The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop hydraulic lifter 235 block

Just got back from the machine shop and he said it can use hydraulic or solid lifters. Had solids when taken apart so that's what I assumed. Didn't know what to look for but he pointed out the oiling holes. Can someone confirm that's true from the attached pic? (Seems to know what he's talking about but it never hurts to make sure.)

Also the preferred part number or brand of hydraulic to look for?

Opens up the options for finding a cam and lifters that are actually in stock, since the Melling CCS-1 ordered last week apparently isn't. Hate it when a website says "1 available" when it isn't.

Yes, that big hole that runs from front to back through the lifter bores is the gallery for supplying the oil to keep the lifters pumped up. Hydraulic lifters on a stovebolt is a solution looking for a problem to solve, however. Adjusting solids on a daily driver is a once or twice a year project that takes maybe an hour, if you take a long coffee break halfway through the job. It can be done a lot less frequently on a weekend warrior or a trailer queen. Since the problem right now is a lack of cam cores to grind, you're likely to find the hydraulic shafts are just as scarce as the solid cams. Don't bother looking for recently manufactured hydraulic lifters that work well- - - -they're all offshore made junk, no matter what brand name they happen to be sporting. I'm thinking of looking for someone to regrind one of the dozen or so good cam cores I've got sitting around to the Elgin or Melling specifications.
Jerry

Wellll- - - - -folks- - - - -I just might have stumbled onto a solution to our problem! It seems that an oldtime machinist who lives just a few miles west of my home has a cam grinding machine, and knows how to use it! He says he can create a master cam from a new core, and store it in the machine's memory. Since I've got new cams from both Elgin and Melling, I've arranged to meet him and get a master cam made for both grinds. Then all that's needed would be a good core cam from a 235 or 261 that can be reground to the appropriate specifications.

Now the bad news- - - -the old boy is on chemotherapy now, and doesn't do much work any more. I wonder if he might be willing to sell his machine, and train me on the finer points of cam grinding? "Stay tuned!"
Jerry

Absolutely

Would hydraulic lifters indicate it's a powerglide engine?

Possibly- - - -Powerglde equipped passenger cars ran hydraulics from 1950 on, even on the spray-oiler 235's. By the late 1950's, all the cars ran hydrauilc lifters, standard or automatic. The trucks ran solids, I believe.
Jerry

I'm going to visit the guy with the cam grinder today. I have new Melling and Elgin cams he can use as patterns to copy, and I'll also bring up the subject of buying the machine at some future time when he's ready to retire. Back in the late 1980's we were both building racing engines in this area, but we never managed to meet at that time.
Jerry

My 59 235-truck engine was drilled for hydraulic lifters.

OK- - - -making progress! The gentleman is about 10 years older than me (and I'm older than dirt) and he's still running a high performance machine shop, assisted by a couple of part time helpers. He's going to put the CCS-1 lobe on a 235 cam core, and once he has a master cam fabricated from the lobes of the new cam he's using as a pattern, he can do that to any 235/261 cam that doesn't have worn out lobes. Later, I'll have him make a master cam for the Elgin E-293-S. If anybody's got used 235/261 cams in reasonably good condition- - - -DON'T DISCARD THEM! I've got three used cams in 261 engines, so I'll be inspecting all of them soon to see if they're suitable for regrinding to one lobe pattern or the other. If anybody's got serviceable cams in otherwise junk engines, PM me- - - -I'll buy them at any reasonable price.

BTW- - - -the cam he's regrinding now has been fitted to a 216 block by machining the bearing journals down to the smaller dimensions, so the Rube Goldberg 258 cubic inch "216" I'm building will have a Corvette style cam.
Jerry

All the last series of 235 blocks had that passage drilled- - - -but the trucks still ran solid lifters.
Jerry

So the question regarding hydraulics and a powerglide block are relevant to 1950 through 1955 blocks. Powerglide blocks cam with hydraulic lifters. You can retrofit solids or use hydraulic lifters, along with the appropriate cam. Stick shift blocks were solid lifter only and were not drilled for hydraulics so you can only run solid lifters. In 1956, GM made a few changes including the elimination of the two separate block thing. No shims, neoprene seal, 848 head for example. So from 56 onward, all passenger car blocks came with hydraulic lifters regardless of whether those motors used a standard transmission or automatic transmission. As for hydraulic lifters, 55-58 use a GM lifter that is slightly different the the 59-62 hydraulic lifter. So two different part numbers, valving mostly. In 59, GM made the last of the changes to the oiling system of the 235 and apparently specified some differ5e3nt valving. Aftermarket generally lists one part number for 56-62 hydraulic lifters.

NOS 55-58 GM lifters are an unbelievable bear to come across. 59 and up NOS GM hydraulic lifters are just a tiny bit better, but still a bear to find. These are the very best lifters to use. As for aftermarket, Sealed power, TRW, McQuay Norris, Johnson, Elgin, all good brands so long as you can find them as made in the USA. These are also now a real challenge to find. For whatever reason, the new manufacture lifters, and new being relative as this issue has been going on for like the last 30 years now, have not had a very good reputation for longevity. It is common for these lifters to fail and collapse shortly after you start using them.

So with the cost of machine work and parts these days, I think I would be very hesitant to used a new hydraulic lifter if I was unable to find NOS or RNOS USA made hydraulic lifters. New solid lifters on the other hand, while not as quiet as hydraulic lifters, seem to be a lot more durable and less in the way of issues re brake in and running failures. Do they need to be adjusted once in a while, yes they do but not as often as some would make you think. That and HRL is right, its a cup of coffee and an enjoyable hour in the garage tinkering with the motor a bit. Once you learn how to do it, its no big deal.

Now the other possibility, Rocker Arms Unlimited in California is really the only place to have a set of rockers rebuilt. One of the other services they offer is lifter resurfacing. If you have some used lifters that are not worn or scarred up beyond their serviceable life, you might be able to tke them apart, clean them up, send them out for a resurfacing and put them back together and have a viable alternative to the dastardly difficult to find GM and UAS made lifters.

So I would say if you cannot get real GM or USA made hydraulic lifters, or rebuild the lifters that you have, you might consider not taking a chance with newly manufactured lifters and just go with solids and call it a day.

Hmmmm- - - - -so I guess the rocker arms and lifters I recondition in my little back yard shop need to be tossed in the trash- - - -no matter how long they've been running trouble-free, right? I'm sure Rocker Arms Unlimited will appreciate the extra business! Ditto for the blocks I've sleeved down to run the slightly smaller diameter (and dirt cheap) MOPAR big block lifters!
LOL!
Jerry

C'mon now Jerry, lol. You are a machinist with the experience and equipment to do these kinds of things! Me, and I guess a lot of others here, backyard hackers who sometimes have to farm this stuff out.

I feel your pain, Mike.

When I lived near Albany, NY, I had easy access to engine/etc machine shops, a radiator shop, a gas tank shop, and excellent painters.

Most of those types shops are now 60-90 miles away from me.

I have been looking for painter for 5 years (all my parts are in primer ready to paint).
I think that I now have 2 paint shops within 70 miles.

Good luck to you, Mike

Truth be told, there are very few shops that are willing to take on an old car or truck paint job. It’s just not that profitable. So when you find one that will, the cost can be eye opening. But it is what it is. They have to make or they go out of business. Me, I am ok with something less than perfection. So I bought a pair of paint guns from Eastwood that were designed for those of us with smaller compressors, and learned how to shoot a little paint. Turns out, with some reasonably decent prep, an easy touch on the base coat and a few coats of clear, by the time I get done, it does not look half bad. Far from perfect but not terrible for hacker work.

Same with the pickings when it comes to a machine shop, really getting thin.

tclederman Get a paint gun and shoot your own paint,once you take your paint work out then you wait,wait,wait, and they may still ruin it for you ! Around here their all doing deer wreck work and fender bender!!

Mike, you mean everybody on Stovebolt doesn't have a few lathes, mills, welders, crankshaft grinders, bench grinders, drill presses, torches, line bore and cylinder boring equipment, a hydraulic press, a band saw, valve seat and guide machinery, a valve grinder, and a Sunnen hone? What a bunch of slackers!
LOL!
Jerry

LOL, what a bunch of slackers! I actually purchased and rebuilt a Sun Distributor machine a couple of years ago so I could rebuild my own distributors when Jim Linder retired. I sent one out to another person and ended up in distributor jail for quite some time. I just dont have that time to sit and wait. some things I am just stuck with. Machine work for example. Then there is Paint. I had an acquaintance of mine, not a friend, just someone I know very casually, recently brag about how much he paid for paint, just the paint and primer cost and not the whole project cost, when he had a 59 Apache painted. House of Color and all that. It was a couple thousand dollars. The whole job was in the tens of thousands. Good if you have that kind of money but how do you enjoy a truck like that. The worry over a single smudge would be enough to put me in the grave.

So like the Sun machine, I jumped right in and tried my hand at it. I had tinkered with home painting years ago and decided to give it another go. Turns out, the epoxy primers that are used today (I learned to use SPI) are way way better then old fashioned lacquer primer. The sprayable fillers like Slick Sand are way better then the old Nitro Stain (if anyone remembers that product), the base coats (I use a company called Urechem for paint. Direct sales to the end purchaser, good products, really good pricing), are much easier to spray then the old lacquer or even acrylic enamels (which are still good products), but the clears are really where it is at. They spray on pretty nice, and sand and polish out pretty well. Makes someone like me look half way decent. I don't know about anyone else, but being careful with the dollars has allowed me to stay in this hobby for well over 40 years So I try to do as much as I can myself but for some things, I think many of us are just stuck biting the bullet and farming it out.

Recently, I've encountered a couple of old geezers in the machine shop business who make me feel like a rank amateur! One is currently getting set up to regrind a few stovebolt camshafts for me, due to the shortage of new cams caused by the lack of cores. He's in his mid-80's, and on chemotherapy, so I'm hoping to learn how it's done while he's still able to share some of his knowledge. Good machine work is getting about as scarce as finding a chicken with lips!
Jerry

Your contact who is getting set-up to re-grind Stovebolt cam cores…

You think he could grind something with similar characteristics as the CCS-1 but WITHOUT the lobe taper that flat tappet cams use?

Reason for asking: Of all the really cool experiments you have going, I think the one that has the most potential for widespread use, is adapting the Mopar roller lifters. A “recipe” for that modification might extend the viability of rebuilding these old things by another decade or two. If it’s getting tough to source good rebuild parts now, imagine what it will be like in 10+ years.

As you have stated in the past, there’s probably not much reason to go chasing the performance potential of the roller setup, but the advantages of going roller would solve a lot of current problems: cam failures, fretting about ZDDP, etc.

If you're careful and have a steady hand, lifter surfaces can by reground with a bench-top belt/disc sander. Using a Starret combination square, I set the angle of the table on my sander to 1 degree and hand-sanded the cam surfaces on a set that were flat-ground. You end up with a one degree cone shape. The one degree was per Crower instructions. They apparently grind tapered lobes. Anyhow, the cam and lifters have been in two engines for pushing a hundred thousand miles with not trouble. Yet.

That solves the cam-surface issue on used hydraulics but they do wear out inside eventually, although the problem is usually sticking from infrequent oil changes.

I ran DELO 15-40 for years while I had access to an unlimited supply but that dried up and now the metal package has been reduced so I'm still using DELO C-K but with a ZDDP additive but not a whole bottle.

I'm still waiting for Jerry to degree one of the Melling/Elgin cams he's got to see what the profile really is without clearance ramps. I have several used cams I can set up in V-blocks to check but there's no ID marking on them so I don't know what they came out of except they were engines of mine at one time. One, I know, is a Howard's grind that was indistinguishable from stock when measured with a mic. but I didn't degree it. I'll do that sometime this spring.

I'll be installing an Elgin cam in the 1951 spray oiler 235 engine I'm upgrading to pressure oiling and later model rods and pistons. I'll do a degree check on that one and publish the results. That's the same cam we installed in John's 261 when we built that one up, and I believe it checked out virtually the same as an OEM 261 cam other than having different lash specifications. Elgin advertises that one as a "300 degree" duration, but they include the clearance ramps in their "duration" specification. I'm having a cam reground to the Melling specs for the 258 cubic inch bored and stroked "216" I have under construction.

The fixture I'm in the process of building for my lathe will put a precise radius on the bottom of a lifter, using a die grinder and either a super fine grit Cratex wheel or a Scotchbrite pad on a 2" diameter rubber mandrel, and I'll be able to set it up for various dimensions. I believe the stovebolt lifters are made with a 60" radius.