The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts Budd to Dayton wheel adapters

Here is a picture of a cast adapter that converts a stud centering Budd hub for use with open center Dayton rims.

<a href="http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2000813180080251109qYSiuG"><img src="http://inlinethumb28.webshots.com/3291/2000813180080251109S200x200Q85.jpg" alt="IMG_1975"></a>

This was on a ford 4X4 plow truck at the Macungie show last weekend. The conversion was done by Marmon Herrington. The original rear axle had Dayton hubs, I would assume that the front axle supplied by MH was only available with Budd hubs, so they also supplied the adapters so only one type of spare would be needed.

So, here is proof that such an adapter exist.

I am still searching to find a set of similar adapters that fit the 10 lug hub centered pattern on the AD Chevy and GMC trucks. 7.25" bolt circle with 5.25 center hole.

I have been told that there were adapters made for this pattern, but I have yet to see proof....

Grigg

Hey Grigg I never doubted you. But I do question why anyone would want to do that?

It's fine to have doubted me, because until I saw one in person I even doubted the people who had told me about them.

I can't see a really good reason for them, other than the reason I explained above. I don't know why you would want a whole set of them, front and rear...

That said, if there were actually some made with the small 10 lug pattern I would not mind a set for my truck. I would only want them to be different though, as I already have a good set of 22.5 wheels. If I had a set of the adapters I would run the same size tires, the only difference would be the aggravation of getting the rims to run true, and the looks.

Grigg

did you ever hear back from tomcoe the daytons on the front of that truck he posted sure had odd looking set up.

No, I have not read or seen anything on the subject from tomcoe in quite some time.

I am curious to see what he actually has, Dayton hubs or Budd to Dayton adapters.

And if they are adapters are they for the small 10 lug? I am half way looking for a set if they exist...

Grigg

Sorry Guys, been out of the loop, and still am...just busy with work. I've looked at my truck a few times, but haven't been able to play. I haven't forgotten and the upcoming days don't look too much more open...problem with owning your own business, I can't clock out at 5:00. I'll be back, I promise.

Dang.... I hope who ever cast the thing got it "right" OR it would prob. vibrate. If you got driving that fast....

I was just looking through my 48-53 GMC big truck master parts catalog.
They list and show pictures of both front and rear "Dayton wheel adapters".

I can't figure out how to tell what the internal bolt pattern is from reading the book. If I could perhaps I could prove or disprove the existence of adapters with 10 lugs on 7.25" circle.

Grigg

I don't know that I've ever seen any of these things, but the picture does make them look interesting.

Have you ever seen the billet used to make custom wheels, like the way Boyd Coddington's outfit does it? I'm wondering if you could have these things carved from billet and that way make them to suit your needs.

Probably would not be a cheap option, but would allow choosing the offset and bolt patterns.

Yes, I am sure I could have some machined, and I believe my lathe is actually big enough I could do it my self.

But I don't need any that bad, it would cost a fortune either to have them made, or just the time if I made them.

I think that hub piloted Budd type wheels are the best. But I find the adapters interesting, that's why I would want a set at the right price.

Grigg

A little truckin' history for you people, here from the left coast. At one time, the general school of thought was that Budd hubs were for highway trucks, but if you wanted to work your riggin' in rough country or on heavy hauls, the Dayton was the way to go. So, if I had a 3408-powered tractor and I wanted to pull it off the road and put it to hauling logs or wotever in the bush, I'd have thought hard about those adapters, for the drive axles at least. I know this: Once you've retorqued a Dayton 'till it won't retorque no more, you can put whatever power you like to it, and it won't spin.

Kind of heard that..... similar. Maybe here... someone stated that 'modern' container trailers still have Dayton style on them. Something about the rim not bending as much if the container crane operator were to "drop" the container on the trailer. Weight/abuse would get transfered to the 'spokes' sooner I would guess.....

I looked in the 48-53 GMC heavy duty parts catalog again last night.

I was able to figure out that the cast adapters, both front and rear were only made to fit the 6 lug Budd hubs. So, at least from the info I have they were not made to fit the 10 lug on 7.25 bolt circle.

The adapters were apparently used on some 400 series GMC trucks.

Lets see some pictures of them on someones truck.
Now that we know they are out there.

Grigg

Grigg, '47-'55 GMC 400 series trucks, came standard with true Daytons, & not the Dayton adapters.

Yes, I know most of them did. However, my original parts book number X-152002, printed April 1952 covering 1949-53 models 400-980 and 1947-48 model 450, list them for those models and years, probably as an uncommon option.


The part number for the front Dayton adapters are:
2111441
2214085
And rear adapters:
2240170
2214083
2240171

There are different part numbers depending on the back spacing / tire size used.

They are listed for use on both the front and rear of model numbers:
400 HCS, HCW
450 HC, HCS, HF, FC, FCS, FF
470 HC, HF
520 HC, HCS, HF
600 HC, HF
620 HC, HCW, HF
640 HC, HF

Grigg

Yea, I've got the same catalog, in front of me now, page 753. The 5 stud adapter has me kinda confused though. All 400, & most 450 series GMC's, I've seen, that had optional, & standard disc. type wheels, were 6 stud Motor wheels. The 470's were available with 6, & 10 stud Motor, & Budd Wheels. I see where there was also a 6 stud adapter.

Where it says 5 stud I believe they are talking about the number of dayton clamps. Had me confused for a while too.

Grigg

And here is the proof...
[IMG]http://thumb9.webshots.net/t/64/564/8/85/47/2573885470080251109NLeIQV_th.jpg[/IMG]

To fit an AD Chevy 1.5 or 2 ton, 10 lugs on 7.25" circle, 4.75" center hole. They will allow running new 22.5" tubeless Dayton rims on an original AD truck, or tube type 20" Daytons as they would have used at the time.

I should have them in hand in a few weeks, and will take a few more pictures of them then.

Anyone else seen some, have a set, or know of some for sale?

Grigg

Wow Grigg quite the score!! You have been huntin them down for a wile what you going to put them on???

I thought I would put them on my 48 6400 project, then I would have a unique truck

If not then I already have the regular 22.5" wheels for it, either way I'll run 9R22.5 tires.

What do you think I should run, adapters and Daytons, or "budd" wheels?

Grigg

Grigg,

Seems the Henry Maudslay guote in your signature suits this thread well.

As for which wheels to run, well I think the Budds look more natural on your size and vintage of truck. My 1946 (now 42) project is very similar to yours using the P30/3500HD chassis components and a diesel (I'm using a 5.9 Cummins, though). My goal is to have the performance and drivability of modern components, but have the outside of the truck look basically stock (restored), to make it into a unique and functional working truck. So, the Budds would look more stock.

But, then again, I also like the looks of the Daytons because they just look "beefier". Also, the Dayton adapters will certainly be a conversation piece. I'm not sure I helped your decision any--it's more a matter of your preference. I would think either would perform well as they're both time-tested designs.

I assume if you use the adapters, you'll just machine the center hole larger? Do you know when they switched from 4.75 to 5.25?

Also, if you decide to part with the 22.5 Budds, please let me know. I was planning to use the 8R19.5's from my P30, but the wheels seem to have an extra "curve" that just doesn't look quite right. And, the extra height of the 9R22.5's will help my gearing dilemma. Before you posted yours, I didn't even know they made 22.5's for the small 10 lug pattern.

Anyway, congrats on your find!!

Bob

I'd rather have Dayton than no wheels at all, but it doesn't look like there are either a lot of Budds or Daytons available.

I contacted Stockton Wheel and they have the 7.25 10 bolt pattern, but only in 19.5.

So I got wild and crazy and sent an inquiry to a Chinese wheel manufacturer. I haven't heard back yet, but I bet they would make some if there is enough demand.

If so, I will probably be looking for a stud centered 10 lug 7.25 center hole, 5 inch offset rim to send to them as a pattern.

I PMed Grigg a few times about my previous message. As usual, I'm so confused. I meant 7.25 inch bolt circle. I didn't really think that I'd have any luck with the Chinese connection, but hope springs eternal.

I guess I'm stuck with looking for wheels from a 1955. A stovebolter from Oklahoma contacted me and said he had a full set of 19.5s for the 3800 and a couple of 22.5s that would fit the 4400, but he was supposed to send pictures, and I haven't heard from him since. I was hoping to get his e-mail address because I can't find his phone number.

Hi Bob,

It does sound like we have the same goals for our trucks, modern but old, and very useful.

Yes, if I want to use the adapters I'll have to bore out the centers from the 4.75 to 5.25". This change was made about 1953/54.

No, I don't think I can part with the Budds, they too are rather difficult to find.
For those looking, probably best bet is to find a whole truck with them, and know what you are looking for, as many people who have them and would sell them just don't know. I have seen a few of the 56-59? 1.5 tons on ebay with these wheels and not bring much money.

For what we are doing, building everyday drivers/work trucks, the 22.5" wheels and 9R22.5 tires are the way to go, as smaller wheels and you cant get fast enough gears in a heavy enough axle (remember these are 1.5 and 2 ton trucks) to keep the diesel happy and be able to comfortably drive on the interstate. Also the 19.5 wheels and tires look to small. I will be running 3.54 gears, and 0.80 overdrive, and that's the fastest ratio currently offered for a Dana 70, 3.73 would probably be suitable too.

I'm surprised we have not seen Spanky here yet?
As he is a little upset that I found these adapters, he noticed the add for them just a few days after I did.
I thought by posting my find, not only would you guys be interested, but perhaps you could scare up a set for Spanky, he has been looking for a set for quite some time now.

Grigg

I'm here Grigg, I ain't mad at ya. If I'm upset at anyone, it's myself, for letting my subscription to, "Wheels Of Time" run out, or I would have known about that ad about 2, to 3 weeks ago. Yeah, I've been looking for some of those things that would fit a Advance Design 2 ton,for nearly 20 years. I'm hoping the consensous will vote for you to keep the Budd wheels over the Daytons Adapters, so I can can possibly purchase them from you. Seeing the pictures of them, just makes me want them worse. I couldn't hardly sleep last night, thinking about them. I've got these new 8.25 radial Yokohamas, out in the shop already mounted on open face rims, waiting for them. Wonder if I've got anything around here I can entice you to part with them for.

Just got back this morning from picking up the wheel adapters, about 1,600 miles in 33 hours total time, glad there were two of us driving.
Here are a few fresh pictures of them:
[IMG]http://thumb9.webshots.net/t/63/663/5/58/49/2254558490080251109InVjju_th.jpg[/IMG]
Click the little one, and then more will follow.

Cast in the inside of all 4 is "DAYTON" so my guess is Dayton made them to fit the AD Chevy trucks so they could sell their own brand of rims? Where some of the other adapters as used on GMC trucks have a GM part number, or perhaps Dayton made those too, and GM stocked and sold them?

Grigg

Way to go Grigg. They look good. Thanks, for the pictures.

Here are some pictures of Spankys new set of 6 lug
Budd to Dayton wheel adapters
and the next 4 pictures too

Grigg

Are the adapters in the new pictures for later trucks? I noticed that they are 6 lugs. Thanks

Those are 2 1/2 thru 3 1/2 ton GMC application Adapters, in the new photos.

One of the GMC's My cousin recently aquired 400 series possibly due to fender width has dayton type wheels on it but they appear to be from the factory not adapters. 47 t0 55 body style. When were these available from the factory thru out production just special order??

Dayton hubs were Standard equipment, on the '47-'55 400 series GMC's. Optional equipment on the 450, & 470 series GMC's. 6 stud Motor Wheels were standard on the 450, & 470 series, & a 10 stud Budd Wheel was also optional on the 470 series. These Dayton Adapters were an available Accessory for these trucks. All 400, 450, & 470 series trucks, had the larger, wider fenders, to accomodate the Heavier, wider front axles used on these series trucks.

Thanks Spanky, Until this discussion came up a few years ago I never paid much attention to the type of wheels I saw. This one is the first I had seen since then in person with the Dayton style wheels. The heavier trucks he has have the 10 stud budd type the 350's have smaller 10 stud budds.

You guys can keep those Dayton wheels. I'd GIVE you adapters, rims, and TIRES if I had them.. I absolutely despise those pieces of antiquated garbage.......

1. They NEVER run true........
2. They take an obscene amount of stud torque..
3. If you don't know what you're doing, the wedges can break your leg when removing the wheel (ALWAYS, ALWAYS keep the lug nuts on the studs, then rap the wedges with a hammer to break them loose. When they let go, they'll fly off with MUCH force if you don't leave the nuts on)
4: They're REALLY heavy..... I suppose for non-commercial use, that'd be fine, but if you even sort of think about doing any commercial hauling, weight in your wheels is weight you cannot haul.....

Just my $.02

Come on now...
I like hub centered Budd wheels myself, but find these Dayton adapters interesting and unique.

And I disagree with your first two points:
1. Dayton wheels will run true if you take the extra minute or two to true them up as you tighten the clamps, it's not that hard...
2. They take much less stud torque.
A typical stud centered Budd wheel takes 450-500 ft.-lb.
A Dayton wheel with 3/4" studs takes 200-260 ft.-lb. Then given that our Dayton wheel adapters have 5/8" studs they take even less torque.
-- Can I give you $0.01 change back on your 2 cents?

Grigg

Dayton Wheels are actually lighter than a Disc wheel. Nothings in the middle. Daytons were usually spec'd on heavier trucks for the saving of weight, plus the advantage of a stronger, hub, tire, wheel combination. Less flexing, & no worrying about a bent, or cracked rim. Stress on a Dayton, is on the rim lip, where stress on a Disc. wheel is in the middle. Daytons were easier to change on the roadside. Spare easier to remove from the truck, plus you didn't need a air wrench to remove the tire from the truck. That's why back in the day you saw more Dayton spec'd trucks, than disc. wheel spec'd trucks. I like the look of Daytons, plus I think they look better painted up in multple colors (wheel painted a different color than the Cast hub), than a solid painted Disc wheel. I like the novelty of these Dayton Adapters i have. They were introduced, to the Trucking Industry, for all the purposes stated above.I've worked with both Daytons, & Disc. wheels, in my 27 yaers as a Bus, & Truck Mechanic, & as long as you made sure the lug studs, nuts, wedges, & the edge of the wheel were free of dirt, or rust, making them run tru, was never a problem for me. Always wire brushed the rim lip, & wedges, & kept the bolt threads even all around.

Well, in theory, that all sounds good. BUT, I, my boss, and the local township road care man spent 45 minutes EACH trying to get the dayton's on the front of his dump truck true..... And we HAD wire brushed the hub and rim.

Also, while the Rim of a dayton may be lighter, the hub is MUCH heavier than a disc wheel..... So in the end, the rolling assembly of a dayton wheel is heavier than the rolling assembly of a disc wheel.

I'll agree they probably are stronger and more rugged, though all the log trucks up here are using aluminum 10-lug hub centered wheels and getting very rough use and no bent rims that I've heard of.......

I'll admit, they look cool.... Though I shudder now when I see them now......

Let's just say this: If I were looking to buy a bus/semi, if it had daytons, I would NOT buy it unless it were a really lucrative deal.

Yep, Sounds good in theory, & in my daily experiences at work. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. A Cast Spoke Wheel hub, with studs, & wedges installed, is lighter in weight, than a steel hub, with a steel rim, at least in the applications I've been working with. When I remove a front wheel with the Cast hub, & drum, as a unit, to inspect front shoes, & bearings, it's lighter in weight than removing the front wheel, (with rim), & hub assembly, on a truck with disc wheels.

Well, that's good. Somebody needs to like them! It's just that this ol' boy isn't one of them.... If I see adapters like these in the future, I'll be sure to let you guys know, as you'll have no purchasing competition from me!