comes to all the new stuff out there. So all these different model numbers, the T4, T5, T56, T3550, TKO500 and TKO600 - they all refer to different models of tranny? T4 and T5 are related, but you said the T56 isn't. Is it related to these others, the T3550, TKO500 and TKO600? Would it be possible to relocate the shifter position fore and aft on a T56, by swapping out tail sections? Sounds like this is possible with some of these others, but not with the T56...?

And since I suspect you've forgotten more about these things than I'll ever learn, let me throw in one more question. I've seen several threads where they talk about modifying a T5 to have a mechanical speedo drive, I think by removing the exciter ring(?) and replacing it with the gear setup to drive a conventional speedo cable. Is this possible with a T56?

I sure appreciate your help, Scott. Thank you!

Bill

Bill,

I would keep the T56 above the T5. it literally is 10 times the transmission of the T5.

The T4 and T5 are related, however the T3550 is related to the TKO 500 and TKO 600. The T45 and T56 share some parts. There is no other location of shifter on a T45 or T56. These are OEM fitment transmissions only. The T3550, TKO500 and TKO600 have 3 shifter locations (designed as aftermarket transmission), come stock with the shifter in the rear housing, however for about $300 you can buy a shifter for one of the other two locations.

No, you can not move the shifter for or aft on the T56 unless you have room between the transmission and floor. Then you can put a forward gimbal with a rearward connection to the stock shifter. It takes a bit of fabrication, however then you could do it. Problem is you need about 5" between the top of the transmission case and floor to pull it off.

If you want a T5 hybrid, I would put one together for you and swap for your T56 if you want.

No, the only T56 parts available with a mechanical speedometer is the T56 Retro. you will not find these used unless you are really lucky http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/BorgWarner/bwt56.cfm You could call TTC and see if they would make you parts.

Yes, you can swap the rear housing on the T5 for the mechanical speedo unit with the smaller hole needed to hold the outer gear and speedo connection, or if you have access to a machine shop, you could make a sleeve. The tone wheel clips to the output shaft just like the speedometer drive.

Another option for you Bill would be to find a transmission out of either an S-10 4.3 with the Getrag which will have the shifter forward and have the correct bell housing, etc. for the SBC (but is limited to about 250hp) or a ZF transmission from a full size K1500 which also has the shifter forward.

These are transmissions with truck duty in mind and will have a steeper first gear. The T56 is an automotive transmission with a shallower first gear and tight gear spacing.

The question is, do you want a truck for the sake of hauling stuff, or do you want a hot custom truck for hauling a$$?

The T56 would be best for the latter - in this case, put in bucket seats and keep going.

The Getrag or ZF would be better for the former - in this case, keep the bucket seats and keep going.

Thanks again, Scott. This gimbal idea sounds interesting. I could literally raise the hump for increased clearance if I need to and hide it under a console. Any suggestions on a link where someone has done a pictorial on how to engineer such a contraption? I'm fairly handy, but designing this is over my head.

here is my shift pan w/ raised hump to accommodate the T5 Hybrid tranny top because we fitted the engine as high as possible at this firewall area. no gimble the T4 & 5 are similar but the T56 is completely different.
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=20A1.jpg

'''did a version of the T5 not make its way to becoming a 6speed for the 1st gen vipers? '''
i don't believe so. the T5 can not handle the HP of a vip

Jim, Nice metal work on the trans cover.

The shifter location on a T5 is much farther forward than that of the T56. The T56 is a bit longer than the T5 and has the shifter in the rear only.

Bill, As stated, determine the use of your truck. I myself would sell the bench, put in a pair of comfortable seats (maybe from a BMW 7 series) and put in a center council. Then again, I would most likely want to use the truck for towing, so I would opt for a built 700R4 or 4l80e.

However, based on your comments, my guess is that you really want to keep the bench seat.

scott,
i've enough $$ in this daily driver as is, ground off. i'm 6-3 and the fit is tight. mostly it's carolines truck. i have way to many of my projects other than this.
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=3196190-R2-046-21A.jpg
the two in the background Plus another like this have to get built.

w/ grand kids and only 2 seats, she needs the three.
we went w/ a modern fold down back to access storage behind the seat.
see
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=0449220-R1-032-14A.jpg
https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread...;Main=52134&Number=403037#Post403037
Ps
she doesn't yet know about the heated seats.

by the way

there is a way to Short Shift a T~5
http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/shifter/index.html
mine:
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=584226-R1-004-0A.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=584226-R1-048-22A.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=584226-R1-044-20A.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=584226-R1-040-18A.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=584226-R1-046-21A.jpg

Scott- I just caught this thread. Would you describe for me the getrag or ZF options? I use my truck as a truck, like the granny first of my SM420, but would like an overdrive on top. A PM is fine if this is too far off-topic.

Devin

Devin,

PM sent

Scott

was reading through this thread a few days ago, then got into a conversation on another chevy truck forum and the following link was posted. Lots of great info.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/transmissions-drivetrain/444098-t5-faq-everything-we.html

Sorry I've been gone so long, gang! Here's an update... I had the truck in my uncle's body shop for over a year while I went through a divorce, a heart attack and a bunch of other crap - but all along, I've been dabbling with the truck. Well, it is getting really close to being done. I put in the T-56, and the shifter comes up just about perfectly, right between the front corners of the '05 Silverado high-back buckets where my hand falls naturally on the knob. All is sweet .... except the blasted clutch. I put a lot of effort into figuring out the correct flywheel, clutch, pressure plate and TO bearing to go with the T-56 (Be advised - if any of y'all are considering this swap, if you are accumulating parts piecemeal like I did, here are helluva lot of folks out there who don't know their tails from apple butter! LOL) I finally gave up trying to figure out which high perf stuff would work best and opted for all stock OEM stuff to fit the '94 Z-28 with a T-56, including a stock '94 Z-28 hydraulic clutch master and slave, which I bought in a sealed set... no problem. Just have to figure out how to rig it to the firewall. But Uncle didn't want to try to adapt the master to the firewall, so he took off the slave, discarded the master and line I just bought, and used an old, original brake master for a clutch master. So far, probably still ok, right? And it solves the pedal hook-up issue. But now down where the slave hooks up to the T-56, apparently there is some sort of spacer missing where the slave mounts up, so he cobbled up this nightmare adapter to mount the slave, and apparently there is something off somewhere, as when you push in the clutch, the pedal does down about 3/4 of the way to the floor before the clutch disengages - and 1/2"-3/4" further on the pedal and it sounds like the yoke is into the danged pressure plate! SO... does anyone out there have any idea what in blazes would cause this? And does anyone have any idea how thick this missing spacer is, or better yet, the part number for it? Thanks for your help, everyone!