The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 235 Starting/Running Problems

I have a 1952 235 engine in my 1951 Suburban; when I bought the truck about 5 years ago, the engine was the only thing that was basically good with the vehicle. It ran beautifully and idled like a sewing machine; it doesn’t seem to leak a drop of oil. I put only a couple hundred miles on it per year. Last week, I pulled the truck out of my shed to move out my camper, and then pulled it back in; it ran perfectly as usual. Four days later, I returned home and tried to start the truck to move things back in order. It fired once as I turned it over and then refused to start. I tried again and again, even with the aid of starting fluid, and it would not start, or even fire; I checked the coil and every spark plug—spark was good. I checked the points—spark was good and gap was correct; points are almost new. Still no start. I then checked the fuel filter in front of the carb, I checked the entire fuel line, and replaced the fuel pump (thinking it might be a faulty pump; the fuel lines and gas tank are new). I could get it to start once, but could barely keep it running by feeding the accelerator, and then it ran very rough; once letting off the accelerator, it died and wouldn’t start again. I then removed the carburetor (thinking one of the passages might have picked up some foreign matter, etc.). It’s a Rochester B with automatic choke. I cleaned all passages with carb cleaner and piano wire and compressed air; it looked good and clean. I remounted the carb and was able to start the engine once again, but it ran very rough and would only continue running with a constant feed on the accelerator; once I let off, it stalled out. I’ve worn down the battery trying to start it and keep it going.

I’m not sure what to try next—could it be a bad or malfunctioning coil or condenser? Could the timing be off—but how could timing change literally one start from the next, after it was running perfectly before? What would you try next? Obviously a very frustrating situation given the fact that it was running perfectly when I shut it down four days ago, and subsequently would not start on the very next try after sitting idle in an enclosed shed for four days! Any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Jim

I might start with the timing. Get the bb on the flywheel lined up to the pointer on the bellhousing, TDC for No. 1 cylinder. Trace the No. 1 spark plug wire to the distributor and put a silver sharpie mark on the body of the distributor directly under the center of the cap tower for No. 1 cylinder. Take the cap off and see if the rotor is pointing at your mark, or really really close to your mark. That will tell you if the distributor moved on not.

If not, I would replace the condenser. Is Jon still making up his condenser replacements? If he is you might try one of his units as opposed to the junk we are now getting over the counter.

After that, I might take a compression test.

I would check for vacuum leaks as well.

As for timing, I recently had a rough running/poor acceleration issue that came out of nowhere. Definitely “seemed” like timing, but I explored a few other theories first. Advancing the timing (just by ear) cleaned it right up.

All I can figure is that the clamp allowed the distributor to slip. But it certainly didn’t seem loose. The octane adjuster bolt was plenty snug as well.

Fouled spark plugs from flooding. The best spark in the world doesn't help if all the voltage leaks away down the porcelain insulator instead of jumping the gap. I solved a similar problem last week by having another bolter remove his plugs and heat them with a Propane torch.
Jerry

Yes, I am still making the condensers. Thanks for thinking about them. I can't offer them here but a PM or an email to [email protected] will be a good contact point.

Thanks to all for your responses. When I checked the plugs for spark, I did clean them with a brush (but not with a torch!!!); I will check them again. I have one of Jon’s condensers in this (and my other vehicles), though I may have fried it (and my coil) by accidentally leaving my key turned on after my last attempt to start the truck (I discovered it later, and the coil was hot). Suggestions for checking the timing are well taken, and that will be my next move when I get some free time after this weekend.

Thanks again, and any further thoughts are appreciated. When I solve the problem, I’ll report back what I found.

Jim

Leaving the switch on (especially with the points closed - coil wouldn't be hot if the points were open) shouldn't hurt the condenser.

The points will probably be burned beyond help. It only takes a few minutes of key on/engine stopped to fry them.
Jerry

Update: I installed a new coil, new points, new condenser, new spark plugs. I lined up the timing mark on the flywheel with the pointer, and the rotor points to #1 cylinder. I can start the truck with difficulty by flooring the accelerator and letting off, but I have to keep feeding the accelerator or it will die, and when running, it is extremely rough.

I have not performed a compression check on all the cylinders or tried to re-adjust the distributor (via octane selector, etc.), since I need another pair of hands to help with those operations (I can enlist a buddy to help out as the next step). I have also not switched out another carburetor since I don’t have another Rochester B on my shelf, though I do have one in another truck—but I hate to pull it off that truck at this point.

I’m beginning to worry about the timing gear—is it possible that a tooth or two sheared off the timing gear and the truck is now out of time? If that’s the case, would the engine even run? The rotor shaft in the distributor does not turn freely, so the pin there has not sheared. I suppose the next step would be to pull the valve cover and check for correct valve movement, bent pushrods, etc.

Is it possible that the timing gear has been damaged but still able to run the truck? Is there a simple and not-so-invasive way of checking the timing gear? Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Thanks for your advice.

Jim

A stovebolt (or any other engine) won't run at all with a stripped timing gear. You're beginning to sound like the guys we once called "wheelbarrow mechanics"- - - - - -roll a wheelbarrow full of new parts up to the job, and start swapping stuff out until something fixes the problem- - - - -then charge the customer for everything you installed, plus a lot of labor time. It sounds like the problem might be carburetion, and there are plenty of ways to eliminate other issues by doing some simple diagnostic tests. You can verify the camshaft timing by watching the movement of the valve rocker arms on either the #1 of #6 cylinders and looking at the timing mark on the flywheel. You can get the ignition timing within +/- 2 degrees or so with the engine stopped- - - -just line up the "BB" on the flywheel with the pointer, and turn the distributor housing counterclockwise until the points just barely break open. Adjust the valves, run a compression test, and check for vacuum leaks once the engine is running by running the tip of an unlit Propane torch around the intake manifold and carburetor base. So far, none of these checks require replacing ANY parts. No, they won't get done, because it's easier to make a WAG and throw parts at the problem!
Jerry

Jerry,

Thanks for your reply. “Wheelbarrow Mechanic”—that’s funny, and perhaps apt. But you might recall that I fried the coil (leaking oil) and the points by accidentally leaving the key in the on position as I was testing things, so I needed to replace those parts anyway, and another poster mentioned trying a new condenser. I will continue to diagnose as you suggest, and if/when I finally figure it out, I’ll report the results.

Jim

You said you installed a "new" fuel pump. Do not assume that it is functioning properly. They are ALL complete junk straight from the box. I am not exaggerating. I and others here have had new fuel pumps fail in a few hundred miles or not even pump any gas at all after installation.

The only pumps worth installing are rebuilt originals or rebuilt after market pumps made before about 1990.

First, check your fuel pressure at the carburetor. It should be between 2-4psi. No more, no less.

When my first new pump gave up the ghost, it began with rough idling, stumbling, stalling, etc. Finally it wouldn't restart and I went down the road of looking at everything else because, "it's a brand new pump, no need to check that."

Update—Problem solved (mostly)…

Last week my neighbor and I were reviewing all the advice given here and going through everything that I had tried, etc., brainstorming again about what might be the problem, since nothing seemed to have helped. He suggested that I try some different plug wires. I reminded him that the plug wires were only a couple years old with very few miles on them, and the first thing I did when the trouble began was to check for spark, and I had what looked to be good spark at each plug. He stayed with the idea, so I pulled out some old plug wires I had on the shelf (I only had 4 to trade in), and much to my surprise, the truck started right up. It was still idling a little rough, but it would idle on its own. I ordered a new set of wires (with real wire) from Filling Station, and installed them yesterday. The truck now fires right off just barely touching the starter pedal, and will run and idle without touching the accelerator. It’s still not idling as smoothly as it did before the trouble began—I suspect I disturbed the good adjustment I had on the carburetor when I took it off and cleaned it. I’ll keep fine tuning.

After checking for spark, I didn’t suspect the plug wires, especially since I installed new wires just a few years ago; the truck has really not been run much. I was also surprised that neither my NAPA store nor O’Reilly’s had correct plug wires for the 235, nor were they able or willing to try to order them—pretty amazing, and sad…The kid at the counter acted like I had landed from another planet!

That's good. It always comes back to the basics.

Threads like this, wake a few of us up. Hmmmmm, maybe we should check our plug wires. Thanks for the update.

"Real wire" is a huge mistake, unless you're running resistor spark plugs. That stuff went out of favor with professional mechanics in the 1950s. It causes very rapid deterioration of distributor rotors and distributor cap contacts, as well as interfering with AM radio and broadcast TV signals. Suppressor type "wire" can have up to 1000 ohms per inch resistance and still function properly, so a 12" long wire can measure up to 12K Ohms when checked with an ohmmeter.
Jerry