The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Cowl Side Advice Requested - 52 3100

With new floor, cab corners and kick board repairs tacked in (pictures included, grinding and refinement later when I can take it all outside), I am ready to start on the side cowls. Let's start with the driver side (pictures included). Before anyone wonders where they saw parts of the rotisserie before, they are Kevin Hansen originals and I will pass them on just as soon as I complete the cab work. After the 4 cab corner pictures, please see the "parts catalog" of what I have to work with on the driver side, side cowl(s). As you can see, I tried to preserve the relationship between the 3 original side cowl pieces as I "hacked them off". I have noticed what the forums have asserted that the replacement cowl side inner panel does not have the same curvature as the original one. Notice that I also acquired the lower cowl side inner panel patch even though I have a complete cowl side inner panel replacement (because I read that in the forums). Now for 3 pictures of where I am currently on removing the old and preparing for the replacement parts on the driver side, side cowl(s). I noticed that the driver side door had creased the original cowl side panel so I am on the lookout for any "inside damage" while I have the guts exposed. Do you see any? That's it! What I am looking for from this post is for those of you who have experienced this side cowl work, to save me from making any of the mistakes you may have made while doing the same repairs, and to share with me any pointers for "doing it right". PS. I know only too well that the better you are at welding, the less grinding you have to do... I have a lot of grinding to do, but I do check for good penetration with each weld. Thank you for any and all responses. Pat Gibney, Raleigh, NC

When the over-extended door creases the outer cowl, it tends to twist the hinge pillar toward the front of the vehicle.
When you assemble the outer cowl, inner cowl, and inner-to-outer cowl, don't tack weld them. Use small hex head self tapping screws. Pre-drill the outer panel so that the panel stays in place while the screw drills through the metal under it.
You will find that you will need to do a lot of repositioning of panels to create the perfect hole for the door to fit in.
When you are screwing these panels in place, locate the screws where a spot weld would normally be. That way you will have a hole already in place to weld the panel into place permanently once your door fits and latches.

Pat, Looks like a good start. Carl's suggestion on using self tapping screws is a good thing.

I think that any hinge pillar twist caused by the door over-extending will be a problem, as cutting the outer cowl away should relieve the pull on it. Your crease doesn't look like it would have caused any permanent displacement of the hing pillar.

My suggestion on placement of the outer cowl is to measure, measure, measure, and measure again.Be sure the door fits before committing to welding that piece in. Measure across the opening at intervals below the belt line, comparing those opening measurements to the door width at the corresponding intervals.

You're planning on using the whole outer panel, which I think is a good plan. I only used the lower section of the outer panel, because the upper part was still in decent shape.

Kevin and 52Carl; somehow, I knew that you two would come to my rescue. Thanks.

I am guilty of a rookie mistake that this build may not recover from: I never looked at how the doors fit before I started to disassemble the cab. I am enclosing pictures of the truck as I bought it and drove it for some months without ever being cognizant of a significant door fit issue. On the positive side, the truck had a lot of solid structure before I started restoration.

So I took the doors off, welded in support structures to preserve the geometry just as it was on the frame. Fitted in Kevin's custom made door braces, and built a rotisserie around Kevin's braces. I removed the floor but kept the back of the seat frame as a reference point for replacing the entire floor. The rear of the seat brace gave me an upper bound for fitting the new floor.

So once the floor was completely removed, I had the cab media blasted and that is where the driver side door damage became evident, as well as the rust holes in the kickboard and the inner cowl panels. I fixed the kickboard first to give me a solid front reference for installing the new floor. Once I had the floor secure (front and back, not left and right), I cut out the rear corners because they were poorly done and the "poorly done" was hidden by lots of "mud". With the new corners tacked in, I finally secured the back of the floor to the lock pillars, and the bottom of the lock pillars to the back of the rocker panels.

Now turning my attention to the cowls, I first checked that 8.xx number that Kevin has referenced in the forums for ensuring that the tab on the front of the rocker panel (I can never remember that phrase, "rocker panel"... it just does not compute for me) was correctly positioned relative to FOD (front of dash). The measurements were within a couple of hundredths on both sides. That made me feel good relative to floor placement.

I don't notice any twist to the driver side hinge pillar as a result of the door damage to the outer cowl, but that does not mean it is not present. When doing the cab corners and ensuring the "lines" matched to the remaining lines on the lock pillar, I discovered that the width of the bottom of the driver side door is maybe 3/8 inch longer when compared to the bottom of the passenger side door. I made sure to preserve that difference as I tacked in the cab corners.

So here we are at the cowls. Please correct me or adjust my approach. Here is what I am thinking:

I THINK I can tack in the inner cowl (side kick panel) before I deal with the other 2 cowl pieces. Yes? If I can get the inner cowl fitted to the kick board and firewall up front, the hinge pillar on the other side of the inner cowl, and properly positioned the inner cowl at the bottom between the rocker panel and the bottom of the hinge pillar, that gives me a firm foundation for dealing with the other 2 cowl pieces. Please confirm or give me some perspective to change my approach.
Now for the two outer pieces of the cowl structure. It is clear to me that the curvature of the replacement cowl side rail does not match the curvature of the original one. I have read enough to know that I have to work that out. I am aware of the FAM measurements for ensuring that the fender mount holes in the outer cowl are positioned correctly from the horizontal ground zero, but I also marked the sides of Kevin's door braces with marks for the top and bottom of each of the original fender holes, hoping that I could position the replacement outer cowl with its fender holes tracking to the marks on Kevin's door brace. I know this is no substitute for a true ground zero measurement so I will keep noodling about how to ensure I get it right on the positioning of the outer cowl piece.

That's it for now and thank you again for caring to take the time to help this rookie think through next steps.

Pictures

Pretty amazing how a good looking (from 50 ft anyway) restoration hides so much rust damage.

I wouldn't depend on fender mounting holes to position the outer cowl panel. Those can be redrilled if needed. The critical thing is door gaps. If you have the hinge pillar welded to the rocker, it may be too late to fix that, although if you find the dimensions too far off, I'd be cutting welds out. The FAM has dimensions from front of firewall to the hinge pillar locations that you should at least check.

Kevin;

the hinge pillars are not attached to the rockers... I guess that is a good thing at this point in time. I did however, weld the lock pillars to the rockers. I guess what is bugging me here is that I took the time to brace "all directions" to ensure that I did not lose the original dimensions of the truck. I worry that if I take out the door braces and the other tubing that I welded from lock-pillar-to-hinge-pillar and from hinge-pillar-to-hinge-pillar and more, BEFORE I solidify the cowls, that I risk losing some of the original dimensions that I supposedly locked in via bracing. Then again, the only dimensions I risk losing are around the hinge pillars, since the lock pillars are already locked in.

So perhaps it is time for me to get the cab off the rotisserie, remove your door braces and set the cab up for accurate level zero measurements (I can already do accurate FOD measurements). and to set the doors in place BEFORE I lock in the hinge pillars and the cowls. Yes?
Do I leave the passenger side cowl metal in place until I get the driver side cowls done?


BTW I had Jerry Kassis from The Filling Station in Oregon rebuild my original hinges.
As always, I appreciate your considered guidance.

Yes, not having the hinge pillars welded to the rockers is good. That lets you work on getting them exactly correct.

I don't think you'd go wrong installing the doors to confirm or fix the dimensions in the cab. I know that would be a bit of a PITA, but you'd avoid the issues I had with my doors, having to grind the edges down for clearance in a few spots. It would be better in the long run to get the door openings where they should be.

I think I would leave the passenger side metal in place until the driver's side is done.

as they say in the movies... "so let it be written, so let it be done". I am on it... will report in (or cry out loud) as I proceed to do the cowls and door clearances. Thanks

As of 071023, all 3 driver side, side cowl pieces have been removed (see pictures). The outside edge of the driver side hinge pillar was in fact, tilted inward as a result of the door having impacted the outside cowl section at some point in the past. I teased that edge back to were my eye says it should be. At this point, I know I have to pay close attention to the FAM welding numbers to make sure the cowl pieces go back in the right place. I will be doing that and also checking the door openings FAM data before I start replacing metal. Here comes a question: It looks to me like my cowl side inner panel (side kick panel) fits pretty well "out of the box" (scary huh?). I am wondering if I Cleeco that panel in place if that will suffice as a first step. After that, it looks like I have to work the other 2 pieces as a unit in order to assure that I adhere to the FAM specs for distances to FOD and distances from horizontal line 0. While I am at it, please correct me if I am in error on this point: Line 0 is 11.88 inches below top of floor. Since my new floor is solidly welded front and back, as well as to both lock pillars, I am going to cut corners on the "line 0" numbers and just subtract 11.88 from the line 0 FAM references and use the top of the new floor as the new line 0. U OK with that? Also, I have decided that IF my FAM numbers look good relative to door opening specs, I am NOT going to remove my scaffolding (bracing) in order to complete my cowl repairs, including welding the hinge pillars to the rocker panels. When I drove the truck for a number of months before I disassembled it, I did not recall any door misalignment issues so I am going to take a chance and complete the cab metal replacement work before I take the bracing off to fit the doors. I know this is risky but I fear that if I remove bracing to analyze current door fitment, I may enable some twisting of the overall cab structure that I might not be able to recover from. OK... so I am stressing getting these last sets of cab metal replaced, but I gotta keep plowing ahead.... Thanks

Well done, Yul - er Gib. Let us hope a plague of locusts doesn't befall your house.

I think you'd be OK starting with the inner cowl panel. That needs to be in place before finalizing the weld to the rocker anyway.

You can also use your floor as a vertical reference as long as you remember to subtract that 11.88" from zero line to floor.

I'm not sure I'd take a chance on assuming the door opening is OK. I fell into that trap and wound up shaving some metal off the edge of one of my doors. I think you can use the belt molding on the door and the cab to establish the opening without removing your bracing (unless absolutely necessary to adjust). Measure down from the belt molding at regular intervals (maybe a foot) on both the door and the cab pillars and then measure horizontally at each of those locations.

Plow carefully.

Thanks Kevin... I will do the measurements as you suggest on the door and I will report back the results... might take a week of so.

Looking for hints and tips for how to beat the top of the outer cowl replacement metal to mate better with the edge of the upper cowl (see pictures)... I tried to build a wooden mold but... I am a worse woodworker than I am a welder. The side cowl was spot welded to the upper cowl, so they almost need to "kiss" uniformly across the shape of the edge of the top cowl in order to put back what I cut out. Advice please? Thanks

If you have access to a longer pair of c clamp type vise grips you can reach that area to clamp it together thru the hole in the front of your second picture. I had to do mine that way when I replaced the same part. If you are not sure what vise grip I am talking about I will get you a picture of it.

Southerntruck... thanks for the idea... I will give it a try in the next few days and post results... of course, I will just be "Cleecoing" the pieces together for now, but the clamps in the right places should allow me to get the two areas close enough for welding. Thanks

Cleeco's work great.

Question on FAM Reference Number 6 (Hood Hinge Bottom Hole, see pictures): I am fitting the driver's side inner cowl (kick panel). I am trying to get the hood hinge bottom hole positioned correctly to FOD. The spec Ref # 6 says 3.22 and 3.72 which implies that the hole is half inch... HOWEVER, the hole in the replacement panel (which has a nut behind it) is only quarter inch.

Now I am sure FAM is correct and I am "confused". If the FAM refers to the hole in the upper cowl that the side cowl slides under, well it is more than a half inch.

Help me get my head straight... and thanks!

I can do the math, if I have the right hole (Reference # 6) correctly identified and if the hole in the replacement metal is only 1/4 inch then for FOD measurements I add .125 for the near side measurement and for the far side, I subtract .125 giving me 3.345 and 3.595 for horizontal numbers. That should position the 1/4 inch hole correctly to where the FAM identified a 1/2 inch hole.

You're on the right track, Pat.

I've always wondered why GM used the edges of the holes for dimensions rather than the centers. It's not that hard to measure to the center of a hole.

The tolerances on the dimensions are pretty loose overall anyway, with most being +/- 1/16"

As of 072323, we have the driver side, outer side cowl and inner side cowl "Cleeco'd" in with pretty good fit. Adhering to the FAM for Ref #'s 1, 2, 3 and 6, with one exception, the height from the 0 line for hood hinge bottom hole (Ref # 6). The spec says it should be a little lower than I have it, but examining the passenger side and recalling what it looked like on the driver side from the original metal, I am leaving it where it is, hoping if it is off a little bit north-and-south, that there is enough available adjustment in the hood hinges to accommodate. We also compared the door measurements to the opening between the hinge pillar and the lock pillar in a few places. I made sure that I had at least 1/4 inch wider between the pillars than the door itself measured at the same places, allowing for at least 1/8 inch gap all the way around. in some of the pictures, you can see that I cut an oak stick 34.4 inches in length and it fit fine between the bottom of the hinge pillar and the bottom of the lock pillar. The door bottom measured 34.15 inches in width.

Now for the part where I need some wisdom from the crew (YOU). I am looking for advice on how to approach the cowl side rail. It is obvious to me that it needs major surgery if it to fit as well as the original. Hell, it does not even match the "curve" of the replacement outer cowl piece to which it is supposed to be welded, even though I sourced both pieces from the same vendor. For example, do I make it fit the outer cowl piece first, and then adapt it to the new inner cowl piece (the kick panel if you will) as a unit (outer cowl and cowl side rail)... ??

Many thanks to all for caring to help me along this journey to have a zero rust cab from which to build upon.

Pat
You should see how much I sliced and diced the inner to outer cowl piece ( I think that's what you were calling a cowl side rail) on my cab. Yours likely will need the same treatment. Scroll back through my pics (the Flikr link around page 3) and you can see some of the things I did.

Kevin;
I can see what you did from your pictures, please enlighten me on how you were able to define the shape you wanted to get for the inner-to-outer cowl piece. For example, did you use the curve that is stamped into the outer cowl piece to define the side view of the curve? How did you scribe that shape you wanted onto the side of the inner cowl (kick panel). If I can see it, I know I can make it happen. I know that the bottom of the inner-to-outer cowl piece has to line up with the holes in the rocker panel.

One technique may be to just cut the inner-to-outer cowl piece in half, then fit the bottom to the rocker panel and then fit the top to the top of the outer cowl and then make the curve work as you form the two pieces back together.

Please se enclosed picture. I convinced myself that the curve in the outer cowl piece fit my fender correctly, so I thought I might make that curve the defining parameter for shaping the inner-to outer cowl curve.
Thanks

Pat, What I did was keep try fitting the inner-to-outer cowl piece in place. I actually cut out more than needed (along the joint between the rear and outer part of the piece) and had to weld in a bit more steel to fill the gap that I made after getting the fit correct. Most of my cutting was vertically, and I tried quite a few positions of rotation (bottom fixed and top moved back and forth) to get the fit how I liked it. There were wide beads on the inner-to-outer piece that were there to fit around the beads in the inner (kick) panel. That was one of my biggest headaches.

Kevin;
please educate me on the brace that you built in the inside front of the rear fenders (page 1 of your pictures). What is the purpose? Do they have an official name? Are they to add strength because it is where the running boards attach? Also, what spot welder are you using to get such nice results?
Thanks, as always.

Those L shaped doublers came with the patch panels for the front of the rear fenders to strengthen where the running boards bolt to them. As far as the spot welder, it’s a cheapo 120v one I got because shipping was free.
The weld quality is because I’m just good. 😉

Three observations and 1 question for those following this thread. We am fitting the driver side, side cowl. The inner kick panel is positioned well enough with the one FAM spec being met to FOD but not to 0-line(I trust my eye on this one). The outer side cowl panel is positioned to meet specs in terms of fender hole distances from FOD and 0-line. That leaves the "middle piece" which the FAM calls "cowl side inner panel". We are struggling with getting this piece to fit in a number of ways.
1. see first 2 pictures. The original piece had a "notch" at the top of where the piece contacted both the bottom of the kick panel and the side of the floor (I can NEVER remember the term used for "the side of the floor"). The replacement part does not have that notch.
2. see next 4 pics. We cut the "middle piece" above the third indentation, since it was obvious that the "curve" of the middle piece did not match the curve of the outer cowl piece and something had to give. We chose to cut above the top indentation, hoping we could align the 3 indentations on the middle piece with the 3 "bumps" on the inner cowl piece (the kick panel).
3. see next 3 pics. At the very front of the side cowls, where you can view the combination of outer cowl piece and this "middle piece", the original metal has a sharper angle than the replacement metal.

So we are going to create that notch referred to in observation 1, in the replacement piece. That will bring the middle piece closer to the kick panel from the bottom of the middle piece to where it hits the bottom of the kick panel and the "top of the side of the floor".
We will use the slice we put in the middle piece to adjust the curve of the middle piece to eventually match the curve of the outer cowl piece (which mates to my fender holes quite well). Even with playing with the slice to adjust the curve, we are still struggling to get all 3 indentations to overlap the 3 bumps in the inner kick panel.

So here comes the question: It sure looks like we need to narrow this inner piece from east to west (horizontally) in order to fit it into the space between the inner and outer cowl pieces in order to not distort the outer cowl piece by making it bulge out too much. Anybody been there before? Can you give me some wisdom so that I don't have to order a third "middle piece"? (yes, I have 2 middle pieces now, from 2 different vendors) Thanks

Pat, I don't recall the inner-to-outer cowl (that's what the vendors call them) that I bought had that notch you're referring to, but I can't be sure. It would be to provide a little clearance for the inner (kick) panel flange and the flange on the floor that bends down vertically. There are 4 thicknesses of metal there, the floor flange, the inner cowl panel flange, the rocker panel and the inner-to-outer cowl piece.
A little slice there would take care of that. Cut vertically with a 1/16" cutoff tool, tap the tab outward and weld it back to the main part of the cowl.
On mine, I rotated the whole thing enough that the indentations fit around the beads on the inner cowl. I believe I wound up cutting off what protruded out the front. I also had to slice the top up to match the outer cowl so it was similar to your second to last picture.
Those inner-to-outer cowl pieces are notorious for having to be cut to fit correctly. I don't think you'll find ANYONE who had an inner-to-outer cowl piece that fit right.
I think you're on the right track.