The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay No spark. Then no starter.

Pl please excuse any spelling and or grammar mistakes in this post. I'm dictating it on my phone since I am not at home at my computer.

Oh Roy has been at another location and has not been started or driven in about 6 weeks. My I attempted to get my mom to start it and let it run for 30 or 40 minutes every couple of days or so but the turn the key push the button pull the choke step on the pedal etc etc was too complicated and she couldn't get it started.

For the record the truck has operated more or less flawlessly for close to 5,000 MI now.

When I came out today to start the truck, assuming that it was probably a fuel problem like flooding or some such, I discovered that it was getting plenty of gas but that it had a week or no spark.

I checked and cleaned all of The usual suspects such as the contacts inside the distributor cap and the rotor itself. All are essentially new, but I clean them up with sandpaper anyway. At the end of each little test I tried to start the truck but each time it would not start. The truck spins over rapidly as usual the battery is fully charged.

I checked all of the cable connections positive took it off wire brushed everything put it back on. No go. Took off the positive and negative wires on the coil, cleaned the ring connectors and put them back on. No go.

Just to reiterate all of this stuff is more or less new and hasn't been sitting on the truck for 70 years rotting.

I attempted to start the truck after each new connection was cleaned and reattached to see if there was any change, and of course there was not.

I disconnected the negative ground cable between the frame and engine block just below the lever for the stump starter.


After both ends were cleaned and reinstalled including all of the nuts bolts attaching hardware and frame and attaching points to make sure there was clean metal, I attempted to start the truck again.

This time, there was nothing. The starter would not spin at all it didn't click or make a noise.

What happened? While attempting to start this truck, I never let the starter spin and spin and spin, it only went around for a few seconds because it was obvious the truck was not going to fire.

Was the starter already on its last legs? Is this problem related to the no spark problem?

As an added test I ran a jumper cable, an actual jumper cable that you start cars with, from the ground terminal of the battery directly to the frame near the starter. I also ran a jumper cable from the positive battery terminal 2 the starter stud. This had no effect on the starter, as it would not spin or make a noise. Manually moving the stomp starter lever by hand under the hood produced no results. Dead silence.

Battery is fully charged and headlights come on as bright as normal. The battery has been on a battery tender this whole time. Battery shows 6.5 volts after all of this attempted starting.

What is going on? What happened to cause the weak spark or no spark problem, and then what happened to the starter?

I suspect the starter issue is just a coincidence but maybe it is related to the no spark situation. I took some pictures in case anybody needs to see the inside of the distributor or whatnot but I won't be able to post them until I get home.

I want to reiterate that this truck was being driven at least 100 miles or more each week until it took a break a couple months ago it had absolutely no mechanical issues that I was aware of

Give the starter housing a couple of moderately firm taps with a hammer back near the brush holders- - - -the opposite end from the stomp linkage. It sounds like it's time for a brush and bushing job on the starter. If the brushes are worn down to a nub, sometimes a little massage with a BFH will coax a few more starts out of it. It's an band-aid, not a permanent fix.
Jerry

Hi Jerry, I did whack on the starter a few times but to no avail. Is it your opinion that the starter issue is unrelated to my weak spark issue?

If the starter was drawing more than a normal amount of current before it went toes-up, most of the battery voltage was being consumed by the starter- - - -leaving an insufficient amount to power the ignition system. Too late now to do a cranking voltage test- - - -get the starter sorted out, and chances are the ignition system won't need any work. Backtracking to the last thing you did before the starter quit turning might expose some kind of mistake- - - -that's happened to me on numerous occasions!

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Jerry

Thanks jerry. That sounds logical. I'll pull the starter tomorrow and inspect it but most likely I'll take it to the semi-local electric shop that rebuilt the generator a couple years ago.

Otto...
I've had the copper lugs on the button switch on the starter stop making contact. All of a sudden. New offshore switch. Found an old one in the shop from a John Deere M and went back to work.

Everything is 6 volt. Generator was rebuilt a year ago new voltage regulator. Batteries 2 years old

Do you typically use sandpaper on the contacts in the distributor? I was always told that was a no-no.

Well since the truck was out of my mom's and there's virtually no tools or supplies or diagnostic equipment or anything else I had to improvise. I figured the contacts are all brass how can sandpaper hurt it?

I know you don't use any of that crap on points but the points were nice and clean I just ran a little piece of cardboard through it

Some rotors have a black coating on the tip- - - -it's supposed to be there. Don't sand it off.
Jerry

I don't think I've ever seen that before. I'll look at the old one. I know the new one didn't have anything like that on it. It was just shiny brass when I installed it.

Once you get past saying everything is new and it ran good.....you can begin troubleshooting with tests. Forget those thoughts and find what is wrong. Once you had good starter spin you should have stuck to finding where spark/voltage was and was not instead of cable and wire cleaning. You don't have bad cable connections if the starter is spinning motor.
Find 6V at coil pos with switch on, no starter spin. Then to dizzy/points and then pull a plug and check it. Follow the spark/ignition voltage.
I realize you had no tools or meters but you did say " it had a week or no spark." Where? How did you check?
Don't trust the battery until it's load tested by someone who knows what they are doing. Doesn't matter it powers lights. Get it checked first.

You were at a disadvantage and the gremlins got you. Trucks that sit can get all kinds of problems. Parasitic draw, condensation corrosion, condenser leak, sulfation.................

I pulled the coil wire off the dizzy and held it close to a clean piece of metal and saw a weak spark. Did the same thing with two plug wires and got no arc from them to metal.

Condenser and bad battery. the dreaded two things at once. These are total guesses that need testing or replacement. I recommend to be sure battery is good before doing anything else. Boiler plate approach.

How do you dictate to a phone? What app is that? I will get off my app and do that.

Hopefully it's not the condenser. It's one of Jon G's.

I wonder if the Advance/Auto Zone people can load test a 6v battery?

You just hit the little microphone icon when the keyboard comes up to type. If it didn't have that, I would never send a text message or type a response on this forum from my phone. I'm like the least technologically advanced member of my circle of friends and discovered it by accident. Some of them didn't even know their phone could do that.

I've had bad luck at some FLAPS. Just kept trying till I find a person who knows how to load test and show me.
Most just tell you it's OK, it has 12+ volts (or I guess 6+ volts). Autozone happened to have the winner. It's not easy. Just hand held stuff no good big machines left. Test is at 1/2 the CCA for 15 seconds. Then read voltage.
When will you be converting to 12V/alternator? Now? Monday?

Does the starter have a spring steel band around the back end where the brushes ride on the commutator? Some do- - - -others don't. If not, you'll need to remove the starter and take the back plate off to inspect the brushes.
Jerry

I think it has a strap around it. It's out at my mom's so I will have to look at it when I go back out there. Maybe these pics can help. Probably not, though.

Yes, it has a strap.

I had a generator quit generating on the road one time. I pulled off the band strap, reached in with a finger nail and pulled back on the brush springs and let them snap back onto the brush. push started the truck and it began generating again.
The brush holders just had enough road grime to prevent the springs from pushing the brushes against the commutator once the brushes got worn to the point of no contact. Sapping the brush springs dislodged the grime.
You may be able to do the same thing with the starter brushes.

I disconnected the negative ground cable between the frame and engine block just below the lever for the stump starter.
After both ends were cleaned and reinstalled including all of the nuts bolts attaching hardware and frame and attaching points to make sure there was clean metal, I attempted to start the truck again.

Go back to that again and make sure it didn't break off or almost break off somewhere while tightening it.. Re-examine the bare metal and cable ends are contacting face to face.
How many volts in battery at rest right now?

I realize you have lights and that shows ground. No clicking at all at starter does indicate these things as all the guys have said.
1. Bad foot linkage operation
2. Bad button/button switch
3. Bad brushes
4. Bad starter
5. Starter not grounded or bad power connection
6. Cables
7. Battery break down or dead from no charge/intermittent
8. Bad ground

I think everybody agrees, gotta get the starter working first.

Well, I think I figured out why the starter quit. All the oil leaked out!

The top ear had a stud and nut holding it in place instead of a bolt. Is that how it's supposed to be? I assume there may be a clearance issue with the armature throw-out lever with a bolt. If so, should I use thread locker on the stud when I reinstall it?

NAPA can get you a quality reman starter in 24 hours for about $70 with your core.
Yes, the upper fastener is a stud with coarse threads for the block and 1/2" fine threads for the starter. 1/2" coarse threaded bolt for the bottom fastener. Make sure it is not too long and bottom out the threads. I think 1" is the length. Maybe 1-1/4.
Yes, I would permatex that stud.

Yeah there's a Napa near me I hardly ever use them though. But I'll swing by there tomorrow. And they can do a 6 volt?

It looks like a rear main bearing seal job is in your future before too long. Also take a look at the valve cover gasket- - - -with the slight tilt toward the rear of the engine, any valve cover seepage ends up in the bell housing. At least the sheet metal flywheel cover seldom rusts out!
Jerry

Yes I've known that it needs a rear main seal for a while. Not something I really want to try myself in the garage.

Does NAPA require the original starter as a core? I guess I'll find out when I go there. It is the original Delco Remy starter

Otto,
I believe it's a "core charge" like a battery.
You either give them a core or get charged. I can not remember the amount. I kept my original starter and had a local guy rebuild it a year later.

I looked up NAPA shows $17.50 for a core charge and about $83.00 for Starter ( check your local store). I would bring old one with you and match it size, teeth, ect on the counter. Good luck!
This starter is for 1950 6 volt 3100 216 truck:

Thanks. For 1750 I think I'll keep the original. If I finish working early enough today I'll take it over there and see what they can do. If not I'll just go tomorrow. But with such a low core charge it would be worth hanging on to the original Justin case. You never know if the new ones are made out of chineseium or what.

Otto,
Agreed 100%.
Just buy a good rebuild kit and you can have a spare starter..I have two spare starters..haa haa.
Todd

You can change the filter and add oil in that starter real cheap, just don't let the smoke out, even with canned smoke I have not found a good way to inject it and keep it in there.

I wonder if I could try liquid smoke that you get at the grocery store?

I guess I'd better check the oil level in my starter now. It there a dipstick on a starter? What weight oil does it take?

The really good news is you have found what was wrong and it is a relatively easy and inexpensive fix. All the work you did will make a better truck. That rebuilt starter seems very inexpensive in now-a-days economy. Very good job Otto. Napa delivers to me for free as I am within 5 miles. If yours does that, you can have it delivered to your Mom's house and install it when you are ready.
This result is a ding wa duty, yippee ki yay, Buck Owens success. Cowabunga! Double dally.

I think I got lucky with the starter dying when it did.

Should I use red Loctite on the mounting stud or blue?

I just ordered the starter from NAPA. It's over in Charlotte, NC and will be here sometime tomorrow. Same price as Shaffer posted.

I would use red permatex. Permanent.

I never considered using the liquid smoke, I assumed if it came out of the electrical device as a vapor, I would have to replace it with the same. You might be on to something, let us know how that works out for you! Glad to hear you found a replacement starter.

That was my thought.

Is it possible to date this starter?

1107055 0018

Luckily I have some on hand. I think Hickory will work better than mesquite.