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#207949 05/17/2006 1:55 AM
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OK, I ordered my front 6 lug brakes from buffalo today. He told me a 1" bore master cylinder will generate more pressure and stopping power than a larger bore. Is This true? I know a lot of people run the mustang masters which have this set up. i don't plan to use a booster.

#207950 05/17/2006 2:14 AM
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Are you converting to disc front brakes? If so, you may want to reconsider the booster, manual disc brakes do not perform very well on a truck.
To answer your question, if you are converting to a split system then the 1" m/c should be ok.
Essentialy you have 2 1" m/c's, one for the front and one for the rear. If not, then go for a larger m/c, thats what GM did on their larger trucks for more stopping power.


Bill Burmeister
#207951 05/17/2006 3:45 AM
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I'd agree with Bill. Dont make sence that a smaller one would be better than a bigger one. My 47 2 ton uses an 1 1/4" one and school bus chassis and fire trucks used an 1 1/2" one. If it wasnt needed then I'm sure that the factory would have put tiny ones on in the first place.


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#207952 05/17/2006 3:57 AM
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yes I'm converting to disc brakes... should have been more specific.

I don't want to figure out a vacuum line for this because I will be running a multicarb setup and I am concearned about not having enough vacuum.

I figured if everything was proportioned correctly... Master cylinder bore, caliper piston bore, etc a non-powered instalation should function fine.

Most upgrade kits use the gm camaro style callipers. So I wanted to cross reference the bores on both power and mechanical breaking systems.

#207953 05/17/2006 4:05 AM
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A smaller bore does create more pressure. Manual brakes shouldn't be a problem just don't forget your residual valves in the front and back lines (10 and 2 lbs respectively). I didn't notice if you were going to a dual master or two master's side by side, which is common in a race car.

By the way, I have a dual carb set up with a 3/4 cam and use a dual action fuel pump, dual diapraghm 7" booster, dual master and put a vaccum cannister in the brake line with a check valve and it all works fine. The vaccum cannister I got from Summit was $25. With the A/C dual action fuel pump there is plenty of vaccum and the dual diaphragm master requires less than a single to work.


'51 Chevy 1/2 ton w/'62 261, HEI, offy, fentons, dual carter/webbers, t-5 & 12 bolt posi
#207954 05/17/2006 4:11 AM
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Yes, a smaller bore will generate more stopping power per lb of force applied on the pedal. But, the tradeoff is more pedal travel to move the pads a given amount. The size of the wheel cylinders is what determines the amount of fluid needed to apply the brakes. Hydraulic 'leverage' is all about pounds per square inch, not just lbs or volume. Your pedal pressure spread over a larger piston results in lower PSI. I think you will be happy with an unboosted system. In the early days of disk brakes they were only found on sports cars and almost non were boosted.

#207955 05/17/2006 4:44 AM
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NM51 you have a lot of duals! I was planning on running a dual master... preferably one that has the lines exit on the left side. Think I saw a post about one somwhere on this site.

I never heard of the 2 masters side by side. guess it makes sence fof safety... as long as the linkage doesn't fail.

If I look at a disc/ drum cylinder, will it already have the correct residual valves? If I run discs in the back and use the cadillac calliper with the cable break does that 2 lbs residual still remain true? I think the lower residual pressure is because of the return springs, but still confused about that.

#207956 05/17/2006 4:04 PM
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You guys are right about the smaller m/c, I forgot about Pascal's law on hydraulics when I posted. The rsidual valves are usually contained in tha proportioning valve assembly, the return
spring on the caliper is only for the parking brake. If you use GM rear calipers make sure that you use the parking brake regularly, this is how they are adjusted and it also keeps the piston from sticking in the bore. I've seen and
replaced many of these because of that reason.


Bill Burmeister
#207957 05/17/2006 6:33 PM
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Race cars often have three (3) master cylinders side by side on the firewall- front brakes and back brakes connected with an adjustable bar connecting the brake pedal arm to the two master cylinder rods, and the third one for a hydraulic clutch. As the gas tank gets empty the driver adjusts the bar and proportioning valve to compensate for less weight in the rear.

I bought a booster and master kit w/mounting bracket, combination valve and residual valves from CPP. Next time I'll probably assemble the stuff myself and save a few bucks, but this time I decided it was worth an extra hundred for someone esle to do it.

There are different dual master cylinders and combination valves: drum/drum, disc/drum, disc/disc.

The purpose of the dual master is to have two circuits, front and back, so that if you spring a leak in a brake line you don't lose all your brakes.

The purpose of a dual diaphram booster is to get more boost for less vacuum, which is what you need with an engine with a 3/4 cam, deisel engines and smaller ones too, like 4 bangers, 'cause they produce less vacuum. So, if you look at a mustang II brake booster, for example, it'll probably be dual diaphragm. In these trucks to keep the stock pedal you need to mount the booster on the frame rail where the original master was, which means you need a smaller diameter booster- 7" dual diapraghm is about as good as you get.

Isusu has an alternator with a vacuum pump mounted to the back of it that they use in their diesel trucks. If I have problems with my set up I'll swap my delco 10si for one of those, since the mounts are the same. Here's one on ebay for $150 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-...QQitemZ8065888469QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

There are three valves necessary in a brake system- metering valve, proporting valve and residual valves.

The metering valve is also known as a hold off valve, it delays the pressure to the front brakes a smidge when you step on the pedal.

The residual valves are in-line pressure valves retain a minimum brake line pressure to help eliminate excessive pedal travel in both disc and drum brake systems. The two pound valve is used in disc brake applications where the master cylinder is mounted below the horizontal plane of the calipers and fluid drain back occurs from gravity and vibration, thereby causing excessive caliper piston retraction and a longer brake pedal stroke. The minimal two pound residual pressure prevents fluid from flowing back without causing the brakes to drag. With drum brakes, a ten pound valve is used to compensate for return spring tension in the drums.

The proportioning valve regulates pressure in the rear brake line- You can buy screw type or lever-type adjustible proporting valves to set the right amount of pressure for your system. The proportioning valve does not contain residual valves.

A combination valve does three things usually: It is a proportioning valve, metering valve and sensor for low pressure you can hook a warning light up to. The compbination valve does not contain residual valves.

The last thing that comes to mind with boosted brakes is to use a filter in the vacuum line to the booster to keep fumes from the engine away from the sensitive booster diapragms. NAPA has them on blister cards and so do many FLAPS in their HELP parts line.


'51 Chevy 1/2 ton w/'62 261, HEI, offy, fentons, dual carter/webbers, t-5 & 12 bolt posi
#207958 05/17/2006 8:10 PM
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you may want to read http://www.ecihotrodbrakes.com/brake_facts.html

2 lbs for disc
10 lbs for drum

#207959 05/17/2006 10:16 PM
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4.3- thanks for the heads up, I edited my post to correct my mix up.


'51 Chevy 1/2 ton w/'62 261, HEI, offy, fentons, dual carter/webbers, t-5 & 12 bolt posi

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