The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop Apache Sniper?

I inherited my dad's Apache. In the 1980s, we put a 350 in it with HEI ignition. Before he died, he stripped the entire wiring harness, computer, TBI, and all of the accessories off of a 1987 Chevy truck and grafted them onto the Apache. The problem is that he died before he finished, and the truck is not running properly. I am familiar with the 87 computer system because I worked for Dad at his garage during that era and have a fair amount of experience troubleshooting and repairing it. I have spent a lot of time and money trying to get it to run right. I have questioned the logic of my trying to get a 38-year-old ignition and fuel system to work on a 50-year-old engine in a 67-year-old truck. I have no way of knowing if or how the 87 was running when it was junked. So I am wondering if I should go all the way back to carburetor and HEI, or do I install a modern fuel and ignition system. A carburetor and HEI would be a cheaper and quicker option, but it has been 35 years since I touched a carburetor. I have looked at Aces and Holley, and I am one click away from buying the Sniper system. It seems like overkill because this is only going to be a weekend driver. It will not be a show truck, and you will never catch me intentionally burning rubber.

Does anyone have any suggestions based on their experience? I have seen that Holley seems to be more user-friendly, but Aces is more tunable. I would prefer user-friendly. Any other options out there?

Thanks
curtis

thats the biggest mistake I see people make. trying to get an old truck to speak a new language.
a computer system in an apache? edelbrock and HEI will do

I believe we crossed the language barrier about 40 years ago when we put the fiber optic light indicators from a Cadillac on it. (since removed)

Curtis, the Chevy 350 is the most aftermarket supported engine ever made. It's also about the simplest to get working correctly.

Get rid of all the computerized crap that's 40 years obsolete and unsupported and buy a 4 bbl Edelbrock carburetor and stock intake manifold. Install an HEI dizzy and be done with it. No muss, no fuss.

Verify that the engine isn't shot first. Compression tests, etc.

Thanks. Engine was rebuilt when he put the TBI on it. It has less than 100 miles on it. I am not totally opposed to carburetors. I have carburetor tools in my toolbox. I know they don't like sitting a lot which this one does .

Different opinion on the carburetor:

Find an original 350 Chevrolet cast iron intake, and an original used Rochester Q-Jet from the years 1968~1974. Rebuilt the Q-Jet.

Take the wife out to dinner (several times) with the money you saved.

The imitation AFB has only a single advantage over the Q-Jet (it is shiny). Well, it also impresses the 16-year-olds at the car show.

Initial cost, driveability, fuel economy, power, and reliability ALL are wins for the Q-Jet.

Jon

I removed all the tbi from the ‘92 454 I installed in my 66 C10. Went with Edelbrock dual plane intake & AVS2 carb with small cap distributor. Works very well. But others seem to like the Sniper, especially the latest version. My setup took no special tuning. Just decide on how much fuel pressure & initial timing for the distributor

Carbking, I was going to suggest the Q Jet because I think its the greatest carburetor ever built. I didn't, though because so many people are afraid of them that they stop listening when they hear the word.

Thanks. I don't trust my rusty rebuild skills, and that carburetor is still 50 years old. I hesitate to put more old parts on the truck.

There are shops that do a good job rebuilding Q Jets.

Sage advice!

I am also one of those that favors factory stock, although I do have to say that the Edelbrock Performer manifold and cam does add a nice crisp power boost. The Q-Jet is a great carb., very accurate and will bolt on directly to the Performer manifold. All of my GM trucks that I drove from '72 to 2000 had Q-jets, never had a complaint with them. My '78 Vette still sports the original Q-Jet and runs great, I use Sta-Bil in the tank cuz the car doesn't see many miles, last time I put a kit in the carb was 22 years ago, I can start and drive it any time.

QUOTE "Thanks. I don't trust my rusty rebuild skills, and that carburetor is still 50 years old. I hesitate to put more old parts on the truck." END QUOTE

So am I and then some

Seriously, the Q-Jet is NOT difficult to rebuild. Get a copy of the Cliff Ruggles book; and read the book cover to cover. Now read it again; and you are ready to start. If you should have an issue, several folks here can, and will, help.

Jon

Just about any carburetor will beat an Edelbrock- - - - -including squeezing a gasoline-soaked rag over the intake manifold! On a dyno run of a MOPAR 440 pull truck engine I built, I got 714 HP at 6500 RPM from a single QJ for a 455 Buick engine, with a minimum of modifications.
LOL!
Jerry

On the opposite side of the discussion, for an occasional weekend warrior truck, I think the sniper is an excellent option.

I put one on the 283 in my 58 and I have been quite pleased with it. It is not as good as the LS that almost went in instead, but it is much better than any carb I have had the displeasure of dealing with.

I respect Carbking and HRL and their experiences with 70+ years of carbs, but as someone who grew up fighting with them and never had them quite work right, the Sniper is a simple and fast solution.

I put it on, drove it for about a month, then parked it for 6 months due to winter and family issues. When I went back, it started on the first key turn. No pumping the pedal, no hard cranking, no worries about varnish in the bowls or float levels or anything.

It just works.

Yes, it is a significantly more expensive option, but on the scale of old truck parts it is not insane. The ability to spend my time working on the parts of the truck I am more interested in and not have to worry about it sitting or adjusting for altitude on road trips was worth it to me.

Thanks for the replies. Y'all are giving me more to consider. I was already dreading the vacuum advance on the HEI distributor, but I almost choked when I pulled up a picture and saw the black coil housing and vacuum pull off the side of a quadrajet. At least the one I saw did not have an MC solenoid on top of it. I believe I do have a manual choke cable in the spare parts box.


Dad rebuilt hundreds of carburetors in his life. I rebuilt some, but most of my experience was tearing them down and putting them in the cleaner. Holley carburators were made in my hometown. I am guessing Dad went with TBI because he was tired of carburetors.


I guess another way to look at it is parts are still available for OEM carburators and distributors, but I wonder how long Holley sniper parts will be available.

TBI was a temporary solution to government regulations that threatened to put the auto manufacturers at an extreme disadvantage when totally unrealistic emissions and fuel economy standards got mandated by bureaucrats with no understanding whatsoever about engine and fuel system design. At best, those systems gave the manufacturers a little breathing room while they developed reliable sequential port injection systems and the computer controls to make them work. They were neither good carburetors, or fuel injection systems- - - - -just a "half-donkey" combination of both. I just happened to be getting started in the automotive education business about that time, and the factory schools I attended to be able to teach entry level skills to beginners in the auto repair trade gave me a pretty good insight into just how primitive TBI was- - - - -and it didn't get much better with age.
Jerry

I must disagree with the half-donkey. It was an iterative step. It was better than a carburetor but not as good as MPFI. Most technologies go through steps. Ignitions went from distributors with points and condensers to HEI to coil packs. Does that make HEI a half donkey technology? Not at all. Now, MC solenoids on carburetors were half donkey.

Jerry and I have butted heads on that question many times. I don't think it is productive to repeat that argument again here, but if you do a search in HiPo you can find a few variations on it.

I will add a warning here that if this discussion does not continue to be polite and helpful, it will go away.

No reason to feed a dead horse.

Your Dad wasn't wrong to put the TBI onto the Chevy. Sounds like he knew the system-it isn't really that complicated-and Chevys with TBIs were a dime a dozen in any wrecking yard. That was back when you could still routinely walk into a wrecking yard without paying admission and signing a waiver.. but anyway..

I've done it the old way with jets, metering valves, needles and springs. I've made the Edelbrock sitting on the 500 Cadillac in this bus sing the beautiful song of its people while the big V8 pulled this bus up any grade I tried on half throttle. Not at all saying that carb isn't a viable option. But...

Now there's the modern way. Just dial it in on the tablet that comes with the EFI system. No advance weights, no busted vacuum cans, frozen distributor advance plates, ruptured mechanical fuel pump diaphragms filling the crankcase with gas.

I've done it the old way and enjoyed my old carbureted cars. However, nowadays you can tune it with a laptop, and I'll take building a wiring harness and plumbing in high pressure fuel lines all day long over the old way. Only gotta do that wiring job once.

My free advice, that's worth every penny.. ensure that TBI system is grounded-sensors, ECU, everything-to one single bolt that's a short distance from the battery negative terminal. Then run it. It'll last forever.

The old TBI system also has the advantage of relative simplicity in that it's got no VATS to delete, only the one O2 sensor to worry about (and it doesn't even need pre-heat wired into it) and if you'd like more CFM, find the TBI off a 454.

Good times!

Having a premade wiring harness from the '87 Chevy made installing everything much easier for him. Dad left great wiring diagrams and even some "to-do" lists, but he didn't have a chance to finish. But the harness is old. I have already had to repair three wires where they broke or the connectors disintegrated. Someone hooked the distributor wire to the overdrive's governor, which caused the engine to quit when it went over 25MPH. That caused a lot of backfiring while I tried to figure that out. It also probably explains why the injector's electrical connectors are slightly melted. (not sure if dad accidentally did that or one of his friends who tried to get it going before he died.) And if I go with a carburetor and HEI, I will have to make a new wiring harness and make provisions for the fuel pump, which I believe is currently controlled by the ECM. (plus replace the fuel pump with a lower PSI or install a regulator) So either way, there is going to be work to be done. An aftermarket TBI system has all of that bundled. But it is expensive.

Thanks for the advice

I decided to go with the sniper. Tore it down this weekend and spent quite a bit of time sorting the old computer wires and sensors so I can remove them. Dad modified the throttle linkage for the GM TBI, so it looks like I will have to order new linkage for the Holley TBI. GM TBI originally used a cable and pulled from the bottom, where the carburetors (and it looks like the Holley sniper) pushed from the top.

I don't have a picture on me at the moment, but my sniper is set up with a cable pulling.

I am about 80% sure it is pulling from the top, but I can't swear to it.

I will try and remember to get a pic after work tonight.

Mine pulls from the top.