The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Driveline A little wiggle in the front end

We can all appreciate "A little wiggle in the front end", but not if it is the front end of our trucks.

Saturday I had some errands in town (10 miles one way) and decided to take my '52 GMC 3/4 ton. On some real smooth pavement I noticed a slight wiggle in the steering wheel at 40 mph. When I slowed to 35 it went away. Decided to limp home (35 in a 60 zone for 7 of the miles and nobody came up behind me - quiet road).

Yesterday I had some time for the truck. Jacked up the passenger's side front wheel. I could feel a little slop when I grabbed it at 3 & 9 o'clock and wiggled. Wiggled some more and could tell that the looseness was on the driver's side. Put the passenger's side back on the ground and jacked up the driver's side. Took the tire off.

I grabbed the disk (CPP 1/2 ton 5 lug front disk brake kit adapted to my truck BEFORE I bought it) at 3 and 9 and wiggled. The steering arm, tie rod and drag link were all moving when they shouldn't be. Turns out the replacement bolts that CPP supplied to hold their custom bracket to the steering arm and knuckle were loose. The nuts that CPP supplied are those 1/2"-13 "nyloc" self locking type. They both needed about 1 turn to get really tight. I haven't had them off since I bought the truck 11 years ago.

Didn't have time for a test drive, so I'll continue this story when I get back from the gym this afternoon.

I have the same nuts on my truck with disk brake kit.

I wonder if the heat from the brakes got to those nyloc nuts; perhaps the all metal lock nuts would be better.

Nylock. Not great for high heat applications.

Hopefully, there is a torque wrench in the tool box.

Nylock nuts are no substitute for proper torque. Bolts stay tight because they stretch a little as they are tightened to the proper torque, and that depends on the "grade" of the bolt. Grade 2 bolts, the ones in the bulk bins at most of the big box hardware stores, are soft as butter and shouldn't be used in applications where there's any stress at all. They're OK for oil pans, valve covers, and other non safety related situations. Grade 5 is for medium duty situations, like water pumps, intake and exhaust manifold bolts, etc. They need more tightening torque than a grade 2 to stay tight. Then there's Grade 8- - - -cylinder head bolts, main bearings, and any component that's in a safety related location like steering linkage, universal joints, suspension components, etc. They need to be TIGHT to keep from loosening up in use. Self locking nuts just try to keep the parts from falling off once an insufficiently tightened fastener loosens up. There are published specifications for proper torque values for every type, size, and grade of fastener. Then there are the specialty bolts like for high performance connecting rods, that are MUCH tougher than graded fasteners, and need to be tightened to a specific amount of stretch, measured with a micrometer, to stay tight!
Jerry

This morning I was ready for a test drive. It is a mile from my garage to the cattle guard at the front of my neighborhood, my planned turn around point. I noticed a little wiggle at about 20 mph (lower than before) and didn't take it over 25.

About 10 feet before the cattle guard and less than 10 mph the passenger side front fender started moving up and down an inch or two and the steering wheel started jerking left and right, no longer "a little wiggle". I rolled to a stop after crossing the cattle guard, got out and found this:

The red mark is the only place the center section of the wheel was attached to the rest of the wheel.

When I had this wheel off on Sunday I did not notice any cracks, but I wasn't looking for them either. I think I would have noticed this one.

Never seen such a thing!

Below is the only "ID" I can find on the wheel. Anybody have an idea of who the maker is?? It has a dual bolt pattern. 5 x 4 3/4" and 5 x 4 1/2". The wheel is 16" x 7". Tires are 215/85 x 16".

And I can't find the hubcap!

Good thing you caught it before getting back on a highway. That's a good lesson for all.

I've had wheel hubs tear out in racing applications; and more recently my wife's "new" (well I bought it new but still only 13 years old) mini van had a front wheel actually rot through so bad it wouldn't hold air - so yes these things do happen, thankfully not common.

A utility trailer that was given to me a while back lost the outer part of the right wheel, and the tire at highway speed about 50 miles from home, while the wheel center stayed bolted in place. Never found the errant wheel, as the mishap occurred at about 10:00 PM. Somehow, the right rear tire on my Ram 1500 went flat at the same time. I think I might have run over a piece of debris in the road that damaged things. Bottom line- - - -$400.00 worth of towing charges later I made it home- - - -the trailer on a rollback wrecker, with the pickup following along backwards on a wheel lift at the rear of the rollback!
Jerry

They used to make wheels like that for clown cars at the state fair!

Ed

It is hard to tell in that picture. Did the weld just have basically no penetration most of the way around? Or was it rubbing on the caliper and wore through?

CT&W is supposed to be Carlisle Tire and Wheel. Looks like it was made in September 2010. Maybe contact them; they might be interested to see how their wheel performed!

Carlisle Tire and Wheel no longer exists, but I think was absorbed by the CarlStar group. I have an inquiry in to them.

It didn't break at a weld. That part of the wheel is one piece stamped. The small weld spots you see are the "nubs" for the hub cap to snap over.

Speaking of hub caps, a neighbor just called. He found my hub cap about 3/10 of a mile from the cattle guard.

I hadn't considered that. I'll look for wear marks on the back of the wheel and the caliper.

No rub marks on the back side of the wheel or on the brake caliper.

That is good. So any indication of what did happen? Just fatigue failure?

Far above my pay grade to make that decision, but I don't see anything on else wrong.

Fair enough. So what is the plan now? Inspect the other 3 real good for similar failures and find a reppaacement?

Are those wheels originals, reproductions, something else?

Man...a bad situation for the maker. Also a little nightmare for the products liability insurer for CarlStar Group. You may not want another one but I imagine they'll want to send you a new wheel pronto and I imagine their insurer will want that wheel returned in the same box to make sure some attorney doesn't arrange for some forensic testing.

Something else. They were put on, along with a new set of bias-ply 7.00x16 tires, by the Hot Rod shop that the previous owner had do $23K of work to the truck.

That's super scary! Are there any markings on the wheel to identify it? I somehow doubt any markings present are D.O.T. I ask because if there are, you could post a photo so we know which repop wheels to avoid.

Looks like a Widowmaker 2.0 situation here, if that had come apart on the highway.

Click on the picture in this post for markings.

I am in contact with the manufacturer, Carlisle Tire and Wheel who are now CarlStar Group.

I'd have a hard time trusting the other three. Maybe they'll give you 4 new ones and take those back.

I'd need 5.

Time for an update ...

The news isn't great.

CTW (now CarlStar) says that:

1. Their warrantee only covers the original owner

2. They only made the outer rim (has CT&W markings), which did not fail. They say they sell the rims to many other wheel shops that weld their own inner part of the wheel (which failed) to the CTW rim. They never made a complete 16x7 wheel with a combination center section that had 5 on 4.5" and 5 on 4.75" bolt circles.

The only "evidence" I could find to the contrary is the very cryptic "CT" on the invoice line describing the wheels (and tires) that the shop that installed them put on the invoice to the previous owner.

I think I'm at a dead end here. I'm not the kind of person that hires a lawyer over such a low cost item. Had there been actual damages it would be different.


However ........

I finally got around to driving my truck (with the spare tire on the right front) outside of the neighborhood (25 mph speed limit) yesterday. As soon as I reached 40 mph the wiggle was back. I immediately turned around and limped home at 20 mph or less.

So it looks like the busted wheel was symptom, not a cause. Or maybe the other front wheel is about to come apart. I dunno.

Plan B (in the next few days):

Jack up the front end.
Spin one tire at a time looking for wobble. I might have to make some kind of runout gauge to better understand the problem.

"Tune in again next week when our hero ......."

I don't care how far out of whack your alignment is or other steering components are, wheels shouldn't come apart like that.

And if you had some crazy, non wheel related problems going on with your front end that caused that wheel to self-destruct, I think you would have noticed it before the wheel fell apart.

Is your truck a hot rod? Different caster angle or anything?

Back to your original issue, I know you said the tires were new but that doesn't mean they can't fail at any time. Check for tire separation.

No hot rod, but I did replace the measured at 2.5 degree caster shims with 4 degree shims in 2017.


Tires are not new. Much more wear on the inside and should be replaced soon. I'll be sure to check for separation.

I've got my hillbilly runout gauge made. A 6"x6"x12" block of cedar with a piece of 1/4" dowel rod attached. Probably be a day or 3 before I get any garage time.

Finally had some truck time this morning. Mounted the spare tire/wheel on the right front and took some measurements using a set of feeler gauges and my homemade runout gauge shown below. Apologies to HRL.

I don't think anything that I measured would cause the shaking in the steering wheel I felt. I was only spinning the tires by hand, so go nowhere near the 40 MPH I felt the problem at before. I did take the truck on some really smooth pavement and could feel a vibration at 20 mph if I had just one finger lightly on the steering wheel.

I tried shaking all the steering components while I had the truck off the ground and couldn't detect anything loose.

Here is my measuring device and the results of my measurements.

This is beginning to sound like a tire problem...belt separation would be a starting point but there could be more. Good luck!

Try new tires. A toe in sounds in order. Remove the casters.

I had a belt separate inside a Coker tire on my Cadillac. It was so bad I could feel the Laurel & Hardy wobble below 10mph.

I'll swap the front tires with the rear tires and see if it makes any difference.

I replaced the stock caster wedges (about 2.5 degrees) with 4 degree wedges almost 10 years ago. Ran fine that way until lately.

Bill this does not sound like a caster problem to me. 2.5 degrees should be ok. 4 is a bit on the high side but only by about 1 degree...I like to use an even 3 degrees. I've learned you can move the wedges back/forward until you get the degree reading you want, mark them, drill new holes and go from there. Even if the new hole becomes more of an oval, I haven't had trouble with those shifting once things are tightened.

If it is belt separation you'll feel it no matter where the tire is. On the front, it will usually be felt in the steering wheel and you may see the hood shaking a bit, too. On the back it will usually feel like somebody is kicking you under the seat. That's usually a good way to tell if it is separation in just one or two tires. Good luck. I'll be curious...