Has anyone put a cummins diesel in an old 1.5 or 2 ton? I was toying with the idea, just a thought.
Also on a more relevent to this time, i am trying to find a place that has the right size hose and fittings that are on a 235 engine that go from the block to the oil filter canister and back. I have been to O'Reilys and Autozone and they had nothing. Any ideas
Any of the 855 cubic inch Cummins inlines will be WAAAY too big and heavy for the chassis and suspension. I'm planning to install an Onan-Cummins turbo diesel 120 HP inline engine in a 59 Burb I'm restoring, along with a Turbo 400 transmission, to go with the Dana 60 3/4 ton GMC rear end that's been in it for the past 25 years or so. I'll also be using a narrowed 8-lug IFS out of a later Chevy 3/4 ton truck. It's going to be my tow rig, pulling a 16 foot car hauler trailer. These engines were scavenged out of UPS vans when they retro-fitted to a different engine about 10 years ago. I've got 5 of them.
For your oil filter lines, go to any shop that builds hydraulic lines. They can put any ends you want on them. I think the original lines had 1/8" NPT threads on both ends, with one end made to swivel to prevent kinking the line as the nut is tightened. I've got an oil filter assembly, with lines stashed away in the shop. I'll check tomorrow, and post some pics if possible. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I have seen a few of these 4BT swaps in old Chevy trucks, and I think they are a great idea. My 52 1 ton may get one eventually, but that's way down the list.
A 4BT is a smallish Cummins 4 cylinder about 120hp + or -, depending on how it is setup, same family as the dodge truck engine, so essentially 2/3 of a dodge engine. They are very common in step vans and industrial equipment.
One of the most important parts of an engine swap is gearing, particularly a diesel. You have to have the proper gear ratios and tire size combo to make the best use of the engine and possible fuel economy. So a rear axle swap and or transmission swap is also to be considered.
I have seen two Cummins Diesel conversions in 1-ton AD trucks. I would expect the conversion on the bigger truck to be similar.
One of the two I've seen was tooling down the freeway and I passed it on the way to a truck show. I later saw it setting in the parking lot at the show. I looked it over but didn't get to talk to the owner.
The other was built by a guy in Texas who documented the swap on the forum at OldGMCTrucks.com. That guy I know used a Dodge pickup as a donor for many of the parts. He modified the firewall to get the six cylinder motor to fit.
1955 1st GMC Suburban | 1954 GMC 250 trailer puller project | 1954 GMC 250 Hydra-Matic | 1954 Chevy 3100 . 1947 Chevy COE | and more... It's true. I really don't do anything but browse the Internet looking for trouble...
I'm in the very early stages (planning, measuring, tear down, and acquiring parts) of installing a 5.9 Cummins in a 1942 1-1/2 ton dually pickup. It is also using 3500HD/P-30 drivetrain parts. My goal is modern performance, diesel power, and classic looks---and a gooseneck hitch to haul Johnny Poppers (two-cyl. John Deere's).
The first ebay link is a Chevy cab on a dodge chassis, but nice looking none the less. I swapped a few questions with the seller the first time it was listed.
That Diamond T was nice too, if I did not already have a project it would have been tempting....
On the Diamond T, did you see where he said he used the 3500HD spindles on the original Diamond T axle? Did you investigate that as an alternative when you narrowed the axle for your truck? I'm not sure I like the idea of combining old/new parts on something like steering components. They're all engineered to work together. I suppose it could work if everything (spindle mounting surface/angle, bolt pattern, wheel offset, etc.) were perfect--and you were able to find a way to mount the brake calipers. But, then again, he also said he still needed to bend the axle to get the camber right. I just thought that was an interesting approach.
Steering axles on larger trucks are usually manufactured by a vendor who supplies axles to all manufacturers. The old Holllander books listed what would interchange. On an I beam axle, the only way to set the camber is by bending the axle. Alignment shops have anchors in the floor to chain the axle while they use a jack to bend it. Axles lose their camber with time. We have a jig in our shop to use a 100 ton press to put camber back into 25,000 lb trailer axles. When axles lose camber, they run the tread off on the inside.
Yes, I had considered just using the spindles on the old axle, and I have seen an AD COE done this way, disc brakes from the P30 but original I-beam. I decided it is not as good of an idea as narrowing the new axle to fit. At least for the AD axle the ends had to be welded on and beefed up to fit the spindle and king pin, not a very clean solution I thought, and somewhat questionable on strength at that point. the original axle looks about 1/2 the physical size of the P30, so not a lot of extra factor of safety on the modifications.. And as you also noticed, the Diamond T had issues with the king pin inclination angles of old and new not matching up, and now requires probably some serious bending to correct.
There is not much of a problem with steering as you thought, the I-beam it's self has no connection to the steering linkage, so if you use new spindles you use the new bell-cranks and steering linkage, at that point the old stuff it not an option any more.
So, yes I have considered it, I have seen it done, and I still like narrowing the whole thing.
I might suggest two things. See if you can get the suspension for a Cummins and graft it to your truck, and then do some very serious sound-proofing. the cabs on these trucks are like being inside of a steel drum, and they seem to amplify any sound.
3.42, depends on the fuel pump and mods done to it. you can get about 170hp out of the 4B without aftercooling.
The problems we face today can not be addressed at the same level of intelligence we were at when we created them - Albert Einstein Or with the same level of $ - Me
What axle ratio would you want with the 4BT/TH400 to give a decent cruise?
Best to figure your own gear ratios and speeds by plugging in all the variables, tire diameter included. I like this gear calculator: http://www.onlineconversion.com/bigger_tires.htm use the last on on the page.
The 4BT is supposed to get good mileage at about 1,600-1,700 rpm, assuming the truck is not really heavy. if really heavy the RPM at cruising speed will need to be higher.
So, some rough figuring: 33" tires, no OD, 70 mph, and 1,650 rpm says you need a 2.3 rear axle ratio. Best find an OD transmission, or really big tires... play with the variables till you find a combination that gives you want you want with suitable and available parts.
The idea is to be at cruising speed on the freeway with the engine at the RPM, or just faster, that it makes it's peak torque. Then it gets good fuel economy and is very drivable. Either under or over geared waste fuel, and don't forget about the weight of the truck and the HP available, they have to be compatible too, (a single cylinder lawn mower engine won't move a pickup down the highway at 70 mph).
What axle ratio would you want with the 4BT/TH400 to give a decent cruise?
So, some rough figuring: 33" tires, no OD, 70 mph, and 1,650 rpm says you need a 2.3 rear axle ratio.
Grigg
Yikes! Overdrive it is. I was hoping to to just pull the engine out of a P30 and stick it in a bolt. Out of curiosity, what axle do they run in the P30?
What's your opinion of the 700r4 for 3/4 and 1 ton dully trucks? I bought a business and over the next few years plan to build up a pair of 3/4 ton bolts for estimators and replace the 8 current trucks with 1 tons with boxes (I can't decide if it would look ok to cut the step van body and convert it into a box or if I should just buy boxes. Bolt panel vans are too hard to find and a little small)
I have no experience with automatic transmissions, that is what a 700R4 is right?
If I ever own a truck with an automatic it is likely to be a new 6 speed Allison, because I like how they act, and adapt to driving habits and the load, and they are available with two overdrive gears. I am afraid of the price though, and cost of repairs and parts... But for the most part I don't care for automatic transmissions, when manuals work so well, and cost less.
Most step vans are nearly 8' wide, and an AD Chevy truck is very narrow... So if I understood your question/possible plan? Then I don't think it's a good idea to put a step van tail on an AD truck.
A custom built box is probably going to look better, more professional at least.
The 700r4 is an auto. I've thought about manuals but with that many people driving and with some who aren't used to manuals it could be a problem. I looked at the Allison online last night and it looks interesting but if the price is high like you're thinking it may not be the best option.
As far as the box, I think you're right as far as a custom box. I was thinking for the box trucks that I would transfer the AD cab to the P30 frame and widen the front fenders. I may also need to go with a larger wheel/tire or decrease the size of the wheel well opening. It looks like the 19.5 from the P30 would look pretty small.
Here is a picture of the P30 axle and wheels under a 1 ton. The wheels and tires fit pretty good, and look good I think. http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1484236297080251109lCqQCo The problem comes with the axle, it is 10.25" narrower now than when it came from the P30. If I had not narrowed it the wheels would have stuck out of the fenders about 5" each side. This would be a problem with putting the old truck body on the P30 Chassis, fenders would need to be widened, is there a clean way to do that??
I was thinking 1.5-2 tons with the wider front fenders for the conversion with a box. The pickups would just be an engine/trans swap with a different rear axle. How difficult would it be to put a 2.5-3" plug in the fender along the mounting flange to widen it? Just looking, it looks fairly straight forward.
What are you using for power in your one ton and how does it perform?
The 1.5 and 2 tons don't have much wider fenders, and only about 1.5" wider axle/track width than the 1 ton.
The 1.5 and 2 ton fenders look pretty poor with 8-19.5 tires in them, the wheel and tire combo looks to small I think. This truck (not mine) has the 19.5 wheels and tires, it is a COE, but fender openings are similar to the conventional 1.5 and 2 tons. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2266791690080251109cjiqet
I am not sure there is an easy way to widen the front fenders to fit a wide axle because of the grill and head light. Running boards would not match up as well, and may need to then be wider too?
I have considered all these options before, and for me I decided that narrowing the P30 axle was the best and best looking option, and possibly not much more work than the other ways, but with I think far superior results in look and function of the whole truck.
My 1 ton pickup has a 1955 model 235 and a 4 speed, it had 4.56 gears. Other than the great disc brakes (front and rear) and power steering it was essentially stock, or close to it. It performed well, took me on an 8,000 mile trip around the country in a month, at just over 50 mph. The axles and PS that I put under it are now under my 48 2 ton. I had planned for them to be in a 2 ton from the very beginning, the 1 ton was just a test mule. The 2 ton, has a diesel, a 10 speed, and the P30 axles with 9R22.5 tires, seen here: http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2363176510080251109dwKHxr
The small wheels and tires just don't look right. The ones I have seen either look like the tire is swimming in the opening or they lowered the truck and it looks like a low rider. Are the 9R22.5s readily available and reasonably priced?
I've thought too about narrowing the front axle but if the p30 frame was used would it mess up the suspension geometry? Also, would the rear axle also need to be narrowed or could it be left at the stock width without looking strange?
Your 2 ton is really looking good! I've been following your posts about it for a long time. I'm really looking forward to seeing it finished.
The 9R22.5 tires are readily available, and priced like the big truck tires they are, but they do last a long time, not over priced, but not cheap either. The problem comes with the wheels, they are available, but not new. It takes some looking to find used ones, but they are not expensive. This Tech tip explains your options http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/wheels/
I don't think narrowing the P30 axle for use on the P30 chassis is an option, but I have not measured and figured to see for sure. Like you suggest, the front suspension may be a problem. Say you narrow the axle, then move the springs and spring hangers in a similar amount, the frame is still wide and the tires rub it in a turn. Can the whole front section of the frame be narrowed along with the axle? If you have a complete P30 handy can you take some measurement and do some figuring?
The rear axle can probably stay the same. My rear axle is a Dana 70HD from a P30, and outside of the duals is about 7', very narrow I think for still having duals, and it will look good with a flat bed just as wide as the rear tires are.
Thanks, I have had a good time working on my 2 ton, and continue to, but if I could only get it done it would be more fun...
Are the 9R22.5 what's commonly used on school busses? I thought or a school bus donor truck but they are even wider than the p30 and the rear axles must be slow as the busses I remember as a kid moved very slowly.
Would a mid '80's Chevy 1 ton dually pickup have the same dimensions as the p30? I have a neighbor who has one and it sounds like it would be well worth it to take some measurements.
Yes, school busses sometimes run 9R22.5 tires, also a lot of medium sized RV's do.
School bus axles are a lot to wide. The problem you run into with narrowing a really wide axle to fit an AD truck is the distance from the king pin to the spring pad can be to much. So you narrow the center considering the track with, and then the spring pads end up being a lot to narrow, and you don't have room to stretch them out any.
The Chevy 3500HD (just stronger than a 1 ton) has an I beam front axle almost the same as the P30, they use most of the same parts. This is the axle I used for my front, a 1994 model, but I would use a P30 if I do it again, the measurements work about a little better, and the steering is different, could probably use the stock manual box if needed.
An independent front axle truck is a whole different box of worms, I don't like that idea, and don't have any suggestions on that kind of swap.
I have a P30 front axle http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2024492560080251109VNDanJ When I run out of things to do for my truck I will narrow it to replace the one I have, and change the steering around a little bit. This time I will narrow it just enough to fit the wheels in the fenders and look good. I think I may have narrowed the first one about 1.5" more than I should have.... I only had the 1 ton at he time, and was under the impression that the track width was identical to a 2 ton, which it is not.
The 4BT is supposed to get good mileage at about 1,600-1,700 rpm, assuming the truck is not really heavy.
The engine uses .32 to.34#/hp hr of fuel. Therefore the more loaded the engine, the more fuel used. Economy will be determined by engine load, injector, combustion bowl, tier level, injection timing and other factors more so than RPM. A stock Tier 1 4BTA 130hp engine in a '48 3/4T with a Camaro T5 (v8 variety) and 3.42 rear with 31" tall tires ran great pulling trailers, etc. at 70mph all day. The 4BT would be a little light for a big bolt if you are hauling a lot unless you keep the speed down with gear ratios. For trucks 1T and larger I recommend the 6B if you are looking to get highway speeds out of the truck. You will then also need a stronger trans.
Just my 2 cents.
The problems we face today can not be addressed at the same level of intelligence we were at when we created them - Albert Einstein Or with the same level of $ - Me
Right, All of those things are important too, but RPM is a way of making sense of all that and giving you a good guess as to where economy can be found.
My point is that if the engine has enough HP and torque to move the vehicle at the seed you want at the ideal RPM, (assuming you chose the right engine to do the job) then that is about where you will find the best mileage you can hope for for that speed and weight of vehicle.
Compare driving a suitably light vehicle at 65 mph and 1,700 rpm To driving the same one at the same speed, but at 3,200 rpm.
Assuming the engine is comfortable at the low RPM, and not lugging, then clearly you will get better mileage that way.
So, yes there are a bunch of factors, and ideal operating RPM is one of them.
This Cummins info Secrets of Better Fuel Economy; The Physics of MPG has lots and lots of tips and suggestions and factors on making good mileage in a truck, big trucks, but most all of it applies to any vehicle: http://www.everytime.cummins.com/assets/pdf/MPG_Secrets_Whitepaper.pdf
I was looking at a 87 one ton today and something occurred to me: do they make a front disk/hub without the long hub extension for a wheel without the deep dish?
