The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay Preparing for Engine Start...Will These Parts Work?

Trying to assess what parts that came with my project truck will actually work.

From the casting dates it seems that both the block and the head were manufactured in November of 1953 for the 1954 model year. The serial number indicates that it is 235ci intended for an automobile with an automatic transmission.

The distributor that came with the project is a Model 1112362, with a serial number of 2K30. My impression from what I have read on the web, is that this distributor may work but isn’t optimal for this engine.

The coil is printed with “12V” and “Use Only with External Resistor” (The last time I dealt with wiring a car was in 1968 and I used a ballast resistor. But I am reading that there are resistor wires that can be used between the distributor and the coil. Is the one in the photo of the distributor that I have, a resistor wire?)

The starter that is on the engine is stamped with the number 1107634 which appears to be a 12V unit based on internet information about the 1107634 part number. Is there a simple way to ensure that the starter and the flywheel agree with each other? How does one check that?

The engine came to me with a Delco-Remy alternator that indicates it is for 12V, negative ground.

Thanks! I need all the help I can get here!

Your distributor is a "short cap" version that was retired in 1953 or 54 (I don't remember which). I'll bet the 2K20 is a date of manufacture. 2 is 1942 (not likely) or 1952. K is November and 20 is the day of the month.

I'd use a ballast resistor with that coil. Finding a proper resistance wire for it might be hard to do. I doubt the red wire in the picture is a "resistance wire". Besides, a "resistance wire" wouldn't run between the coil and the distributor, it would be between the ignition switch and the coil as will the ballast resistor.

I'd be tempted to replace that coil, given the dent in the side.

Does the stomp switch on the starter have a small electrical terminal on the side? If so, that is where the "bypass the ballast resistor" wire should connect. The other end connects to coil +.

I'm working on a "how to identify 6v and 12v flywheels and starters" tech tip. It hasn't been blessed by the Stovebolt Gods yet, but I could send you what I have if it would help.

Bill,

Attached is a photo of the starter. I don't see a terminal on the side...but I am not sure that I am looking at the correct side...?

Please send me the draft of your tech tip.

Thanks,
Nick

The resistance wire between the ignition switch and the coil that was used beginning in the early 1970s was about 12 feet long, and doubled back on itself a couple of times inside the wiring harness. It had to be that long to drop enough voltage to be effective. It was a shiny, fairly stiff piece of nickel/chrome wire with fiberglass insulation to protect the other wires in the harness from the heat it developed. Using a ceramic ballast resistor is a much better choice.

The distributor with the tall cap and rotor was also designed to handle the increased voltage the 12v coil was capable of creating, particularly if a spark plug wire open circuited or a wire fell off a plug. That distributor came out in mid year 1955 with the 12V electrical system. The short cap and rotor could jump a spark from the rotor tip to the distributor housing in that situation. The design of the housing will not allow a tall cap and rotor to be used on a 6V distributor- - - -the height of the shaft above the breaker plate is incorrect.

Here is the correct starter switch- - - -Rock Auto calls it a "solenoid"- - - -it's not!

www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=445442&cc=1489472&pt=4188&jsn=635

Jerry

So, I need to put a tall cap distributor on my shopping list.
Is there a demand for the type that I have? Is there hope that I might find someone who wants to trade (or part trade)?
With regard to the ballast resistor, are there specs that I should know about? I see prices from under $12 to $35. Anything in particular I should look for? (For some reason, I didn't see your link to Rock Auto until AFTER I posted this question about the specs!)
Thanks Jerry!

I do a conversion of OEM stovebolt distributors to the General Motors HEI electronic trigger system which eliminates the points and condenser. With a little bit of creative tinkering it's possible to adapt the later model cap and rotor to the early distributor, but it requires some machining that the average back yard hobbyist isn't able to do. You can usually find the later distributor on E bay with some careful shopping.

Here's a resistor:
www.ebay.com/itm/201100625600?

The distributor part number you need is an 1112403- - - -1955-63
www.ebay.com/itm/186804338038?

Jerry

Jerry,
After looking at the link you posted, I see that it is for the starter switch with a terminal on the side.
In the photo above that shows the starter that is currently mounted on the engine in my project, there is a wire that is apparently connected to the same terminal as the heavy gauge wire that comes from the battery. Is there something else involved with the terminal on the side, or is it just more convenient to have the wire attach to a seperate post?

The small wire attached at the battery cable is the voltage source for the ammeter- - - -it supplies voltage to the ignition switch, headlights, and other circuits. The small terminal on the side of the 12V starter switch is connected downstream of the ballast resistor to supply full battery voltage to the coil during cranking. That wire was not used on 6V ignition systems, since there was no ballast resistor on a 6V coil.
Jerry

To decide what voltage the starter is remove it and measure the diameter of the main shaft, 6 volt will be 14 millimeter diameter, 12 volt will be 12 millimeter. Then count the number of teeth on your flywheel to see which starter you need to use. With a 139 tooth flywheel you can use a 6 volt. If you have 168 teeth you most us a 12 volt starter. You can add a starter switch with a side terminal for a resister to use with a 12 volt system to a 6 volt starter if necessary

Wondering if a replacement coil with an internal resistor would be an option for Nick’s effort?

To correct my previous post with a 139 tooth fly wheel you must use a 6volt starter only! You can use 12 volts to operate that 6volt starter. Sorry for the confusion.

My submitted, but not yet published, tech tip has a much easier method of determining 6v vs. 12v flywheel.

Could.

Advantage is you don't need the bypass circuit.
Disadvantage is less spark while starting the engine.

Nick, As jerry says the wire on the starter mounted switch, that is on the same stud as the battery cable, is how power is tapped into for varios reasons. Like if you added a wire to the battery post to supply power to something. Like Jerry said it is commonly the ammeter feed. In yout "start up wiring you ask for, that wire can be used to supply power to the temporary ign switch bat terminal as mentioned in my No.5 answer to your post 21Jan. Engine Shop post.

As said, for 12V you will need a 12V externally resisted coil. You seem to have that.
You need the side terminal switch Jerry and I linked 21Jan, you need a ballast resistor......I spelled this out and how to wire on your post in "Engine Shop". 21Jan. I realize you are mostly asking about distributor and starter now.

The gurus here say that the 6V starter will work on 12V. If it did not have side terminal, it's probably 6V.

If your distributor is wrong for 12V, I'm sure it is saleable here in the For Sale section. Folks here will have the correct one to sell or trade.
Keep asking questions.

Jerry has posted a new tall distributor clone. https://www.ebay.com/itm/174173998986

Not just NO- - - - -"L- - - -NO!" The whole idea of using a coil that operates efficiently at around 9.5-10 volts is so there will be plenty of spark during a cold start. An internal resistance coil defeats all the engineering GM went to so the engine will start reliably in cold weather when the starter is drawing a lot of current.
Jerry

Jerry,

I appreciate your directness!
It has been so long since I dealt with any of this that what little I knew has faded away.
A ballast resistor and that starter switch are my shopping list!

Thanks!

Bill Hanlon,

I read over your "as yet unpublished" Tech Tip for identifying the flywheel ring gear for 6V vs 12V starters.

It seems that I must have a flywheel setup for a 6V starter, based on measurement of the teeth on the ring gear.

I also saw damage on the forward edge of the teeth.

If the damage to the flywheel ring gear is considered minor enough by the folks here, I may swap out my 12 volt starter for a 6 volt and get things running with that. I don't have any idea what condition the 3 speed manual transmission is in. If I have to pull the transmission, I would probably change out what is needed to go with a 12 volt starter at that time.

The whole truck does not have one usable wire in it at the moment, and since it is made up of major components from different years, I am not concerned about originality. My goal is to make a driver out of this project and hope to modify as little as possible, any original parts.

I am trying to do this project on a budget and taking it a step at a time as I learn the condition the components I have.

Thanks!

Nick, based on that measurement between teeth, you have a 139 tooth, 6 V flywheel. That was my picture in Bill's tech tip.

The wear on the teeth isn't that bad, IMO. Unless the starter is not engaging, I wouldn't worry about that.

Guys here have said that you can run a 6V starter on 12V without problems (if you do go with 12V). I haven't tried that myself, but don't doubt that it's true.

Thanks Kevin!

I will be on the lookout for a 6V starter, although I will probably stay with a 12V system otherwise.

One problem with getting old...one remembers when everything was so much cheaper!

No need to be on the lookout. NAPA sells brand new ones for $89.00.

Works great.

Thanks Otto!

$89 is not as scary as I thought it was going to be.

A self-rebuild of a 6V starter isn't that hard either. They're pretty robust. New brushes and maybe bushings and you're good to go for another 50+ years.

Kevin's right. I needed a starter right away because I use the truck as a regular work vehicle. I opted not to turn the old one in for the $19 core charge. I figure that $19 is a good deal for a 1949 Delco-Remy starter. I'll rebuild it in the future and re-install it.

You will thoroughly enjoy a 6 volt starter fed by a 12 volt battery. If the 6 volt starter is new or properly rebuilt, you won't have any issues running it on 12 volts. It will turn your engine over like nobody's business and start right away.
If you have a 6 volt starter with worn bushings and rough/dirty commutator, that starter will not like 12 volts for very long (those don't like 6 volts very much either).

Like many above have said, a 6v starter on a 12v system will get you going quick! One caveat though, don't spin it for a long time if the engine doesn't want to start. Might overheat the starter motor. Mine starts the engine up in less than a second if the choke is set properly and it hasn't been sitting for more than 2 weeks or so. Any longer and the carb might be dry. Then it takes a few seconds more.

Below is the text from a post on the OldGMCtrucks forum from 2016. My starter is part # 1107108 and was used on both Chevy and GMC trucks. I don't know if any of the BWD part numbers listed will fit any other starters. Still working well after 40,000+ miles and 12 years.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The starter on my '52 150 GMC began making funny noises a few weeks ago. I decided to overhaul it myself, with a little help from my buddy Bill.

Some research showed that the most likely starter for my truck was part number 1107108. I got on O'Reilly's web site and found the following BWD (Borg Warner) parts:
Starter drive (Bendix) SD212
Drive end bushing SB65
Commutator end bushing SB0
Brushes (set of 4) X265
Brush spring (need 4) SC204

Removed the ground wire from the battery, then all wires from the stomp starter switch.

Took the starter apart and cleaned everything up well. Under a layer of paint from a previous overhaul, I found the starter part number 1107108 as I hoped and a build date of Aug 3, 1952, newer than my truck. Painted all the exterior parts.

The Maintenance Manual warned against using Emery cloth on the commutator. My buddy Bill (retired electrician at an Exxon gas plant) said that was because the dust will conduct. I used regular garnet 220 grit sandpaper to clean up the commutator and then Bill used a modified hack saw blade to clean out the gaps and undercut the mica insulators.

We cut the old bushings out with a small chisel, folding the bushing material into the center of the hole. Then we carefully installed the new bushings using the back side of a 9/16" socket as a driver and tapping gently with a hammer.

Replaced the springs and brushes one at a time so I could look at the other 3 to make sure I was putting it back together correctly. Left the brushes slightly loose in their holders. Installed the commutator end plate onto the armature and then tightened the screws holding the brushes once they were properly positioned.

Used a small dab of high temp grease in both bushings and on the pivot point of the arm that throws the starter drive in.

Bolted everything else back together and re-installed the starter.

A tip for getting the starter back in by yourself. Get a 2"-3" 5/16" bolt and nut. Put the bolt through the hole in the top end of the arm that activates the starter switch and turn the nut on a few turns. Makes a good handle to hold the starter while getting the nut on the top mounting stud. Once the nut is on the top stud a few turns, crawl underneath and install the underside bolt all the way tight before you finish tightening the nut on the top.

Don't forget to wait until all the starter wires are installed before connecting the battery ground cable.

By the way, I've been running this 6 volt starter on 12 volts for 3+ years now.

WORKS GREAT!

Well, Shucks!

I don't have a 6V starter, so I assumed that I would have to purchase one.
I must be doing something incorrectly.
I can't find any starters for a 1954 Chevrolet at Rock Auto or at O'Reilly's.
Chev's of the '40s wants $199 and adds $150(!!!) if you don't have a core to give them.
Napa wants $153.99 plus the their core charge of $17.50.
Any more reasonable sources?
I don't see any for sale on this site or at the VCCA site.
I am not against rebuilding one myself if it comes to that. (I don't have a machine shop, but I assume that I can do most of what would be required.)

Nick - Here's a bit of added info as I have been working with Bill on parts "starter" number/application info for his Tech Tip. This info comes from multiple resources, including original Delco-Remy catalogs, GM Heritage PDFs , GM Master Parts books, and period aftermarket suppliers catalogs.

These 4 starters were the primary part numbers for the 6 volt starter that uses the correct drive for your 139 tooth flywheel (all will work for your application):

GM# 1107055 - Chevy Trucks 1948-52 (can also be used to replace many earlier year 6 volt starters back to the late 1930's)

GM# 1107061 - Chevy Trucks 1946-48

GM# 1107103 - Chevy/GMC Trucks 1948-51

GM# 1107108 - Chevy/GMC Trucks 1951-54

If you are looking for what appears to be a rebuildable core, I found this GM# 1107108 starter begging to find a new home. Even if you don't try and rebuild it yourself (based on Bill's info above I think you could), you could use it for a correct core to acquire a rebuild form one of the vendors. Just me, but I think I would jump on this one and see if you can't make it yours.

EDIT NOTE: Please note that the vendor identified at this link has been reported as a confirmed scammer and is NOT to be trusted for any parts offered through that site!

Dan,

I was in the process of trying to purchase that starter when I noticed that the website address didn't appear to be secure...no "https". Also no mention of shipping costs before requiring me to enter my credit card info.

I Googled the URL and found that there is a fellow on Facebook (Andrew's Automotive Archeology) who says that it has come to his attention that a website " www.automotivgys.shop" is "selling" his stuff at greatly discounted prices". He says it has to be a scam because all of his inventory is in his possession.

I then checked Andrew's webpage (https://automotivearchaeology.biz/) and I do see the 1107108 starter listed at the same very low price, but it indicates that it was sold. Please note that I have no other experience with Andrew's

Thanks very much for the heads-up about a starter being available and please let me know if you see another!

Thanks for that info Nick!!! Another scammer - GRRRRR!!! AT least you caught it and we can leave this up to warn others. I will search for another and let you know, after more diligent research.

If you need a 6-volt starter, post an ad here in the Swap meet. I'm sure that a fellow bolter has one laying around.

As the result of a generosity of a fellow Stovebolter responding to a "6V Starter Wanted" ad I placed in the "Swap Meet " section of this forum...I now have a 6V starter on my workbench.

I checked the diameter of the shaft as suggested by Bill Hanlon's unpublished Tech Tip and it indicates that it is a 6 volt unit.

I couldn't find a part number on the unit, though I did find some numbers.

The starter has a tag stuck to it (under the dirt) that indicates that it was "remanufactured" at some point. The seller said it came off of his '54 and was working before he removed it.

I have a concern about whether the drive assembly is supposed to float freely as far out as it does. I have posted some photos of the unit that show the extent to which the drive assembly can slide out (toward the flywheel) and wonder if that is as it should be.

It looks as though someone has modified the lever a bit, but I assume that won't be a problem. If it is, I probably will figure that out once I try to install it and see if it functions.

I would also assume that it makes the most sense for me to clean this unit up a bit, get a new switch for it (the one that was on it does not have the terminal on the side that I will be needing) and give it a try.

The lever is supposed to fit into a slot in the collar around the drive gear to push the gear into engagement and then push the button on the switch to turn the motor on. The spring on the linkage that goes over the bell housing keeps the lever and gear in the retracted position till you stomp on the starter button. It looks like someone may have adjusted where the lever pushes on the switch button. Maybe they added some material so the button pushed enough to start the motor before the lever hit the end of it's travel.

Kevin's comment about the added material on the lever is probably right. The electrical contact inside the switch and it's brother on the starter motor wear over time, sometimes so much that they no longer reliably touch when stomped. The correct fix would have been to replace the switch and/or the contact on the starter.

You are already planning to replace the switch. Get a new contact while you are at it. Just Google 821524 stud and a bunch of hits will pop up.
Here is an example that includes the necessary mounting hardware.

New, unstamped with a part number, Delco-Remy tags are available at Chevs of the 40s and Steiner Tractor if you want to finish off your starter's "restoration".

The contact inside the switch is significantly worn, but to my inexperienced eye, the contact on the top of the starter just has a shiny spot on it. (Visible in the third photo.)

Another question: Under the commutator cover (metal band) that wraps around the end of the starter, this unit has a heavy canvas-like tape wrapped around it. I assume that this was added when the unit was redone in an effort to keep the insides clean and dry. Is there a reason for me to remove this wrapping at this point? (Then again - it may come off as I clean the starter up. Should it be replaced?)

Thanks!

As long as the metal band is tight enough to stay on, I don't think the tape is needed. Mine has just the band around it.

The button on the starter doesn't look that bad to me. Just polish it up a bit. A new switch would probably help it work correctly. Some have put a soda bottle cap over the button to compensate for a worn switch. The extra thickness makes for more solid contact.

Next question...

What should the impedance be on the ballast resistor?
I see some that are marked as 0.8 ohm and some as 1.8 ohm.
I will be running a 12 volt system. (Yes, with that 6 volt starter. I promise I will take it easy on the cranking!)

Depends on the impedance of the coil primary. If you look at the coil and ballast resistor as strictly a DC circuit the ballast resistor should be somewhere around 1/3 the resistance of the coil.

With the ignition switch on, and the points closed, (engine stopped) measure the voltage at the + terminal of the coil. With the correct size resistor, it should be approximately 9 to 9.5 volts. Don't leave the points closed long - - -they will overheat and burn.

I appreciate the responses, but I am still collecting parts for this project and don't have a ballast resistor or a coil to test.

I see two ballast resistors on eBay - one of which was suggested by Hotrod Lincoln very early in this thread: https://www.ebay.com/itm/201100625600 ,
and the other I happened to come across (also on eBay) at https://www.ebay.com/itm/305148045526

They look different from each other and one says it is for 55-56 Chevrolets and the other says it is for '56, 57, 58 and 59 Chevrolet Trucks.

If the systems were all 12 volt...would there be a requirement for different resistances?

One would be $38.95 and the other would be $19.50 both including shipping. Should I flip a coin, is one correct and one incorrect?

Also...How do I choose a coil, since mine is of an unknown age and is dented?

Thanks for your input and your patience!