The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Raising the 235 from the dead!

I own a '50 3100 deluxe cab with a '54 235 engine. It has been in a garage for about 6 years collecting dust and I am attempting to get it running again.
It is converted to a 12-volt system with a resistor on the firewall. I've installed a new coil, wires, plugs, cap, rotor, condensor, and points - I have spark.
I disconnected the fuel tank and I am running the fuel out of a small gas can. Rebuilt the carb (Rochester). It turns over but I cannot get it to fire - no sputter, no kick, nothing.
I’m not sure what to test next or where to turn to. Cold compression test? Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

try a squirt or two off mrvel mystery oil in each cly it will help free up rings and give you some compresion.All the plugs do fire? This may foul a plug. good luck Bill

If your spark is not timed correctly you may not get anything.

I would agree with 4, verify the timing is correct. Did you remove or disturb the distributor? Is it getting fuel to the carb? will fuel pump pull gas from your can? Of course, you've made sure it has plenty of oil, etc. I believe it will start. Good luck.

The first thing is to make sure that you have spark, at # 1, when the ball on the flywheel is at the mark and #1 cylinder is in compression.

Next,I would take a spark plug, rest it on the valve cover and connect #1 wire to it. You should be able to see a good spark while it is turning over.

Next I would pour a few ounces of gas into the carb and turn it over right away. Don't pour gas down while it is turning over, that is extremely dangerous.

The timing is checked on the passanger side of the Truck or right above the Starter. This is IMPORTANT just trust me on this!

Your problem is just like mine. I have just assembled my re built Block and head. I have set the valve timing, the Ignition timing, insured the distributor is installed corectly, static timed points, replaced the coil, points, condenser, cap, and wires. I get a blue flame at the plug. The gas tank has been cleaned and the plugs look wet after trying to start it up. The carb appears to work judging from the fuel pumped using the accelerator pump. I have spun the engine and moved the distributor trying to get it to start and have gotten nowhere. I have also done a compression check, (125 across the board), and felt the suck of the engine through the carb as I cranked the engine. I have used the gas in the carb trick too.

I am pretty much out of ideas right now.

Does anyone think the 25 degree Wisconsin weather has an affect?

Mike E, Since you seem to have fuel, spark, and air it would seem that this might be a timing issue. One possible answer, since your engine was just rebuilt, is that the cam may have been installed 180 degrees out of phase. To check this remove the #1 spark plug and rotate the engine slowly until you feel pressure developing with your finger at the #1 sparkplug hole. Watch the timing hole and you should see the ball on the flywheel line up with the pointer when you are at TDC. The distributor rotor should now be pointing at the #1 position as well. Putting the cam in 180 degrees out of phase is very easy to do. While I was doing my engine rebuild I had the cam in and out of the engine three times as I degreeing the cam and one of the times I installed it 180 degrees out of phase. If I had not been degreeing my cam, I might not have noticed this problem right away.

Thanks for the feedback!

I'll check it out this weekend to see if the #1 spark plug hole has compression at TDC, plus spark at that time as well.

I'm such a newbie...

Cujo8,
Thanks for the tip, I will check this out today sometime. I had this block rebuilt at a well respected place but that doesn't eliminate the posssibility at all. I have been watching the lifters as I played with the distributor and they seem to move when they are supposed to, but I haven't done the thumb trick.

Thanks again, I'll let you know what happens.

Mike

you did watch the rotor buton to see if it is turning clockwise or counter clockwise and put pulg wires on right.Set points to book . good luck Bill

Put a jumper wire from the pos side of the battery to the coil(opposite side of the wire going to the dist.) and see if it starts.

Cujo et al;

I have still not heard my engine run. I even started over, looking at all the timing and confirming each system. I can get a short sputter after pouring gas into the carb, then nothing. My plugs seem to be very wet after this process. I have also checked each plug for spark and am now getting blue flame at each. Could this be a flooding problem? I adjusted the float drop some time ago before the rebuild and cleaned the carb repeatedly prior to getting the tank flushed. I know there is fuel in the float bowl, is there a passage that could be causing a flooding or starving problem?

Another trick I heard is to hook up the timing light and confirm the distributor position.

Mike

MikeE, Are the sparkplugs new? I have seen times where I thought the plugs were fine and I saw spark, but the engine was still hard to start. I installed new plugs and the engine now started fine. I gave up on trying to clean sparkplugs to save money years ago. Have you tried spraying starting fluid down the carb w/ the throttle valve open? If it is a fuel delivery problem and the engine is not flooded it should run on the starting fluid or gas poured down the carb and then die when what you added has run out. You appear to be getting gas, so I still think it is either timing or spark. I know you say you are getting spark, but maybe it is not a strong enough spark. Do you have another coil you could try? Maybe another distributor to try as well?

Cujo8;

The plugs are old. I tried a different coil,have not tried starting fluid, only gas. Your description of running out of fuel sounds exactly like what is happening. I decided to take a break on this for today, mainly because it is snowing but my next step is to look closely at the distributor and then tead down the carb again to check the float drop and blow out the passages. I will also spring for a new set of plugs.

Thanks for your help, it is keeping me from going around the bend on this one. The two other engines I re built, both 216's, fired with no problems and ran great. This one is fighting me all the way.

Mike

Truckernix, Frank50, Brian Moore, 4onthefloor and anyone else that I may have missed - Many thanks to your suggestions. I finally got the engine to turn over and it's running fairly well.

Your patience is greatly appreciated as I am sure many of the questions, like mine, are repeated from time to time yet you take the time to read and respond.

Now, on to the brakes!

Bruce;

What did you do to make it run? Mine is still Deadlined!

MikeE:

1. Performed all the checks to ensure that I was getting spark to all the plugs.
2. Removed #1 spark plug, removed dist. cap., loosened distributor lockdown screw.
3. Using remote starter, noted when compression hit #1 plug hole, noted rotor location when this happened.
4. Set plug wires accordingly 1,5,3,6,2,4
5. Rechecked point gap.
6. Put dist. cap on, #1 spark plug back.
7. Using remote starter, engaged starter
8. Nothing happened
8. Slowly rotated distributor clockwise,and eventually it fired.

Now why that worked I don't know. If someone can tell me why, it would give me a better understanding of the ignition system/distributor.

That is an outstanding checklist of what to do. Did you adjust the valves in this too?

There are some hints of progress that sometimes occur, in the process of getting it started:

If, when you are turning it over, it starts to pick up speed, even if you don't actually hear it firing, you are very close to success.

Sometimes it will fire and it sounds like a muffled thump. This is also a sign that good things are happening.

Other Hints:
Sometimes the starter can draw quite a lot of current and this draws the voltage down quite a bit. The end result is the spark is affected. You can power the coil from a different source, by disconnecting the ignition feed from the dash and connecting directly to something like a battery charger.This will give you the hottest possible spark all the time, regardless of the starter draw.

The spark you see in free air is not the same as the one in the motor. Inside the motor, you have a very dense mixture of air and fuel at a high pressure, and it is much more difficult for the spark to jump. Old plugs can definitely fail because of this.

MikeE: I did not adjust the valves during this process.

As Truckernix stated, you may have to look for little signs of progress.

After I got everything put back together and before it actually turned over, I finally noticed a small and faint backfire in the carb. That's when the light came on and then I started to rotate the loose distributor while engaging the starter. I know this may not be correct method and it may be dangerous but it worked for me.

Bruce,
Thanks for the update and encouragement. I have been too busy the last couple days to try again, but I never quit.

Truckernix,

Your description of the firing inside the cylinder makes a lot of sense. What brand and number plugs do you use? I am using the ones that came with the engine and haven't gone looking for a new set yet.

Bruce,

It worked because you didn't have it timed right to begin with.

I didn't see anything in your check list concerning static timing. You may have the dist installed one tooth off or the timing gear may have jumped a cog, but my guess is that static timing was off.

Don't use the remote starter to find top dead center, it is too hard to control. Turn the fan by hand with all plugs out and it is easy.

It's pretty easy to install the dist gear teeth into the cam gear so that the dist cannot be moved enough to set the timing right.

Of course the timing gears can't skip a cog, I was thinking of timing chains. Obviously these old guys have gears or at least the last one I overhauled did.