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I noticed that the Zenith 228s made for a GMC 270 had a couple of variants. I apologize if its been discussed before but I couldn't find anything with the search function.

There are:
228AV11
228AV12
228BV11
228BV12
228BV11C
228BV12C

I read on an old post from Carbking that the "A" and "B" refer to the throttle/choke orientation but it was elaborated how. The "11" and "12" weren't discussed. The "c" was also not discussed.

I am needing a carb for a 261. I know I need a 175 base (2 15/16" intake stud spacing). I am sure all these could work with some fiddling but which model is less painful?

Last edited by Danielbolt; 09/21/2023 9:55 PM.

~ Daniel Davidson
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Alright, after a few hours of scraping the bottom of the barrel on Google, I thought I'd update the class on my findings. I've attached a photo showing the different orientations of the 228 carbs. "A" being parallel with the cylinders and "B" being Perpendicular.
Attachments
Screenshot_20230921_184544_Chrome.jpg (83.6 KB, 174 downloads)


~ Daniel Davidson
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Gearhead, Stovebolt Tech and Parts Tracker, Mod for Swap Meet and GTT
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Daniel,

Here is a bit of info on Zenith carb identification data posted from our very own Stovebolt member John "carbking"s website on Zenith carb identification.

It doesn't provide all the info, but does cover some basic identification data. Maybe of some help t you.

I have a feeling he will pop in here as he can and maybe provide more info on your topic. wink

Dan


~ Dan
1951 Chevy 3 window 3100
Follow this story in the DITY Gallery
"My Grandpa Carl's Truck and How it Became Mine"
1966 Chevelle (Wife's Hot Rod) | 2013 Chevy Silverado (Current daily driver)
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Originally Posted by Gdads51
Daniel,

Here is a bit of info on Zenith carb identification data posted from our very own Stovebolt member John "carbking"s website on Zenith carb identification.

It doesn't provide all the info, but does cover some basic identification data. Maybe of some help t you.

I have a feeling he will pop in here as he can and maybe provide more info on your topic. wink

Dan

Excellent resource, thank you. This solves the "c" in the equation as an automatic choke.

Another reference I found mentions the "11" and "12" as the flange size but I've also seen "174" and "175" as the throttle body size. Guess I'm not up to speed yet. I think the "175" refers to 2 15/16.

Last edited by Danielbolt; 09/22/2023 2:35 AM.

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The only things that comes to mind with 174 and 175 as regarding Zenith:

174 - (nothing)
175 - type 175CD (sidedraft English Zenith) carbs

As far as the flange sizes are concerned:

The S.A.E. flange sizes in question are the size 2 (2 11/16 inches center to center) and size 3 (2 15/16 inches center to center). Size 2 being used by Chevrolet on 216's, size 3 on 235's and 261's.

In Zenith terminology, size 2 is a 10, size 3 is a 12.

So think of the 11 as a 10 that wants to be a 12!!!

More to the point, throttle body bore size:

10 (size 2 with 1 7/16 inch throttle bore)
11 (size 2 with 1 9/16 inch throttle bore)
12 (size 3 with 1 11/16 inch throttle bore)

This just explains PHYSICAL dimensions. For air flow, one must consider the internal venturi size which Zenith expresses in millimeters.

For a given venturi size, a Zenith 12 will flow MARGINALLY more than a Zenith 11.

It should now be as clear as mud on a foggy night! wink

Jon


Good carburetion is fuelish hot air
The most expensive carburetor is the wrong one you attempt to modify.
If you truly believe "one size fits all," try walking a mile in your spouse's shoes!
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All this tells me one thing, put the Zenith carbs back on the shelf and find a Carter.


1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1956 Cadillac Sixty Special Fleetwood (The Godfather) | 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado (The Purple Knif) | 1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe | 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
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Jon,
Thanks so much for chiming in. I really appreciate your time.

With that being said, what other differences are there with the Zenith 228BV12 Carburetors? There are several different inner circle numbers for them.

Ill only use examples of 228s that are listed for GMC 270s. I found 7 different models under the truck kits link on your website.

They are:
11658 - 1954-1961 F350 HV400
11852 - 1955 Only FV370 FA410 FV410
11965 - 1956-1961 F350 FV400
11967 - 1956-1961 350 370 400
12058 - 1957-1959V350 370 SV370 Hydramatic
12059 - 1957-1959 FV350 FV370 Hydramatic
12496 1959-1960 Powerunit


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Since the GMC 270 came factory with a Zenith in the military trucks....would it not be easier to find the right carb from GMC sites>>>>> I am curious as I am running a 261 with a Carter and it is a lovely piece of kit.... as recommended by Carb King....... also had a Zenith rebuilt and sealed in a Zippock bag as it was wet from bench testing....... I think it is a 228-28>>> but the barn is far away today to verify the numbers.... one day I may do a carb switch but for now the Carter YF is doing just fine.....

Bob C.....


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Originally Posted by Otto Skorzeny
All this tells me one thing, put the Zenith carbs back on the shelf and find a Carter.
Not quite sure why you would tell him to shelf the zenith carb as I have found them very capable and reliable doing there job


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There are at least a couple of reasons for different models:

(1) different internal venturii sizes
(2) maybe slightly different linkage hook-ups.

From my post above: "This just explains PHYSICAL dimensions. For air flow, one must consider the internal venturi size which Zenith expresses in millimeters."

I don't know the exact range of venturii sizes available for the 228 size 12. I DO KNOW they offered a 28mm and a 40mm, with several inbetween.

Air flow in CFM (measured by Zenith):

28mm - 177
31mm - 214
34mm - 220
40mm - 265

Turn the clock back 70 years, and these were readily available from Zenith dealers (10 cent gasoline was also available wink ). I doubt very seriously if one will find much of a selection anywhere; but a good machinist can make them in different sizes.

The venturii in the 228 size 10 differ physically from the size 12. The chances anyone is going to reproduce these things in quantities great enough to get low prices is less than the probability of winning an argument with the IRS !!

So, if one wants to change venturii, one purchases various 228 size 12 (LOTS of applications other the GMC) for parts, or has one fabricated.

A common venturi found in the 228 size 12 GMC units is 34mm but they used both smaller and larger, depending on the mass of the vehicle, and the desired RPM of the engine.

The Carter 2100s YF many find desirable for the 235 Chevrolet, and some run on a 261 has a 1 5/16 inch venturi. Converting to metric is a tad over 33mm; thus the typical Zenith GMC 228 with a 34mm venturi will flow marginally more air.

The 228 does have a feature not found with the Carter YF. While virtually zero original equipment Zeniths came with an externally adjustable main jet; generally one may be added after the fact. If one lives in a mountainous terrain, and changes altitude frequently; one can recalibrate the carburetor for different altitudes simply by adjusting the screw. A second feature is a conventional accelerator pump, not a diaphragm.

Zenith produced "index cards", which are double sided 8 1/2 x 11 inches, ONE FOR EACH CARBURETOR. These things are virtually impossible to find.

Zenith also produced "Master Parts & Service" books FOR CARBURETORS IN PRODUCTION AT THE TIME OF PRINTING.

To get a list of most of the Zenith carburetors with their specifications requires the purchase of several different books printed at different years.

I have posted for decades that the Carter YF is an excellent, inexpensive carburetor (although those used to Rochester prices might get "sticker shock" when pricing a Carter wink ). The Zenith and Stromberg both are a better quality carburetor (OK, call the YF 92 out of a hundred, and the Stromberg/Zenith 96 out of a hundred) especially with ethanol diluted fuel from a reliability standpoint. But they are generally more expensive than the Carter.

And if I had a stovebolt 261, what would I use?

(3) three Carter type W-0 carbs on a normal 3x1 intake running solid linkage (sorry Jerry wink ) or a Corvette intake with three (3) Stromberg or Zenith sidedraft carburetors.

Jon


Good carburetion is fuelish hot air
The most expensive carburetor is the wrong one you attempt to modify.
If you truly believe "one size fits all," try walking a mile in your spouse's shoes!
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Originally Posted by Johnny N
Not quite sure why you would tell him to shelf the zenith carb as I have found them very capable and reliable doing there job

Just a joke due to the confusing array of variants and trying to find the "correct" one for his application. Finding the right Carter is a lot easier.


1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1956 Cadillac Sixty Special Fleetwood (The Godfather) | 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado (The Purple Knif) | 1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe | 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
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I should clarify that I am not trying to make a hot rod. I am putting in 3.40 gears and plan to drive it around town or maybe to meets at 50-55 tops. At 1:1 I should be at 2000-2500 rpms. The carburetor that I have is the Zenith 11658. It has a main Venturi of 34mm. Jon mentioned that it should be around 220cfm. Mine has an 1 11/16" throttle bore. 228BV12.

I found an equation that Jerry (hotrodlincoln) posted in an old comment where ((CID/2)*RPM)/1728. Based on this equation and that you can assume 90% Volumetric efficiency I should be about to run about 3250RPM AT 220CFM with the one carb.

Only above 3250RPM would I have any issues, am I thinking this through correctly?

Last edited by Danielbolt; 09/23/2023 2:20 AM.

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I have 2ea. 228 Zeniths (well, one says Bendix on the float-bowl casting) on an Offy manifold, mounted on a 261 with Fentons and an "RV" cam. The engine will pull zero vacuum, as near as the gauge will tell, at 2900 RPM. Above that and the vacuum starts to climb slightly. I have no idea what venturi size is. The present truck came to me with a 235 and YF Carter. I put that on my girlfriend's pickup when she was in a jam and never got it back. So one or the other and now both of the pair of 228s I bought for $25 50 years ago have been on various rigs since then. I did put kits sourced from Zenith in them one time. Now they could use throttle shafts. As they say, "reliable as a stone axe."

Just as a point of reference on carb sizes, I have a 500CC Matchless-single scrambler that came with the equivalent of the 32mm Amal carb it now has. The optional "GP" carburetor was 1-3/8 venturi but had no idle circuit for the street. All this on 30 cubic inches per cylinder (times one). That would be like a 180 cu in six but turning 6,000 RPM.


1951 3800 1-ton
"Earning its keep from the get-go"
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1962 261 (w/cam, Fenton headers, 2 carbs, MSD ign.), SM420 & Brown-Lipe 6231A 3spd aux. trans, stock axles & brakes. Owned since 1971.
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What size jets does your 228s have for the 261 setup? I'm having trouble finding any info on jet sizing other than people talking about adjustable jets. As of now, I don't plan on having much altitude variation. I live at 1300'.

I was able to find that my Zenith 11658 has a C52-7-34 Main Jet. Some of the other Zenith 228s for 270s have C52-7-33 Main Jets. One would assume the 34 has a slightly larger orfice.

Last edited by Danielbolt; 09/24/2023 5:16 PM.

~ Daniel Davidson
1939/1940 Chevrolet/GMC
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Originally Posted by Danielbolt
What size jets does your 228s have for the 261 setup? I'm having trouble finding any info on jet sizing other than people talking about adjustable jets. As of now, I don't plan on having much altitude variation. I live at 1300'.

I was able to find that my Zenith 11658 has a C52-7-34 Main Jet. Some of the other Zenith 228s for 270s have C52-7-33 Main Jets. One would assume the 34 has a slightly larger orfice.

Sorry, I don't know. mine both have adjustable main jets, which is both a blessing and a curse. You'll just have to start with the stock jetting and vary it from there.

I live a 2,000 feet but regularly travel from sea level to 6.000 feet. I find that the idle mix needs adjustment if I'm at altitude. When I get to the low desert (cold, dry air) I richen up the mains a quarter turn. If I don't, a valve begins to stick open as the guides are a bit too tight. Along with that there is the danger of a burnt piston.


1951 3800 1-ton
"Earning its keep from the get-go"
In the DITY Gallery
1962 261 (w/cam, Fenton headers, 2 carbs, MSD ign.), SM420 & Brown-Lipe 6231A 3spd aux. trans, stock axles & brakes. Owned since 1971.
Joined: May 2015
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So I was able to find some additional info. You divide the last number by 20 to get the orfice size in mm. Mine is 34/20=1.7mm. A 33 is 1.65mm.


~ Daniel Davidson
1939/1940 Chevrolet/GMC
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