The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Did they once make long stroke 4's?

Like many of you, I respect simpler working engines and love inlines, carbureted not injected, and relatively longer stroke ("undersquare"?).

Meanwhile in newer small trucks like the GM S-series ones, you could do a lot of light utility flittin around with a 2.5liter 4 cylinder coupled to a 5spd, though that's a relatively higher rev'ing semimodern engine.

Put those 2 items together: how far back do we have to go to find a large-ish, relatively long stroke 4 cylinder in a truck? After this first occurred to me I thought of the Jeep flathead 4s, but what about other makes, especially GM? What did they have before the 216? Any 4's? Jus'wonderin.

Gmsea, I don't know if they ever had 4cyl engines in the old trucks ( would imagine so) but not sure. However in the early 60's Chevy had a 4 cyl engine in the Chevy II and Nova. I think up till 1970 you could still get one in a Nova, they ran ok for what it was, A grocery getter.

Tommy

Now, Tommy, was a WW2 Jeep a "grocery-getter"? Somewhere I have a link for hopping up 2.5 liter "Iron Dukes". I wonder if there is an optional heavier flywheel for them that might do something for torque? I almost prefaced my original question by saying this is not for you "hotrodders."

If you want to count the Corvair pickup as a truck, they had a 4 cylinder air-cooled engine. I was thinking the early Chevy trucks had a 4 banger.

GMSea

Chevy had a 4 cylinder in the Chevy 2/ Nova. The Post Office bought some in northern Indiana (69 or 70) with non shifting Powerglides that were suposed to prevent tire spin on winter roads. The things were gutless and we had to get a running start to get them up the ramp into the service dept. at Chevy dealer I worked at.

Judd

The 4 cylinder Iron Duke was used in a variety of GM vehicles and changed several times.The early ones have both the exhaust and intake on the same side, but the ones after 1980 or so have a cross flow head. The ones found in the S-10 are probably the best of the bunch.They are very popular in 2.5 liter racing classes in boats and midget racers.The later ones are fairly rugged units. The block and head is a slightly different design for rear or front drive applications.The front drive engines had the poor rep for cracked heads.Hi po parts are reasonably available, often listed for Pontiac rather than Chevy.The Iron duke is a short stroke design, with a 4 inch bore and a 3 inch stroke. All 4 cylinder auto engines made in the 10 years have longer strokes than the bore is wide. Generally in the 3.5 inch range. That also includes 8000 rpm Honda engines. RPM limits on longer strokes are not a design problem any more. The engines use longer strokes for better crankshaft leverage,The piston lingers longer at TDC allowing a better filling of the cylinder and the smaller piston head reduces emissions and the cylinder seal is improved.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Tony ]

chevy made a 153 CID 4 banger between 1963-65 for trucks. It produced 90HP@4000RPM. GMC made two 153's between 1963-65; a 75HP@4000, and a 90HP@4000.

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: gmcfan ]

I know it's not a "truck" engine, but don't forget the T-4 from the early sixties Pontiac Tempest. It was half of a 389, which was 3.75" stroke. Crossflow head....... . Not a great engine overall, but an interesting concept to "morph" another design to get a desired result. Just look at the Chevy 4.3 V6. Just a 350 with the front two cylinders knocked off .

I know this doesn't count but the oldest truck motor I have is from a De Dion Bus It's 46mm X
156mm stroke 1908 or there abouts
Stuff was taxed on bore size!!!
One more thing....There is no pressure plate
You keep you foot on the peddle to keep the clutch grabbin'

Fred, Corvairs have 6 cylinders. 80HP 140CID in 60; 145CID, 80HP to the 150HP Turbo Spyder from 61-64; 164CID, 95HP to the 180HP Turbo Corsa 65-69 (66 last year for the turbo). A very nice car, well ahead of it's time, and a blast to drive. But we'll go to the Corvair page for more of this.

Like many others have said Chevy had a 4
cylinder from 62-70. I don't think they ever
used them in pickup trucks, only the Handi-
van. Chevy pickups before 1929 used 196 ci
four cylinders, Model T and A Fords of
course. Jeep as mentioned above had the 134
ci in L-head and F-head. International used
a four cylinder made by using on half of a
345ci V-8 engine. Really isn't any modern
long stroke four I can think of.

The International 4 cylinder was half a
392 ci V-8.

GMC248
A friend of mine in high school had a 62 or 63 Lemans with that 4 cylinder it had 421 super duty head with AFB 4 barrel bucket seats and 4 speed transaxel. He bought it used but as far as we knew it came from the factory that way.
Judd

Mercruiser sold a stroked version of the Chevy II motor. I believe it was rated at 145hp with a Holley two barrel. Haunt marine centers specializing in repair and you should be able to find one.

A check through Mercruiser sites finds that the Chevy II engine was sroked to 181 cubic inches, and rated up to 165 horsepower. The site also shows a 181 cid engines sold through 1999.

Greybeard, are you saying these engines are pretty commonly available? And it would fit right in to whereever the 2.5 liter Iron Duke is? ... and meanwhile how can this animal even exist ... I thought Mercruisers were Mercury ... why would they fool with a GM engine and not a F**d 2300 or something like that?

All very intriguing, and yes, I think it might have Stovebolt implications ... How do the vehicle weights compare for a short wheelbase Art Deco, and an S-10? Yeh, I know this thinking is treason, blasphemy, etc, and if I had a 235 readily available I would probably go that route first; but then again, my nickname used to be "Oddward."

Well, once again my ignorance is broadcast to the universe. Went to the Mercruiser site and saw familiar GM engines all over the place: 4.3 V-6s, 350 and 454. I guess "Mer" is just French for sea, and it doesn't have to be anything about Mercury. Lastly, I had asked about what GM truck engines came before the 216 ... then I found Barry Weeks' tech tip note on the 194 and 207 of the '20s and '30s, before the 216 came along in '37. Thanks, folks, for the info.

GMSea,

Well, if'n you want to go all the way back to the Roaring Twenties, GMC's answer to the AC Mack "Bulldog" was the "Big Brute", which had a huge 4 cyl, long stroker. (Will have to do some "digging" to find out vital statistics)

Most trucks back then were either based on car chassis (**** , Chevy, Dodge Bros.) or they were BIG Trucks (Mack, Republic, Fageol,GMC, and so on). Up until the '20s, most trucks had four cyl engines; by the mid-'20s, medium duty trucks began to appear (REO's Speedwagon, and IHC's "Six-Speed Special"), sporting sixes, and the big boys also began to change over to sixes as well.

Engines for the bigger trucks were often bought from jobbers such as Buda, Continental, Herschel-Spillman,Lycoming, Waukesha, and some others.

Mack made their last four cylinders in the early '40s, with the model FN: a "C"-cab, chain drive heavy-duty buggy that was an anachronism even when new.(speaking of anachronisms, Auto-car was still offering heavy trucks with a 2-cyl. engine located under the seat into the '20s!)
**** offered a four cylinder between 1940 & '42 in their trucks- essentially the same as the **** -Ferguson 9-N tractor engine- all 40 hp of it!
The Divco Milk truck, Stutz Pack-Age-Car, IHC Metro-Van and White-Horse delivery
trucks also used various "undersquare" fours.

In terms of engine ancestry, the "in-line" four appeared around 1900, and has never entirely left the scene;even after it lost favor as a car powerplant, it still had a place as an industrial & agricultural power plant.

Well, I could keep going, but this is probably enough to chew on for a while. :rolleyes:

Frank

PS: Everything was "long-stroke" until the mid-fifties ! (Except for some racing engines)

[ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: Frank54 ]

The GM 3.0 liter (181 ci sounds about right)four is offered as an "industrial" and "marine" engine. For specs and photos, go to gmpowertrain.com. I'm not sure what it may share in common with the "Iron Duke" 2.5 liter. They only sell to OEM accounts, but I would think you could buy one from Mercury or one of the industrial resellers, if you really wanted one.

Be prepared to use your metric/SAE converter.

As far as I know, Mercruiser engines have been GM/Chevy products since at least the 70's. They may have used others that I'm not familiar with. Maybe some of you boaters can speak to that topic.

---> Bill

GMsea, here in Brazil GM never offered us a V8, but did some iline 4 and six. The first ones were the 261, that were around up to 1976, in trucks and PU trucks. Also, from 1968 on they started producing an Opel Rekord with US powerplants, the 153 from the Novas and 230 and 250. Later we had a 151, it was a 153 with a 4" bore and 3" stroke, but using a 6.000" rod. It was much smoother than the 153. Also got better lileage and more power. In 1990, GM did some modifications on the 151 and the 250, from that year on they both have a 1 piece rear main seal, (the seal is the same as the ones used on Mk V 502 and 454 big block engines)and the 250 started using the 6.000' rod. So they became even more pleasant, the ultra short piston with thinner rings offering the possibility of dropping a 292 crank in a 250 block using normal parts.
The 181 is a cool engine, and in a small car or truck may provide a nice job. It's basically a 153/151 block, but has 1 piece rear main seal, the longer stroke 3,58" crank uses the same mains at 2.300", but the rod is 2.100", the bore is 4".The head is way different in the casting, has raised runners floors, and there is a wall all the way to the valves, not a commom plennun like the others inline chevies. I think that if properly modified a 181 may became an interesting engine.

Alexandre Garcia

GMSea,

I did my homework: the bore and stroke on the GMC "Big Brute" four was 4-1/2" x 6-1/2"

I'd say that's a "long-stroke" four!

Great information, Alexandre! I love hearing about the "badge engineering" and what the auto makers produce in other countries.

I didn't realize until a couple of years ago that VW Beetles were still being made!

---> Bill

Hi, Locobreath,

In fact only the Kombi(VW bus) is being produced today, the sedan is gone since 94 if i'm not mistaken, and it was the same old desing, no IRS.
But the GM 250 is well and alive till today. And it has a multi point efi, distributorless ignition, 168 horses. It uses a long intake manifold that goes over the valve cover and looks pretty different from the old 250 we are used to see.
The performance kiddos here have the 250 as a good friend, the engine is considered reliable and powerful, and GM even used to sponsor a road race series using this engines as powerplants till 1999, now they switched to 350V8 power.

I find it interesting that the 153 CID L4, the 230 CID L6 and the 307 CID V8 all used the same bore and stroke at 3.875" Bore and 3.25" stroke. I wonder how many of the parts were interchangeable?

Alexandre;
Let's see, 250 with 6 in. Rods, MPI, improved rear main seal, distributerless ignition. Sounds great to me! Any idea if they used roller style cams like most all modern engines do? Sounds like 160 net HP is a little low. My 4.3 L V-6 is rated 190 Net HP.

Darrell

The reference I found on the present 181 cid four showed it to have a 4" bore, 3.6" stroke, and 6" rods. I can only believe this engine is based on the iron duke.

GMC Dude,
Although they all share the same bore, the 153 and the 230 uses the same pistons as the 283, all these trhee engines shares the same compression height. The 250 goes togheter with the 307. Other common parts are the rod bearings for the 153, 230 250 and the smaller 194 and all the small v8 up to 1967. They all have 2.000 std dia. crankshaft rod pins. Also they share the lifters. Of course the 3 7/8 rings also work. Nothing else.
I can say also that the 292 L6 uses the same lifters as the V8, but rod bearings are the same as the small blocks 67 and up, 2.100 crankpin. The 292 at least here in Brazil have a thicker ring pack, 3/32 type, and thereoff the 3 7/8 rings out of a V8 will not fit. Valves from a V8 will vork also, and if You care to install 1.94 intake valves from a 350 in a L6 head You can have some sucsess. 2.02 is too big and will be too close to the cilinder wall, hurting airflow.

Darrel,
The Brazilian 250 EFI uses flat tappets. The cam is ground on the old 849 core, and has a tighter LDA, I'd like to see them using the 882 core, that allows a wider LDA, in a way to make use of the 6.000 long rod.

Greybeard,
I never saw a 151 Iron duke in person(or in engine) to enable myself to say anything about it. I really don't know what are the differences between them and the brazilian 151 and the older 153 from a Nova. But I can say for sure that the 181 head is the older style, with both intake and exaust ports on the same side, but the ports are higher than the old style 153 head. And the intake runners are totally divided by a wall, making them 2 separate runners, different from the 153, where we have just a boss around the head bolt and then the ports merge togheter after the boss. Not a good thing. The 181 bore is 4", the stroke is 3,58"(almost 3.6") the crankpins are 2.300" mains and, strange enough but true, the rod pins are 2,100". I'm buing an 181 engine to me soon, it will be just for research, and as long as it happens, I'll post all I can get. I saw the pistons, they are shorter than a 350V8 one, that has the same compression height as the 151 made in Brazil, I have no idea as if the deck height is the same in all these L4 engines, but if the 181 rods 6.000 long the deck must be taller in the 181. If I'm not mistaken, the 118 was offered in the fiero for some time, isn't it true?? and one more thing, how many head bolts on the iron duke??

I think the Fiero came only with the 151 engine and then later the 2.8 V-6 was offered. The 151 engine which was used from 1980 and up in the front wheel drive GM cars, the S10 truck and the Fiero is not really called the Iron Duke, like the 153.The 151 has a cross flow cylinder head at least on the fuel injected models, and a 4 inch bore with a 3 inch stroke.

Alexandre, I checked my Hayne's shop manual, and the 2.5 used in the eighties GM front drives used 10 head bolts. According to a 1974 Chilton manual, the old 153 used 10 head bolts. Hope this helps.

Tony, I always thought the "Iron Duke" moniker was used by Pontiac when they reintroduced the 2.5 l., so as to distinguish it from the extremely lame Vega/Starfire engine. I don't remember the old 153 being called anything but "slow" - Chevy II's with this engine were in danger of being run down by kids on bicycles!

[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: Locobreath ]

[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: Locobreath ]

[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: Locobreath ]

Alexandre, do you have any photographs of GM trucks offered in Brazil, or any of the engine variations? I'd love to see the variety, including the brand names that the vehicles are sold under.

I think someone mentioned much earlier (months) about Mexican Chevy pickups coming with the 292 even now.

---> Bill

Having a fondness for the Chevy II four from my boat racing days, I've been trying to find some answers for the questions that have come up about the 181 engine.

A trip to mercruiserparts.com has just brought up more questions than answers.

The 181 is 4" X 3.6" with six inch rods. As we had never been able to bore a 151 to 4" I assumed the 4" bore was from the "iron duke" family. However the Mercruiser 181 does NOT have a crossflow head. Pictures of the valve cover gasket lead me to think it may be based on the Chevy II.
SO the new questions: How did they get it to 4" bore? Did they raise the deck height to get 3.6" stroke and 6" rods? Could the rods be 4/6 cylinder versions of the 4.3ltr Caprice V8s powder metal 5.94" rods[often called 6"]?

Alexandre; Thanks for the reply.

Greybeard, the only answer I know would be that the block is now made with different castings to allow for the bigger bore. Not really all that hard to do if you are GM.

As for the term Iron Duke, I've thought it has been used for the Pontiac 151 since it was introduced. Some change it to Iron Puke but it did differentiate it from the Vega engine which was 140 CID with an under square 3.5 Bore and 3.625 Stroke.

Darrell

Tony, I asked about the name iron duke just to make sure if it was new desing, although using the look of the old 153, or just a 153 with a different casting to accept 4" bore, like it is in Brazil. I also asked about the bolt number just to see if the iron duke still used 4 bolts aroud each cilinder bore or 5 like the SBC V8. Seems that You can put a 151 cross flow head in an early 153. A friend of mine that is very well informed about cars, numbers of production and stuff like that told me that there was a series os fiero that came out with the 181 cid engine in a effort to offer a better performance than the one obtained with the 2.8V6.
Locobreath I have some really nice pics of some Brazilian only chevy trucks, they are based on U.S. built models of course, but the shhetmetal is way too different. Where do You want me to post them??
The mexican stuff is unknown to me, but here, we have nowadays a truck called Silverado, by the way it is the same that was sold in U.S. till 1 or 2 years ago. And this truck offered 3 engines to choose, 2 diesels, one 4 cilinder that is called maxxion, in fact an old perkins 4-236 with some mods to the injection some 100 hp, a MWM 6.07, 4.2 litters displacement, turbocharged and intercooled with 170 hp, a real nice engine, faster than all the diesels 62. or 6.5 liters GM diesels and much more peasant to drive, but no auto trans, just stick five speed, and a 250 efi, 168 hp. No V6, no V8 whatsoever. Only shortbed, no extra cab, no 4 doors.
Greybeard, I also dealed a lot with boats. In fact I made it as for living, fixed boat engines for more than 16 years, now I'm living 1000 miles away from the sea and some fellows still pack their engines and send then for me to fix here. I fixed skiboats, all V8 powered. Have some pics of the boat you raced??
As to Your questions, ain't the 151 4" bore?
Here in Brazil they are all 4". Yes the 181 does not have a Cross flow head, but I can garatee You that the head flows very well.It is really based on the chevy II 153 head, but is another casting, the runner base is much higher, and it helps a lot the flow, in as much as the smaller gas activitie area in a runner is the base. Just port the upper areas and the bowl above the valve and You're done. Don't know if You're using the cast iron water cooled intake exaust manifold, if so, I see that You'd be better off with the stock one from a 181 than trying to use an earlier one for a 153, as long as there will be a mismatch in the ports.
The 4" bore is obtained with a different cast core than the one found on 153 engines, for sure the 153 is not able to be opened to 4" bore in a safe way. Like it is not wise to try to bore a 307 or later 283 to4" in order to make a 327 or 302. And if the 181 uses a 6"long rod, the block must be taller than the 153, or esle You'd need to have the piston pin into the oil ringland.
The rod is not the same as the 6" long rod of 4.3l V8 because the rod's foot is thinner in a V8 engine. Take for example a rod from a 153, it's almost the same as the one from a 265/283, but the lower part is wider on the inline, it needs to have space for the radii in both sides, in a V8 they ride side by side, so only one wide radii space in the outer side, the inner side rides against each other, so no space for a radii. That's why You should no assemble a 6" rod out of a V8 into a L4.
Darrel, the 140cid Vega engine is somethig really weird, I guess it looks like an 153 but it's very different inside. Maybe using the crank for a stroker based on the 153/151 may be a good idea, but I dunno if it fits or not. A 4" bore and 3.625 stroke ends up more or less 181. Dunno also if it is easy or expensive to get a decent 181 out of a boat in U.S. to justify the hassle of dealing with it.

Alexandre Garcia