The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Original gray engine color

I Just bought a 1946 chevy pickup, I pulled the motor apart to clean it and fix all the leaks, I remember someone telling me that to get the corect color you have to mix gray paint and I thought black 50-50 mix to get the corect color. Has anyone ever heard this? Thanks

This has been discussed adnauseum. I haven't followed the threads because I don't care, I painted my valve & side covers semiflat black. Someone will be along shortly claiming to know the "correct" color but that depends on who you talk to. The concensus here seems to be different than the concensus on the VCCA site.

Even the present VCCA people do not agree with older information from VCCA people.

Could be, like I said it depends on who you talk to. If it isn't going to be a concourse truck I wouldn't worry about it myself. If it IS going to be a concourse truck you need to find out what the judge(s) consider "correct".

jim carter sells engine paint and its close if not 100% correct

Check out the Filling Station. They offer a good explanation for their shade of grey.

The VCCA judging accepts both Jim Carter and the Filling Station as the correct dark gray color. Bill Hirsh gray is not correct. We have many original cars and trucks and they match the Filling Station gray I think the VCCA has been very clear on that for many years. Jim VCCA #1046

Here we go again huh! Besides all the effort a lot of us have invested here some of us have also been involved with the discussions over at the VCCA site. In fact we just posted another discussion this morning.
Bill Hirsch, OUT! The Filling Station, IN! Chevs of the 40's is changing their formula from the Bill Hirsch paint back to the “Krylon Products Group, Krylon Industrial coatings, under the Omni-Pak label numbers EN-16, 25116.”
Here’s the latest discussion if anyone cares to read it. http://vccachat.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showgallery&Number=119160
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I painted mine the Bill Hirsch Gray... sue me.

Bryan's question was about the "correct" engine color for his 1946 Woodsman. I just naturally assumed he wanted to know what the experts have agreed on after years of historical research.

How was the trip to Auburn, Indiana???
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

For what years does the VCCA accept Jim Carter (PT115) and the Filling Station (FS-359, I assume) as the correct dark gray color for 235 truck engines (1929-1962, as listed in JC's catalog)? It is interesting that the Filling Stations lists both a blue (H-5, 53-62) and a gray (FS-359) engine paint for car and truck engines (Jim Carter correctly list the blue color for high-pressure 235 car engines).

I have used PT115 and I would not call it a dark gray but I like the color. Does anyone (Denny?) have chips painted with Filling Station's and with Jim Carter's truck engine paints (it would be interesting to compare them?)

Also, is there not good evidence that the gray color changed from a darker gray (with a little blue in it, maybe) to a lighter gray (on truck engines) around the time the 235 changed from low pressure to high pressure (or, least over the range of years that a 235 was available - 1941-1962)?

Finally, who sells a blue engine paint for the 235 Blue-Flame-Six that meets the VCCA blessing (the Filling Station, H-5, and Jim Carter, PT116)?

There are "experts" and there are historical experts. An historical expert would be someone interested in finding the original paint code (Ditzler or Dupont). Does anyone have such a code?

Bob Adler is an expert that is well-respected. I think that he has indicated that PPG 34560 (modern code) is a good match for 216/235 truck engines (but, I do not recall for which years - I'll check that out tonight).

All of this is, of course, BS. Even "experts" agree that the engine colors used at the engine factories were not perfectly mixed by formula over the years. That being the case, is arguing the correct shade of gray somewhat similar to arguing what religion is the one true religion?

Well Timothy, ya got me there on the 235 colors. It's about all I can do to stay up with the early ones up to and including the 216. I’m fortunate to have gotten a 95% complete and original truck from the original owners. There was very little changed on the truck over the 53,000 miles that they had it. So all I’m doing is reporting on what I have found on my particular year and model. I don't now have nor do I recall seeing any of the early 235's so we'll have to let you be the expert on those.
I have no idea if anyone has ever seen the original engine paint codes/specs or whether they even exist any more. It’s been my experience with the VCCA that if there is any of this information archived that there are only a select few that have access to it and they are very secretive about who can see it. A few months back one of the members was even told that he couldn't have the paint formulas for the interior AD paint unless he was a confirmed and approved VCCA members. I got the same treatment when I wanted to look at some pictures that were posted even though I had been a member for 1 1/2 years.
If someone can swipe a sample of the JC PT-116 on an old tin can lid and send it to me for comparison to the FS-359, I’ll post the results. It would be interesting to see how the three look side by side, i.e., JC, FS and BH.
If your sure about the PPG 34560 from Bob Adler Tim I’m willing to blow a few bucks and see if the PPG dealer will draw me a pint.
I refuse to talk about religion or politics but I am willing to listen to this discussion, so no, it’s not the same. Besides, I know I’m right, (tongue in cheek remark)!
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

If you want to know were the information for the "Filling Station" paint came from check this link;http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?...~Z5Z5Z50000014x

The Filling Station paint is mixed from the PPG brand and not from whatever was stated earlier by someone.
I and many other members of the VCCA have had original cars/trucks with very low mileage and have torn down more than 30 engines myself since 1950's from the years 1932 to 1941 and have always found the dark gray paint to be a close match to the Filling Station paint color.

Sorry, Jim, but the link as posted is not useful.

My comment about Filling Station and Jim Carter paints was only made because it was posted (above, by you) that those sources are "acceptable"; however, my bet/guess is that they are distinctly different shades of gray (darker gray for Filling Station and lighter gray for Jim Carter). That is why I asked if anyone had samples from both paints. I am not arguing; I am just asking.

The 1946 engine color that Bryan asked about is the darker gray ("blue gray" in a in a 1996 article written by a VCCA member.) From what people have reported, Filling Station has a good match for Bryan's '46 engine, but should that darker blue-gray be used through 1962?

"PPG brand"?? Did someone have an original Ditzler code? If so, it would be nice to know the code (if it is not a secret). "The Filling Station paint is mixed from the PPG brand and not from whatever was stated earlier by someone." What was posted earlier?

Original Ditzler and Dupont codes are available for most interior and exterior colors but seemingly not for engine colors. It is possible for PPG to provide modern codes for just about any original Ditzler color code. I can understand why a parts/paint vendor might not want to give out an original code but I would hope that a club or individual would be willing to post a code.

By the way, the VCCA imprimatur is not needed to know exterior/interior Ditzler/Dupont/PPG paint codes because these are readily available (at least for Advance-Design years).

Thanks for all th help! I never realized there was someone who sold it, I thought it was a "one off" thing

Well Jim, old buddy, yep, ya hurt my feelin’s! Over here I don’t think I’m really known to be a BS artist and I usually back up what I post so here is the paint that I got from the Filling Station just a few months ago. http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2043031300098611668liVlGD So I guess the Filling Station is BS’n me, is that how you would explain it? This is also the exact same paint packaged exactly the same way as what I got from Chevs of the 40’s last year. I have also posted in my album, comparisons to several other gray paints that are not anywhere close to this FS-359 color, one of them being the Bill Hirsch paint.
And Tim, I guess your right, its like religion or politics, ya just can’t win. So in the words of one of our regular members, “I painted mine the Filling Station Gray... so sue me. “
And the codes for the interior and exterior colors, yes they are readily available, I think I have spent more than my share of time trying to get those numbers out on the table for anyone that is really interested.
And once again, I hope I’m done with this one, moving on now.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Thank God that I'm color blind!!!! Its your truck, paint it whatever color you think is correct...

Excellent... PM on the way with details.

Well Jim, I do owe you an apology. All this misunderstanding could be avoided if people would just speak up and make the facts known.
I’ve been following a similar thread over at VCCA chat and Steve from The Filling Station just popped in with a revelation. The paint is a proprietary PPG formula as Jim pointed out, however PPG does not sell spray cans. Krylon does sell cans, so the PPG paint is packaged for them in cans labeled as Krylon Industrial Group. So, sorry I doubted your word Jim.

I believe this was what you were trying to post:
http://www.parts123.com/parts123/yb.dll?parta~dyndetail~Z5Z5Z50000014a~Z5Z5Z505980~P59.95~~~~S2CH0MSHAW71193151436e~Z5Z5Z5~Z5Z5Z50000014x
This is new to me, I never new it existed on their site.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Yes it is, no hard feelings. I usually have the information to back up what write even if I don't mention it at the time. ALL the original paint systems used by GM up until the late 50's/ 60's was produced by DuPont as GM had a big stock investment in DuPont. Production plants did not always paint or stripe the same or had the same colors but they always used the same DuPont paint. The engine plants have always used the same DuPont dark blue tinted gray enamel.

I'm still interested in making up a comparison chart of the choices of gray that are out there. In an article (no date) at chevyrucks.org by Bob Adler stated that he used some pieces for a computer color match and came up with PPG #32560 for gray paint. He also mentioned that this color was from pieces that he had painted years ago from eyeball mixing. I have not checked with PPG to see if they can mix this number.

Tim's chart shows PPG #34560 as applied to the 1954-55 235’s. I spent some time with the PPG dealer today and this is not a good number, it’s not listed under any of their systems. I’m wondering if the number shouldn’t read 32560 instead of 34560, Tim???

I would still like to get a sample of the JC PT-115 paint for the comparison chart if anyone has an open can on the shelf.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I'd like to point out something as we all sit here trying to figure out the correct shade of a paint color.
For those out there that are color blind you have no problem...you know what you can't see.
But here's the thing we don't consider hardly at all, and that is there are persons out there which have what I'll refer to as partial color blindness or the inability to correctly see shade differences in a color.
Think about it...when were we ever tested to determine our ability to correctly see a color.
We see it as Red, but do we all see it as the same shade of Red?
I personally worked with a guy who had this condition, and he knew he had this problem.
I know this does not solve the gray paint issue, but I think it may help to explain why there is so much controversy over what is correct.
Now this should really help solve this gray issue, Right ? lol
Dan

Denny,

As I mentioned in a PM to you, the PPG number I posted, 34560, is the number given in a 1998 article by Bob Adler. It is possible the number was incorrect or that it is now out of date.

I have a little of JC's PT115 gray engine paint in a can but it is over 5 years old and might be a little dried out.

What is the number(s) of your webshots photos of paint samples?

Also, you have to be a VCCA member (not just a VCCA discussion board member) to look at the VCCA link you gave above.

glasman,

Your reasoning is excellent and it is another good reason that people should be careful when they hear someone say they know what the correct paint color/shade is. Over the years, many people within the VCCA and elsewhere have been firm in stating what they are sure was the paint color. Moreover, they often disagree with each other.

Paint your engine whatever shade of gray, blue gray, or dark gray that suits you. Just nod your head when someone says they are sure that you have the wrong color. Thank them, and tell them that you would really like to know the original color code, if they have it. If they do not have it, tell them your great aunt's sister had a brother that owned several trucks in the 40s-50s and his son painted his engine in 1970 to match the color that his father described. Explain that you were given that truck and engine a few years ago but that the truck had sat in a barn in New Mexico since the 70s and you obtained a computer-scan color-match of the engine color.

Tim

I wonder if all assembly plants were the same. I have been around dealerships enough to know that a vendor for any given sub-product can change. I just think that the person that claims the know that every car or truck that rolled off the asembly line had an absolute given engine paint color has opened himself up to be made a fool of. I was taught that you should not believe the word of someone that uses the words always and never.

you got it Greg, every plant used local suppliers for out-sourced bits, and no doubt there was at least slight variation among all the plants for engine color, the factory was producing cheap consumer goods, not concours show trucks, and I doubt any buyer was grousing that the engine color delivered wasn't what was shown in the adverts

Bill