The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts 20" split rim replacment

Anyone know of a supplier that makes a one piece 20" rim that will replace the widow makers on my '41 1 1/2 ton??

nope.

I have been working on a "tech tip" article that covers these wheels, and your possible solutions. Hope to be done soon...

Grigg

Hey 1266Guy there are no one piece 20”wheels all the twenty inchers are tube type. Just because they are tube type wheels doesn’t mean they are widow makers though. Do your wheels have a ring or two that come off one side if they do you are in luck they are standard tube type wheels. The widow makers have no ring and split in to two almost equal halves. If you do a search on the board you will find a plethora of info on wheels or you can wait for Grigg to Finnish his tech article He and I are getting short of breath discussing this wheel thing and if Grigg dose it will have all the needed info!!!

If you do a search it's been discussed before.Not all split rims are what guys call "widowmakers" but they all need to be treated with respect.I broke down at least a dozen rims before I found 6 I was comfortable mounting tires on.When they're this old they tend to rot from the inside out.

That would be very helpful Grigg! brakes and wheels seem to be the biggest questions on the big bolts. I myself am trying to figure out if I have "widow makers" on my 1970 C50. All 6 wheels are the same and look original, there is no small outer ring and they are tube type 8.25x20 . I have tryed to decifer what type they are from previous posts but still not shure? I know they are Illegal here in massachusetts, and I am getting ready to put my truck on the road soon. wondering if I'll have a problem. also I have NO SPARE! and need to find another tire/wheel to fit it. when did they stop making widow makers?

Rust master,

That's the beauty of a duallie -- as long as you're unloaded, you always have two spares

Anyway, here's a couple shots of a center split rim (the true Widow Maker)
With an arrow to show you where the split is

With Another view

Hope this helps!
John

I have two widow makers on my truck, I'd really like to get rid of them as well. Might be one or two shops in the entire county that will even take them apart so I can put my tires on better wheels, nevermind change/patch the tires.

I was looking around and couldn't find the info agian, but I was looking before and there is one company that makes the 6-bolt 20" rims. They only have two hand holes in them, but they are new tubeless type wheels. Typicaly used on street sweepers it seems, hitting up your local truck tire shops or farm equipment stores would be the best bet.

What do you mean 6 bolt? I thought all 20" wheels were 10 bolt? mine are 10 bolts. 10 in the rear, the front only uses 5 of the 10 holes. does any one know who manufactured the widow makers and what year they stopped making them? I was wondering if my truck was "new enough" (1970) not to have them??

Ah, sorry bout that. I have 6 bolt pattern on my beastie, even harder to find than the 10 bolts.
I would think that being a '70 with a 10 bolt pattern, you would be able to find someone still manufacturing 1-piece wheels. Again, check the local truck/farm shops, might be the best place to start.

While you all continue to wait for the tech tip to be finished try this accuride catalog:
http://www.accuridewheels.com/completeversion.pdf

It has what wheels are available new, and I believe 6 lug 20" or 22.5" are available.

You must first know the number of stud holes, bolt circle diameter, the center hole diameter, and if hub piloted or stud piloted. There are many choices of sizes, you need to know for sure what you have to start with.

Grigg

Hey Grigg -- My '65 GMC 4000 has the 6-Hole stud-piloted, 8¾" Bolt Circle, 6.50" Bore widow makers with 8.25x20 tires. In the Accuride catalog, though, the biggest I see in the 6-stud wheels is the 22.5x 6.75 -- will that work?

Thanks,
John

Yes John,
I think those are the ones you want, same bolt pattern right?

Don't buy those new though before you check around the junk yards. Around here they are a popular school bus rim, and can be had cheep including tires from the junk yard.

Grigg

Thanks Grigg -- I just needed to identify what I was looking for. I bet those babies are pricey new!

Now all I have to do is get a bigger impact wrench...

John

I believe that the chevy "P" series vans or "step vans" have a 10 bolt wheel that looks simular in size. The uniform company that we use where I work has one. I noticed it the other day when he was leaving. I'll have to take a closer look at it next time to see exactally what size the wheels and tires are. I believe mine are hub piloted, Where do you measure the bolt circle on a ten bolt? I think it's from the middle of one wheel stud straight across to the middle of the opposing stud. Is this correct???

Guess my question covers some of this as well. I have a 42 1 1/2 ton and an EC 47 1 1/2 ton. One has sticker tires on it and the other is rotted. One truck runs and the other doesn't so in the end I was going to swap rims and tires. The 47's will not fit onto the 42.....what is going on with that?? The other quesion is do I have widowmakers....they are 7.5 X 20's?

Matt

Matt -- I doubt it. But they're pretty easy to spot -- just look in my link above for the picture of what the center split rim (the widowmaker) looks like. They don't have retainer rings on the "dome" side of the rim, but they have a raised ridge in the center of the rim where the two halves lock.

Good luck!
John

Hey John did you get promoted or demoted. Grand Poobah now you are the head janitor, you good at least be a sanitation engineer.
Anyways I think this will answer alot of questions.

http://oldgmctrucks.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4101021591/m/4091036553

John Gott

Type RH-5 is the "widow maker", every other style shown, I think any truck place will work on.

John Gott

Now I have to look again, I believe that mine are widow makers. They have a raised center band ( appear to be 2 pice not three ) made by firestone 20x6.0 and now you mention it the RH-5 rings a bell but I'm not shure??? I 'll have to check tomorow. If it does say RH-5 then I'm definitely screwed right???

there are places that will change them but they are rare.

John,
was there a difference between the 42 and 47 wheels? I thought they would be the same. Right now I cannot interchange them.

Not between the years, but between the tonnage. 1 1/2 & 2 ton are even different. Ray

The problem for me is they are Illegal in Massachusetts and have been for some time.( i'm registering the truck in the next month or so ) It's been so long now since the law came into effect, and there aren't too many older trucks on the road here now, so mabey no one will realize what they are. mine appear to be in good condition ( freshly painted ) and have good rubber, although a little weathered but not badly. Has any one had a problem running them? are they illegal in any other states?

John is right, those two pictures are the "EVIL" split rims, the ones to get rid of and not play with.

These are also the "EVIL" ones:
http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/GRIGG/8.jpg

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/GRIGG/7.jpg

Some more info about these wheels:

These wheels should be avoided. The rim made of two nearly identical haves, actually comes apart in the center. These wheels are hard to identify because you can’t really see how they are made while assembled. It’s easier to identify them by eliminating the other possible wheel types. They are not "Locking Ring," "2-Piece" or "3-Piece Wheels" because they don’t have an easily identifiable ring or rings on one side (lip) of the wheel. They are not singe piece tubeless wheels because they do not have a dropped center (where the tire bead goes to allow you to work it over the rim for instillation or removal). Again, wheels split in the very middle should be avoided, don’t even try to put air in one that is low.

Grigg

Rust master the ones John and griggs shows are the widow makers. I have them on my 65 C-50 wrecker. Just like you I live in mass. (Greenfield ). My son is a mass certified vehicle inspector he says they cant inspect one that has these rims. (safety )He said that they can impound the truck for safety reasons if they wanted too. He doesn. think anybody would BUT they could. I am on the look out for rims also. Oh what a great relaxing hobby we have.

Hello Guys
I've just about decided to sell my truck and get a newer smaller dump because of the widow makers on her, what about cutting out the centers on my wheels and welding into a one piece or any other wheel that I could use my tires on ( i have a really good set or radial on the back

Hey there 1960C60Viking,

I wouldn't go to those extremes. I have a '59 Viking, mine came with 19.5 rims already on it. I have heard others mention that 22.5 rims are also available. If I needed wheels, that is what I would search for, as the 19.5's seem a little small. They don't fill up the wheel wells enough, (look kinda wimpy).

My older trucks have the 20" locking ring type which I plan on keeping, as long as they are not too badly rusted on the inside.

It's obviously your decision, but the newer trucks don't have nearly as much character, (the older ones are just too darn cool).

OK, now I'll get down off of my soap box.

John

1960C60Viking,

What lug pattern do you have? If you have the six lug 20" wheels you need to find a set of 22.5" tubeless wheels. A 8.25 x 20 tire is the same height/size as a 9.00 x 22.5 and a 9.00 x 20 is the same height/size as a 10.00 x 22.5. These 22.5 six lug wheels were very popular on school buses up into the 1980's, maybe into the early 90's. A friend got me three of them for free because the school district he works for no longer had any busses that used that style wheel...you just need to look around. I run 22.5 on all of my trucks...I like tubeless and radials. The trucks ride and track better with radials also!

Don't give up without a fight!

Mike B

Hey Mike -- I'd sure like to know where all these popular school buses went -- I've been calling around (so far to So MD Auto Parts, Brandywine trucks and Kessler's. That number to the wrecking yard on the Eastern Shore came up disconnected) and I either have to painfully explain to 10 different people what the heck I'm talking about (and invariably end up with "Naw, ain't got none of them here. click") or they know what I'm talking about but "ain't seen no busses with them tares in years."

The best part is when the crackhead answering the phone calls me "Hon" and wants to know what kind of truck I have. So when I give up and tell her so we can move forward, she ends it with "We ain't got nothin that old. Sorry hon. click."

Lottsa fun, this tin hunting.

John

Mike B
I have the 10 hole 8 3/4 bolt circle 6.25 bore hub piloted wheels and havent seen anything newer that I could use , I have been thinking about and any one on here know if this is possable to get the hubs and wheels for a bud wheel set up I have the torsion front end so ??????, and in the rear does the whole rear have to be changed or just the hub and wheels?

To answer a few of the most recent post I'll refer y'all back to an earlier one (from this very thread), quoted here for your convenience:


While I can't click on the link for you, I can give you directions once you do...

10 lug 8.75" circle hub piloted are on Page 12

6 lug stud piloted are on Page 18

Give it a try,
Grigg

from what Ive been told the cost to replace all 6 wheels with new tires and wheels is around the 3 grand mark and I cant see putting that much money in a truck this old as cash is tight for me

If you take the accuride part numbers to the junk yard they may be able to help. I believe they are actually stamped on each wheel, at least the ones I have and checked are.

And just knowing that they are still being made says that the chances of finding them in the junk yard is good.
My local junk yard often has these wheels, several times now I have been there when someone else was buying a set of 6 used 22.5 rims and tires to replace the lock ring type on these older Chevy trucks, mostly the 6 lug, but also some of the 10 lug on 8.75"


The best way to find something at the junk yard is to show up in person and look, or if they won't let you look at least they will look for you while you stand there. It's easy to hang up on the phone, less so if you are on the other side of the counter.

Grigg

I called tucker tire http://www.tuckertire.com/. I spoke to Buddy about buying some new tires. He told me that he had a bunch of used 750X20 tires on rims.

They could probably set you up with some used slip ring rims. There are smarter guys than me out here but I would guess that new ones are probably not to be found.

This rim issue has become a big deal for me, and it appears that a number of others are in the same boat. My 4400's wheels are so rusted that they absolutely have to be replaced, whether they are 'widow makers' or not.

I actually got a quote on tires for my 3800. They said $143 for each tires and $27 for each tube, but they won't mount them. Let's see, $180 per tire/tube, times 7 gives us $1260 for tires for a truck that I paid $775 for.

New 19.5 wheels for the 3800 seem to cost a little more than $200 each. Seven wheels means $1400 before S&H and I still wouldn't have any tires.

My wife has lost hope, but I have not. I've read, in this thread, about places that will practically pay you to haul off nearly new wheels, with nearly new tires already mounted. I also understand that the only way to find places like that is to 'look for them'. Grigg, and several others, have mentioned the problems with trying to do this by telephone, and I suspect that results would be even worse if you send them a letter. If you use the internet to find a place that will distribute your requirement to several salvage yards, you will probably get several responses that say they have exactly what you need, whether it is a left handed framistat, or a truck wheel, but there's never any price or details, just a phone number. So you make the call and you get the same result as you would if you had called without sending the e-mail.

Next, think about why this whole problem exists. Not very many people try to keep old trucks on the road. We're kind of like 1 percenters. Even fewer people try to keep Big Bolts running. If there were thousands of Big Bolters around, things might get easier.

Basically, I haven't given up. I hope I can say the same thing next week, and next year, because I believe that I will be a lesser person if I give up, on anything, ever.

My favorite quotes about situations like this are:

1. If it was easy, anyone could do it.
2. If it is easy, it probably isn't worth doing.

I have a 1950 1 1/2 ton, and I'm looking to replace some rims too. But that's not all I want to do. I can get a Dana 70 front axle out of a 1995-2001? Chevy 3500HD 4x4 truck, and it has the same 10 lug 7-1/4 inch diameter lug pattern, with the 5-1/4 inch bore as the old rims, and the wheels are 19.5 inch with a 5.08 inch dish, 6 inches wide I believe. Pretty close to what my truck already has on it, but these are nice single piece rims.

I'm willing to spend more money on mine, and am considering just buying a whole 3500hd 4x4 truck and using the whole frame/driveline. Not sure yet. If I decide only to put the front suspension/transfer case, the beauty is they make 6.18:1 gears for the Dana 70 to match the back axle already in my truck!

Anyway, if you have a local junkyard, or even a truck trader mag close by, you might be able to find the wheels for a 1995-2001? 3500HD Chevy pretty cheap. There's someone selling these very rims on eBay right now for $100 each I believe. These rims are actually in the Accuride book that Grigg posted, top of the page on page 28 p/n 29667.

jgetti,

The 3500HD front axle is about 10" to wide, each tire will be about 5" more outside, partly outside the fender.

About the Dana 70 front with the 10 lugs, I have seen about two of those in the past 6 years. The two wheel drive versions with the I-beam axle are much easier to find, and still 9" or 10" to wide.

A more suitable front axle as far as steering parts and using the original gear box would be from a Chevy P30 chassis with the I-beam front and 5 lugs, also some of the big vans have the same axle and steering arms.

I believe that the 19.5" wheels with the tallest available tire, 8R19.5, is still to small, about 32". They look great on a 1 ton, but to small on a 1.5 or 2 ton.

You may get some ideas from looking at my pictures on the link below, as I used a 3500HD front axle and a Dana 70HD rear from a P30 under my 48 6400.

Grigg

Do you really think the truck would look goofy with the smaller diameter tires? The set of 8R19.5 tires I was looking at are 33.5 inch diameter. Still smaller than the 35? that is stock, but I thought that would get pretty close. I have a brownie transmission to overdrive the truck, so the slight loss in mph/rpm doesn't bother me.

I saw a guy on eBay that did this very conversion, only to a 56 model. Granted the front fenders are slightly wider on the next series truck, but I thought it looked really sharp. I've honestly always thought that the 47.5-55 1.5 and 2 tons front ends looked way too narrow anyway. With the smaller diameter tires and a bit of a lift for the 4x4 axle, I thought I could get away with the wider 3500HD Dana 70 front axle. Your thoughts?

If a guy is willing to do the work and can get his hands on another set of fenders one could always widen the front end. I have been thinking of doing this to my 56 since I noticed that the twin rear axle TF trucks have wider fenders than the ones with singe rears. As I studied the front fenders I figured it wouldn't be hard to modify a set the same way and it is really hard to see the change. Study the AD body lines and see if this would work on them as well.

The 56 you saw, could those have been 22.5" tubeless wheels from the factory, and not new 19.5" wheels? I have a set of 22.5" wheels on my truck that came from a 56 1.5 ton with the same small 10 lugs we are talking about.

Yes, I personally think that the 19.5 rims and 8R19.5 tires look odd on a 1.5 or 2 ton AD truck.
Here is a picture of 8X19.5 tires on a 1 ton truck, I think they look good, and the fenders on the bigger trucks are bigger, not helping the looks with the same 8R19.5 tires:
[IMG]http://thumb9.webshots.net/t/52/52/3/62/97/484236297lCqQCo_th.jpg[/IMG]
And a picture of a big truck with 19.5 wheels, and I thought they were 8R19.5 tires, but it's been a while and I am not sure now:
[IMG]http://thumb9.webshots.net/t/65/765/7/91/69/2266791690080251109cjiqet_th.jpg[/IMG]
Here is a picture of a big truck with original wheels and tires, I think much better looking than the 19.5 wheels and tires.
[IMG]http://thumb9.webshots.net/t/69/169/7/10/31/2837710310080251109jASNSt_th.jpg[/IMG]

About the wide axle under the narrow truck, this is what it may resemble, and I don't care much for it:
[IMG]http://thumb9.webshots.net/t/68/168/8/86/6/2327886060080251109yMbYyC_th.jpg[/IMG]

Look into narrowing the Dana 70 front, that may work and give you 4x4 with a decent look.

Now you did ask for my thoughts, and not trying to offend anyone, but there they are.
Whatever you do with your truck, so long as you like it, is a great idea. It's your cat, you get to skin it...

Grigg