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Hi. Trying to correctly reassemble a stomp starter circa 1954. After it's all put together and during bench-running I'm noticing that the armature actually slides up and down in their respective bushings -- almost 1/2" -- what the...!

Is this normal?

Nope - not normal!

Sounds like you may have a broken or missing snap ring on the drive housing end of the armature shaft (see the 2 pics below snapped from a 1954 Shop Manual which would be same as your 1955 1st Series starter).

I believe that snap ring is meant to keep the shaft from excessive end-to-end movement when the starter is all assembled.

Helpful???

Dan

Thanks for the quick reply, Dan
I too have that service manual and also rechecked that snap ring position. Isn't that the same snap ring that integrates with the end spacer that holds the clutch drive in place (from flying off the armature shaft)? It's on the second notch down from the end of the shaft.

Seems like I'm missing some other important spacer part that keeps the shaft down into the lower bushing, 'cause right now it's floating whenever it's energized. This might also be causing the drive/pinion from not reaching its max throw for full flywheel engagement ??

There is a snap ring item 16 AND a spacer item 12 shown in the diagram. You are missing the spacer.
You could be using the wrong words "notch"..."second notch". There is a step/shoulder for the spacer, then further down probably a snap ring groove.

Perhaps I have several issues here.

Background:
This starter has been in the truck for at least 25 years -- since I've owned it. I've pulled it before for only brushes replacement, never needing to check anything else out.

A few weeks back it just wouldn't start -- zippo. So it was dismantled and cleaned up.
What I found were brushes worn out (one, down to its holder).
I cleaned up the whole unit including the commutator. And reused some near-new brushes I had in storage.
Put it all back together again like it was, and this time it spun right up. But now it refused to properly engage with the flywheel -- just grinding!

Out it came again right away. And that's when I decided to delve deeper into its hardware. First I checked the ring gear through the starter opening and it appeared still ok -- whew!

What I later found was that the clutch drive did not extend all the way out (only about 3/16" into the flywheel). This was especially true with the stomp switch installed.
But without the switch in, the switch leaver was able to travel further and thus extend the clutch drive a tad further -- right up to it's stop washer.
Again, with the switch reinstalled the clutch drive would only travel within say, 1/8" of the stop washer.

There appears to be a 10 mm difference in the length of the armature shaft to the total length of the case (measured at the nose cone opening).
Hence, all those washers you see in the pic that someone had previously added. Even they don't add up to enough to prevent longitudinal travel.

I now wonder if this armature is the wrong one for this starter shell ..too short??

Anyway, looking at the pics you may also be able to see how I have populated the end of the armature.
At its very end, is the first empty 'notch' (which is more of an indent), the second 'notch' contains the special clutch drive stop washer with its contained lock washer.
I assume the rest of the flat washers are to fill in for longitudinal movement (which are still not enough to prevent it from floating).

This motor seemed to work well before the brushes went bye bye. But maybe it was just barely accessing the flywheel too.
The clutch drive bench tests ok. Albeit,1/2" shorter than the one specified for this starter edition -- another clue??

Delco Remy armature number is: #1867897 Starter motor field shell with brush end is stamped: #1814231 Clutch drive: no id


Appreciating your help here in trying to salvage this motor.

The Master Parts Catalog doesn't show those 3 flat washers in your picture #3..

Nope. Which adds to my suspicion that the armature was a mismatch to the core, as is the clutch drive. I'm surprised it lasted this long with no damage to the other engine components, especially when spun at 12 volts!

Whatever, I need to find a diy solution to make this work.
Perhaps machining another ring groove, and more spacers -- or one big one. And a different model drive mechanism??




Btw, is there a cross reference for the starter parts numbers listed above -- like, which belongs with which?

Lots of problems here, lots of trickle out info. Including 12V conversion. Someone has taken some sort of a starter and tried to make some sort of a starter. I hope you can show us the armature number you see stamped on it becasue it's not a 1867897. I hope you didn't just give that number from another source. If it is stamped, it's been modified. Also, obviously they didn't use hardware store washers as spacers.
The starter is a DIY messed up wan-a-be 12V starter and needs to be abandoned. THERE IS NO MORE DIY left in it. Buy a proper starter for what motor, ring gear and voltage you have.

That looks like a 12v starter with the smaller drive gear which will not mesh well with a 54 flywheel

Thanks for this conversation and helping with my knowledge.

Here are some pics of the core and armature numbers. Do they belong with each other?

So, after many years of being stranded, 6 years ago I converted the electrics over to 12 vdc. An internally regulated alternator was also used.

The 6 volt starter was kept as is (yes, the core number seems to confirm 6 volt). And bastard or not it has been reliable, until now.

It would be fun to make this thing work even better than previously. Buying a "new" pricey starter will suck the enjoyment out of owning this beloved rattle trap.

Could I just find another longer clutch drive (like the one specified for this starter ie, sdn73) then lathe/spin-cut in a new lock ring goove further along the end shaft, so the clutch drive can extend further up to that new stop washer/lock ring position?
Then add the necessary shims to lessen the end play?

I do not recommend continuing with that starter. The armature shaft has been modified and who knows what else.
BUT:

There is a step/shoulder on a 1867897. This is a transition to a smaller diameter on the nose portion of the stock shaft. The stock spacer/thrust washer goes on that smaller diameter and that smaller diameter fits into the nose bushing. That is what keeps the shaft retained from moving, and at the commutator end it's retained by the end plate. Shaft is supposed to be sandwiched between nose and end plate. The retaining ring shown in the diagram is for the clutch assembly. Does not attach to the armature shaft as you know. There are no retaining ring grooves on 1867897.

It seems your shaft was shortened and lost the shoulder and the smaller diameter section of the nose end of shaft. So they added a retaining ring groove and a retaining ring for the spacer/thrust washer to bear against and act as a shoulder to retain the shaft. But then must have modified the nose hole/bushing to receive the larger shaft. Then another person added washers. But as you say, the washers keep the pinion gear from extending into the ring gear... or something does. You need to figure out why the pinion gear travel is less with switch and levers on. Several issues to get right.

1867897 was superseded by 1917855. both obsolete but available on Ebay, etc. because used in so many starters including John Deere.

I guess we have to assume your shaft was shortened to fit into a 12V starter from somewhere. Don't know.]

You can tell whether an early Chevrolet or GMC starter is 6 volt or 139 ring gear teeth because the starter drive pulls out straight. The armature has straight splines. The 12 volt or 168 tooth ring gear starters have helical splines on the armature and will twist when pulled out.
Also the "exposed end of the starter shaft on the 12V starter will be approx. .470 while the 6V starter has a shaft diameter of closer to 5/8". Maybe that's how the chopped shaft fits in the nose.

There is a phenolic thrust washer on the commutator end that could be worn or missing. Maybe that could cause movement.

I don't know if Ken is still in business, hasn't posted for a long time. But he will help you with any starter questions, parts and rebuild. Really good guy. classicgenerator.com
Email him from the website.
On Stovebolt he is kennethw

Hi again.

So here's what developed:
Yes, something not quite right with that armature. But not having anything else to compare the starter motor too, I was at a total loss. Until you twigged my curiosity.
I happened to recall a box of generator and starter parts that came with the truck eons ago.

I located the box and in it was another armature that looked like the ones you showed (and similar to my service manual). It had no id number anywhere on it though.

See attached pics.

So, I cleaned it up and installed it into the existing core (1814231). It fit perfectly, and both your details and those of the manual's played out -- thanks.
Then it was bench tested. It ran well, but drew about 80 amps at 12 volts (compared to 55 amps with previous mismatched armature in the previous pics).

After testing I installed it into the truck. Hooked up the battery ..and... AGAIN IT STARTED GRINDING.
It just refuses to engage the flywheel, like before with the mismatched armature.

I disconnected the battery and tried to manually work the lever and Nope, just sounds like the drive pinion is banging up against the flywheel without threading into its teeth.

I may have mentioned that those teeth on the flywheel still seem intact. At least those what I can see through the starter port (before installation).

I tried moving the crank a few degrees, but still the drive pinion just won't engage.


What the heck is going on??
Where do I go from here?


I wouldn't think applying 12 volts would affect engagement, as it hasn't been a problem even with the old mismatched armature --- until it was reinstalled after cleaning and new brushes, and then it too no longer engaged.
..and that's what started this "adventure"

Count teeth on pinion. Count teeth on fly wheel. Turn flywheel exactly 90 degrees as you count and multiply by four. Report numbers. Don't guess.
Grinding noise can be not engaging at all, weak engagement or clutch slip, broken/worn teeth, foot levers/pivot points worn, not enough throw with unknown starter parts, starter growling, etc etc. Start with making sure pinion and flywheel gears are matched correctly.

I know it's hard to beat logic of it was working for so long and now it doesn't, but sometimes you have to forget that and start over. Especially when odd modified parts are discovered and parts were taken apart and possibly miss assembled.....or as things wear out.

Keep this previous comment in the back of your mind "There is a phenolic thrust washer on the commutator end that could be worn or missing. Maybe that could cause movement.".......or could cause weak engagement.

Very difficult to find the problem from our house. You need to be studying the situation carefully using us as a guide.

What do you suggest as a way to view and count the flywheel teeth without removing the cover under the engine clutch bell housing?
And I guess I should also pull the s-plugs, etc?

Btw, I know that both previous and current pinions have 9 teeth. Although this latest armature with clutch drive has bigger and deeper pinion teeth.
It does not engage at all. When bench testing and moving the lever against the switch, it had full throw to the washer and bushing at the nose cone.
When I try the same thing in the truck (without battery) there is quite a bit of resistance in the lever and switch, suggesting that the clutch drive sheave is compressing its spring when trying to drive the pinion into the flywheel -- just not able to engage.

This truck had always been original 6 volt before I changed over just the basic electrics to 12 volt some years back.
The only major thing I changed was the generator to an alternator. Everything else has pretty much remained the same.
And it all worked well until recently.

Pull the cover, take out plugs and always remember I said to abandon the starter and buy the proper one and you said it's a joy to fix it.

Both 6V and 12V have 9 teeth but different pitch. Hard to tell one from the other, usually go by the armature shaft diameter if no other way. In your case I don't know if I would trust that or not. Now you say you notice a difference in pinions. 6V pinion gear is slightly larger than 12V supposedly. 6V flywheel = 139 teeth.

I believe "slightly larger" pinion means OD. But shaft diameter is the approved method. You need calipers for that stuff not a carpenters tape.

Yer right, when this stuff happens it's hard to rationalize the word, 'joy'
And yes it's getting harder to further justify the hassle when yer in yer 70s. But my nature is to persevere.

Anyway, around here new "specialty" starters are in the $C600+ range. Chinese rebuilds or knockoffs, half that!
And there's no guarantee that a new starter is gonna take care of the problem when I have yet to determine the cause of it.

I'm now quite sure that I've rebuilt this starter correctly -- everything seems to match ..and works together.

Whether it's the correct starter for this truck, that's yet to be discovered, huh.
Maybe the previous owner had that same problem and tried to adapt the starter guts to make it work. And it kinda did until it didn't -- who knows.



So, the previous pinion gear on the "mystery armature" was definitely smaller (almost more delicate) ..maybe you can see the comparison with the 5th posting pics?
The diameter on that shaft and this current one is: 11.86 mm (.467 in)




Ok. Even just for my own satisfaction I'll attempt to crawl under and complete your instructions to confirm tooth count.
I'll also see if I can view up into the starter area for pinion gear contact




Btw, this engine was a rebuilt '57 235 and again ran for eons, all at 6 volt.

The 6 volt and 12 volt have different tooth count flywheels. 6 volt pinion will not properly engage the 12 volt flywheels and vice versa. That is why bartamos want a tooth count on your current flywheel.

I understand and will soon get back to you with that info. Maybe with some pics too

Somewhere I have info on how many teeth per inch or so of flywheel diameter for both 139 and 168 tooth flywheels. I'm looking.

Everything you said shows you are right on with thinking. Finish the examination and we will get this solved.
You've been trying to fool us. Your handle is 55firstseries, your first post says Circa 1954 and now a 57 motor. I am getting dizzy with all this.

A 1957 Chevy motor is 12V

1. Six years ago you converted what? The motor is 12V stock 1957 Chevy......AYE!!!!!!!!!
2. Why would a 57 motor have anything but a 12V flywheel and starter?
3. How could it have been running on 6V before "conversion"?
4 Per your measurement, starter with .467 shaft is 12V if stock components.

Are we being punked?

Wow, Bill. Thanks for that thread reference. I'm now eagerly waiting until I can recheck my flywheel.
Using some of the counting shortcuts outlined in that short thread, I wonder if it can be accomplished just through the starter mounting port?
Meh, maybe it'd be better to yank the cover so I can inspect the whole area while I'm at it, including the starter pinion/flywheel mesh.

Also, reading further into those posts I noticed that the swing to 12 volt/168 tooth flywheels happened with the 1955 2nd series trucks.

As mentioned, my unofficial records show that the engine is a rebuilt 1957 235 (done in 1986).
In that case, it stands to reason that the flywheel here might just be a 168.

We'll see. Please stand by

No, bartamos. I'm not trying to screw with you or anyone. This mystery is as baffling to me as to you.

I didn't think that info you reiterated was important at the beginning of the thread because I thought there was a logical simple fix to my issue -- and I just hadn't thought of it.

But after our conversation I began to ask most of the same questions as you about my truck's history.

Much of it has been lost in the back of my mind, as I do not think about this vehicle on a very constant basis. Except for the odd starting issue, the truck has most always just worked for me.

Anyway, I'm beginning to think that the 1957 engine is playing a greater part in this saga than I thought it would.

It does stand to reason that the engine may have been an off the shelf rebuilt 235, rather than the original engine being rebuilt.

The story is that this truck was wrecked in a fire in New Mexico and was subsequently resurrected and sold to a few owners behind me.
It eventually made its way to Canada where the young new owner rehabbed it. Including body work and drive train and engine.
I took it from there and improved on some things including a 'new' Blazer rear end (1997).

So I doubt any of the numbers match. And I didn't care as it was purchased only as a daily driver. I grew up with these vehicles around me, so...

Yes, after driving it for many years my wife and I got fed up with it not starting at the most inopportune times. And was determined to put an end to that by converting the electrics to 12 volts.
I didn't touch the starter per se (just new brushes) as I knew that it would run ok on 12 volts. Which it did for these last 6 or so years.

Now it will spin but won't engage the flywheel and I'm determined to find out why!
I still use this truck for our yard work, etc. and will need it shortly with Fall debris hauling.

Now, the measurements I gave to you are correct. And the starter core that I put this latest armature into I think is 6 volts (by my Delco Remy research on the core) (see above).
And this latest armature does fit the core well -- all of the parts now match any illustrations and videos I've seen.
The only chore I haven't done is head on down to the local autoelectric repairer and get their take on it.

If the flywheel proves to be a 168 (12 volt) then my new assumptions will be that the previous owner tried to adapt this 6 volt starter by changing out the armature with a 9 tooth clutch drive pinion that is compatible to 168 flywheel.
Even though that (previous) armature and clutch drive were shorter (and thus it had ridiculous longitudinal movement), it was still a risky fit into the flywheel, as it did not engage 100%.
Perhaps when I cleaned it up and rebushed it, that was the straw that broke its back. So it failed to engage anymore at that higher speed.

But I donno that for sure yet.

Please stay with me

I'm with you but can't do much more. I'll be back in the care center soon when they do a bed check. I'm older than you so better hurry and get all the questions in.

Bed check. You crack me up, bartamos.

My wife does my bed checking

USA rebuilt Starter 12V 6cyl with new foot switch ......$235 USD.......and $288 USD

12V starter drive for 55.2-59.... $21 USD made in USA

This is what happens after decades of good intentioned mechanics get done monkeying with a truck. The engine when rebuilt was probably just a core to the rebuilder. It came back as a long or short block and was finished out by the shop mechanic or owner using what parts came off the engine that was sent off. The returned engine may or may not be the one sent off for the rebuild. The engine you current have could have been an off the shelf replacement from a rebuilder like Jasper Engines. Your engine very well could have a 6 volt flywheel and a 12 volt starter trying to feed it. It is my understanding that the wrong combination sometimes will actually work but for a very shortened lifespan.
You’ve got this under control and will hopefully soon be back on the road. bartamos is a good helper and as long as he makes his bed checks on time he will get us through this head scratcher.

Using Deve's method, this is what I found (see pics).

Correct me if I'm wrong but it does appear to be a 12 volt/168 tooth flywheel (5 teeth per 1").
If so, then that kinda confirms what the previous owner was trying to achieve, albeit hit and miss with the potential for ring gear damage.
He was also using 6 volts at the time. So when I converted to 12 volts it was further pushing the envelope, huh.

So an OEM 6 volt starter pinion gear will not engage with 12 volt ring gear. Period.



And lookee what I found in that box-o-stuff hidden in the back shed.. (see pics)

Haven't checked if the parts match for a complete starter.
If so, then will need to meter test it all.
Then trade in some brushes from the "problem" unit, and then run it.

Maybe I can also use one of the nose cones from the 2 that are here ..like the problem one that originally had the mismatched "12 volt" armature in the 6 volt core

For what it's worth, here are some pics of the shaft diameter on my 6V starter. Supposedly the 12V has a larger shaft where the gear rides. It would be an easy way to check to see whether your found starter armature is 6 or 12V.
Although the spiral splines vs straight splines on the 6V starter should be a dead giveaway.
[on edit] those spiral splines may be for a solenoid operated starter, not a stomp starter.

It appears that I may now be in the ballpark -- just have to meter, then bench test the unit.

Howabout the co-relation with the armature and the core numbers -- do they belong together in that same 12v core?

The clutch drive fits. Although I cannot confirm it's proper application 'cause there's no id on it.
If I can get some dimensions on a SDN8 clutch drive (which is appropriate for this starter core), then I can check those against this guy here.

GM parts catalog shows the case no. 1107634...............12V 6 cyl
Chart poted by Kevin in 12/22
We here on stovebolt have been carrying around the statement that 12V shaft is .470 and 6v "is closer to 5/8". Kevin shows 9/16 (.562) for 6V. So we should change that "closer to 5/8"...... to.......... 9/16 .562

55firstseries measures .467 for the 12V shaft. .469 is 15/32 so we should change that .470 to .469 15/32.

Back then, and now, designers/machinist choose fractions, if they have a choice, as a nominal dimension.
Of course there is a .001x or .002x tolerance. Sliding fit.

So armature shafts are 12V= 15/32 (.469) and 6V= 9/16 (.562) as one way to identify a starter. A little more precise than 1/2 and 5/8.

Ok. I've determined that this latest starter effort is 12 volt -- armature measurement is confirmed on this "new" armature (see pic).
Thanks for posting that info.


Btw, while waiting for the paint to dry..
I snap pics of the engine block and with the starter removed (see pics).

Can someone please tell me where I can find more about this engine block vis a vis the raised numbers, and the stamped number near the distributor?
I'd like to confirm my past information.
The cyl head, I'm not concerned with at this time.

Also, I test drove the clutch drive by fitting it to a nose cone and inserted its pinion into the flywheel. It seem to dry-mesh ok.
But that same clutch drive also looks a little beaten at the ends of its pinion gear (see pic).
Do you think this will greatly impair engagement?

File just the leading ends of the gear a little to regain shape. Just! the tip. I believe the wear is from slamming flywheel during engagement. It should operate at semi full tooth contact and be OK if tips are "deburred". (Slight lead-in chamfer)

The cast numbers guys will chime in I'm sure.

Hey, thanks. I will do that. Maybe touch it up with my air dremel disk

Howabout the ring gear ..if they are burred a bit from the grinding, will they eventually wear-in back to normal?

Again with the armature -- a previous rebuilder left it with mica undercut.

I read that this is a no-no for starters as the brushes are not carbon but a copper powder and will fill in the gaps between commutator segments.

Will this be something of concern?

I think if you are sure the gears are correct, the drive is clean and operating and correct assembly of starter, you should move forward with install and you will have some answers. You are asking questions that we can only guess at. Ease into the test. Plugs out, then plugs in.

Why plugs out -- to lessen resistance when testing on-vehicle ?

Yes, initially you are looking/listening for trouble with engagement. Right? Isn't that what the trouble is/was? So seems prudent to start out easy.
Another suggestion is: safely operate the lever from under the hood to observe any throw issues with the mechanism that would prevent engagement. You have mentioned many times about switch on/switch off causing engagement problems or something like that. So be careful of the dreaded "two or three things wrong at once syndrome".