The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop HEI or points 6cyl

Hey everyone thinking of HEI on my 235 I would like to hear some views yes or no. And why .

Thanks for the input.

Mike

Mike this is a good topic and you're likely to get a raft of opinions. I'll toss mine in for you. I'm using an imported HEI distributor originally made for the 230/250 and I think may also work in the 292. About a year ago I bought another and showed just how I converted it with images, etc. The HEI I'm using has been going fine...I bought it originally in 1997. Not certain where it was made, but it is a copy of GM stuff...coil in cap and uses all GM components in case you need to replace anything. I also for a while used one of the mini-HEI units Tom Langdon made but I went back to the one from 1997 after Tom's unit had a problem I didn't have time to chase. The HEI is my pick for certain. Starts easy, runs smooth and strong and doesn't require maintenance. Even the one made in China (which can easily be adapted to the 235).
Here are a couple of points I'll add:
1. set this up so the HEI is separated from your ignition switch using a Bosch-style relay...at least 40 amp. Please, please don't get the idea your ignition switch can handle the inrush current when you start the engine. I have an ignition switch here I burned up doing that. The inrush amperage can be in the range of 23 to nearly 30 amps...for a momentary period, yes I agree it is but electricity isn't a forgiving thing and it is absolute. I can gladly rig up an electric chair for anyone who thinks a momentary rush of current isn't harmful, but I doubt anyone would agree to test their theory.
2. make sure you have an adequate-sized wire connecting it...there is plenty about that here.
3. advance your ignition timing a bit more than stock. 10 degrees btdc seems to be a happy spot.
4. separate your plug wires so you won't get cross-firing.

There will be more. Hope it is helpful. Points are fine...I'm not saying they aren't but the high energy ignition is a step forward in the ignition evolution.

Those HEI components can also be adapted to a stock-appearing stovebolt distributor if you don't like the "big cap" HEI appearance, and a 1980s MOPAR electronic ignition coil closely resembles the OEM General Motors point-type coil. That conversion requires a little bit of custom machining, however.
Jerry

I'm in the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" camp. If your points system is working properly, leave it alone. I've put 10k+ miles on Ol' Roy with no worries. Starts at the touch of the button and runs like a Swiss watch.

All of my vehicles have breaker points and they work fabulously. I've never been stranded by a breaker point ignition. A couple hundred thousand miles with no problems.

I did have an HEI module fail on a Monte Carlo a long time ago.

If you insist on converting, go with HEI and not Pertronix.

If you styick with points, get on of Jon G's (above) 200,000 hour condensers. You won't regret sticking with points if you do.

I hope that Mikeg1955 doesn't mine my jumping in on his post...but my question is basically the same as his...

My 235 is from 1954 model year and I am trying to find a distributor solution for it. The one that came to me with the project is the older "short cap" style which I have been told is not a good choice for this engine.

I am trying to figure out if i should go with a used "tall cap" style distributor, a new replacement for the tall cap style, an inexpensive HEI from Speedway Motors or other vendor. (Dependability is more important on this project than originality of appearance to me.) If I go with the original style distributor, what is the source for Jon G's condensers?

Hi Nick,
In answer to your question, please just send me an email (jon_goodman@yahoo.com) and I'll be happy to help with the condenser. I make them using US and German parts.

As for which is best for you, trust your own judgement, please. There isn't anything wrong with either approach. Both have merits, albeit different. Bottom line...one fires hotter. Jerry and I have discussed a coil-on-plug approach, also. That being a scheme where each spark plug has its own coil and the distributor acts as a switch to make each coil fire (so there is much less recovery time needed by the coils). We even thought of an interesting way to rig the distributor so there may be more on that later.

Thank you so much for all of the responses from my stovebolt friends it really helps. Your information is vital for all of us who don't have the wisdom on certain subjects.
Mike

Here is a link to the post where I converted one of the "ugly" distributors to work on the 216/235/261:

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread...for-stovebolt-lt-100-see-how#Post1543257

Nick,

I'm somewhat of a diehard originalist. It's mainly due to the fact that I'm not the kind of gearhead that has the knowledge to make major changes in automotive systems designed by people who actually knew what they were doing when the car was built.

I like to be able to look in a factory service manual and read how things are supposed to be. It makes solving problems a whole lot easier. (laziness probably has a lot to do with it).

Jon G is exceptionally modest. If you don't have any beef against breaker points, stick with them and get a condenser that will last the rest of your life and the lives of your great grand children.

Since I've been on this forum, I've had two off-the-shelf condensers fail in short order. The first one had me checking for timing chain slack, etc. because I didn't realize how crappy the new Chinese condensers were. Prior to this, condensers in my vehicles have lasted decades, not a few hundred miles.

After reading here about the problems with new condensers and seeing they reflected my own experience, I purchased condensers for every single one of my vehicles, including those that had no ignition problems.

In the cases where the condenser was known to be bad, Jon's parts cured the problem immediately.

If I hadn't had the good fortune to have an AD truck and be on this website, I'd probably still be chasing ignition gremlins in two Fords.

I doubt I'll ever have an issue with Ol' Roy since I preemptively replaced the condenser. Same with all the other cars.

Unfortunately it's the junk parts you get today that drives people to the sub-par Pertronix system.

Otto, I have certainly read a few less-than-favorable comments about Pertronix on this forum...

I like the idea of having a system that might make the engine start and run better than it would with an OEM style distributor - especially if it could be had for a competitive price.

Jon-G. Thanks for posting the link to your step-by-step modification of an HEI unit. It looks doable. But there is a unit out there which says it is for the 235ci Chevrolet 6. I assume that one would not need modification...OR is the one for the 230/250/292 a better choice for some reason?

[ Link to unit that indicates it would fit a 235: https://www.amazon.com/Team-Performance-Distributor-Compatible-Installation/dp/B073WN46BV ]

When I search online for "HEI for 1954 Chevrolet 235 inline 6" there are quite a number of returns for HEI units for these engines. Some are quite inexpensive...but have ANY of them been proven to be good?

Thanks,
Nick

My experience with old truck ignition modifications:

- on a 235cui engine I used the Pertronix 1168LS (compatible with Delco distirbutor). This worked fine and was easy to install. If the rest of the parts are in good conditions. From this view, HEI was not a option.

- on a 228cui engine with 6V system I tryed a Petronix, too (for 6V) but with this i had temporary starting issues so I came back to points.

- on my actual 292cui engine with HEI distributor I had to change the integrated ignition coil but I can´t say how old this coil was. After this the centrifugal advance parts where worn out and the vaccum advance was sticking. So I set up a chinese reproduction HEI distriutor. This works fine for the moment....

The one on Amazon is a distributor I will bet has been modified exactly like I did with the exception being I don't have a lathe and had to use a hack saw and a file. The one on Amazon will also need an o-ring on the shaft. But I believe it is the same distributor. I think they all are, actually. I think the one I bought in 1997 may have been made either in Germany or somewhere in South America...but I don't know that. The box and the data didn't give me much of a clue. At any rate it works fine...as long as you respect the inrush amperage of the coil. The operating amperage according to my meter is around 5 amps but it is the startup current that will mess with your ignition switch (which may have only been rated for 10 amps).

Jon, most people don't take into account the fact that before the inductive reactance of the primary winding kicks in to limit the current, Ohm's Law says that 12 volts applied to a 1/2 Ohm coil resistance produces 24 amps of current flow for a fraction of a second. Bump that figure up to the 14.5 volt normal output of a charging system takes that momentary current to 29 amps. No wonder ignition switch contacts fail! The laws of physics are not "suggestions"!
Jerry

To add fuel to the fire just let me add my .02 cents worth. I changed out the point type distributor on my "58 4400, 235 "Thor", for a small cap design HEI. I had issues trying to find points that actually fit the distributor housing. Having used HEI distributors for years in other engines, I was confident that using one in the 235 would be more than reliable.

I used a GM HEI from a early 80's 2.8L V6. The distributor was used not only in GM vehicles but may Jeep products as well. The only true modification was to change the drive gear to the original one for the 235. The 235 drive gear is actually inverted from the 2.8L. Other than that the distributor drops in and clamps in the factory location, the use of an oring on the shaft eliminates any oil leaks. Using the small cap HEI means use still use a remote mounted coil, it mounts just as the original did for the 235, I used a "Flame Thrower" coil (painted black) that I had from another project. I used plug wires for a 2.8L. The spark plug gap is opened up to .045, the plugs run clean and hotter. I did find that I needed to lean out the fuel mixture some, I dropped the float level slightly on the Rochester "B", that seemed to cure my issue.

All that is required to operate the HEI is a switched 12V power source. I mounted a remote power bus on inside the cab, I added a relay here to eliminate the constant draw on the ignition switch. The bus also allowed me to clean up the wiring and eliminate so many connections on the starter. The Truck starts quickly, even on a cold 28 degree morning. (Cold in South Georgia anyway) Slight choke, a pat on the gas and hit the stomp pedal and VROOM.

I like the HEI setup so well that I'm converting my '60 235 as well. The small cap HEI is available from many sources and most are reasonable, I bought mine from RockAuto. They are available with or without vacuum advance.

That’s really good to know, Craig. I had it in my head that making the 2.8 dizzy work required some machining or such. Swapping a drive gear is no big deal. I can handle that.

Did you use the vac advance version or the one without? Did you use the factory clamp to keep the dizzy shaft in place?

I need to apologize, I added the wrong pic of the engine. I deleted that picture, it was from before I swapped the distributor.. I opted to use the HEI with vacuum advance as I am running a carburetor. On the '60 235 I'm going without the vacuum advance. that engine will be fuel injected, more on that later. I'll see if I can find the pictures of the current HEI setup.

Craig - Do you happen to have a part number for the dizzy you used? Looking at RockAuto, I have to cross over to something like an early Buick 2.8L to find one with vacuum advance.

Also curious how the oil pump drive works out. My recollection of a Stovebolt dizzy is that the slotted shaft is separate from the drive gear you’d be swapping to the HEI unit. The pics of the 2.8 dizzy I have seen, show some sort of female end rather than slotted male.

I’m sure I’m missing something, you clearly made it work. Just trying to figure out what I’m missing.

Nathan, I had to go back and look at what I did. At first I tried using a large cap HEI that was given to me, that turn into a massive oil leak. I just couldn't get it to seal at the block. After doing my home work, I found that the reason the factory distributor has 2 grooves in the shaft is to stop the oil from migrating up the shaft. Lesson learned.

At this time I had removed the engine from the 1960 C10. The 235 had a small cap HEI, it looked very similar to the Tom Langdon units I have seen. Looking back now it did seem the drive shaft was as you describe, shorter. I crossed the numbers and found it was from a GM 2.8L. The module was bad, taking the old module to the FLAPS they crossed it to a 1983 2.8L S10. The HEI had a GM square type coil, I opted to use the "Flame Thrower" I had. I installed the distributor in "Thor", completed the wiring and never looked back.

Needing a distributor for the 1960 235, I again turned to Rock Auto. The GM 2.8L was used in countless vehicles. I found a listing for a 1985 Jeep Cherokee, it showed distributors with and without vacuum advance. I have ordered the distributor and waiting on it to arrive now, it should be here today or tomorrow. To compare the two I would need to pull the HEI from "Thor", that's just not going to happen right now.

In the Electrical Forum, Jon G has a great write up on converting a 230 HEI for use in a 235. I know that Deve's web page also addresses this, our own HRL has some great input on the subject as well. I will post some pictures once I have the new distributor.


https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=3863862&cc=1179569&pt=7108&jsn=585


https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1123678&cc=1179569&pt=7108&jsn=586

I wonder if your existing HEI is a Langdon unit or one that someone modified to mirror a Langdon unit.

https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/HEI_mini.html

If you want to buy the one (yes, with the red cap) I converted for the 216/235/261 just send a PM or an email. It is completely new...I haven't even installed it and run it yet. So that means all new internal parts, new vacuum canister, everything. I can modify another if I need to.

There is another alternative for the 12v system crowd. Rebuild your 235 distributor, purchase an MSD 6 or MSD 6AL and install the MSD with either MSD's Blaster II coil (painted black for that stock look, or Accel's Super Stock Coil (black, chrome, yellow). The real wear part of the points set up is the points themselves. Current through the points until the points open and then current to the plug wire. This electrical connection will eventually deteriorate the points.

But with an MSD, the points act as a switch only, on, off, no current. The electrical function is through the MSD which is why no deterioration to the points. The points will last for years. Multiple sparks at lower rpm, which is where a lot of these motors tend to run, better fuel burning, better performance so to speak. If the MSD breaks for whatever reason, you just unplug the wiring and wire it up like a standard points distributor and you are on your way again. I have never had one fail but all things are possible these days.

My fuzzy memory of your 230/250 conversion isn’t complete. Is there an advantage to doing it that way vs buying the aftermarket large cap HEI already built for the 235/261?

Probably not an advantage. At least I wouldn't think so. Probably only a matter of price and how much you might want to DIY and that depends entirely on your point of view. The one that is already machined to fit the 235/261 would essentially be the same distributor. There is no difference I can see at all. What both of us had to do was pretty simple...remove the flange, reduce the shaft size and then add a collar to keep the gear in the right place where it meshes with the cam gear. Their retaining collar is slightly more spiffy...I ended up using a retaining piece made for a generic GM engine (like the 230/250/283/327, etc)...any distributor that relied on a flange. I got one on Amazon and it was less than $7. Speedway has one made for the 235/261: https://tinyurl.com/wpk85jje

The price of the distributor itself has declined since I did this...I believe on the large auction site a bit less than $70 plus tax for one of the 230/250 distributors will make it yours and I think I paid $10 for 2 of the collar pieces I used on Amazon. So that's the money part of the deal.

I just did this because in the months preceding my work this topic had come up a few times, Tom Langdon has stopped making his mini-HEI distributors and from what I could tell people wanted a new product that used GM parts if they were needed. I just wanted to show how I converted the one I'm using. I still have Tom's mini-HEI, but something went wrong in there. Some new parts are needed and so I went back to using the old imported one. Tom and I discussed this, by the way...a few times. He didn't replace parts if they weren't missing or damaged or showed some sign of trouble (except for the rotor as I recall). And Tom is a very intelligent guy. I suspect something in the mini-HEI just stopped working. The key thing to keep in mind is any of the products you get from Rock Auto or any other re-seller of old GM distributors isn't going to be new. As I said, the comments around here at the time I did this indicated to me people were looking for something brand new.

Just an FYI- - - -the "small cap" setup requires a LOT of machine work to adapt it to a stovebolt engine, plus a gear swap. I've done one of them, just to see if I could duplicate the Langdon conversion, and I don't plan on doing any more. It's less work, and much more original-looking to put HEI parts into an original stovebolt distributor housing.
Jerry