The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay Puzzling Out The Electic System

I'm plugging away at my newly acquired 1955 (later half, newer model) 6400. It's got a 235 out of a 1959 truck in it. It's been converted to a 12v system with a 12v starter and a 12v generator. Unsure of the coil, but it's got the two terminal white gizmo that makes the power to the coil safe (resistor I think?).

In practice every old vehicle I have ever worked on, I just rip out the "harness" (most of the things I work can hardly be considered to have a wiring harness) and start from scratch. I find it's better to start from a known place of "nothing works and nothing is connected" than it is to be working with a combination of old rotten wires, mixed groundings, and redneck engineering (but don't get it twisted, I'll likely be re-redneckerizing it to my own tastes). So, out with the old.

What I'm puzzling through is that it seems to me that I need exactly two wires to run the engine. I need a one from the terminal to the starter stud (foot start) and I need a hot wire to the coil. Everything else is superfluous. Is this roughly accurate? I can't find anything else that even needs wiring in the engine bay other than the horn and the generator. The rest of the truck seems to by run on vacuum tubes and dumb luck.

Eventually it'd be nice to not be alligatorin' my coil to the battery of course, so we'll need an upgrade to the ignition system to add a switch. I found a switch with both an accessory and an on, hard to come by I reckon, but I found one without the momentary start switch. My plan is to run most everything on the accessory switch and then just run the important stuff on the on (coil, dials, heater). I reckon each position gets its own fuse box to keep things simple and tidy. I can't figure out how the "on" position would ever need more than say four fuses, so I'm thinking a six fuse box for the "on" is plenty, might be handy to put an electric fuel pump on here at some point, in my experience mechanical fuel pumps are horrible to prime. I could see a point in running a 12 fuse box for the on as well, might be worth it to run my dials on separate fuses, especially since I think I'll be using some of these mechanical to electric systems and use more modern gauges.

Then probably run a 12 fuse box for the accessories, which means an 18 or 24 fuse system in total, probably overkill for something from the 50s! On the accessories box I'm figuring I'll need lights (lotta fuses here, but we'll just call 'em "lights" for now), horn, cabin fan, and maybe a radio at some point. My truck does not have a cigarette lighter or a radio installed at present.

I'd like to run a second battery under the bed of the truck for heavy duty applications, mostly a winch. Figure a diode would let the battery charge off the engine but not feed back into it. But this would probably either not get a fuse box at all or would get it's own fuse box, and it's a bit of a down-the-road thing for when I've got a truck worth investing a winch in.

Few things I'm wondering about, does anyone have an accessory disconnect setup to that accessory power is killed when the starter is running? I've also heard tell of some way of connecting to coil directly to the battery during start-up. For a generator I don't suspect it matters, but with alternators (well some of 'em) you gotta provide initial power to it, how's that work with the starter system if I decide to "upgrade" to an alternator?

Lastly, got two things I'm puzzling over. First, I am fairly confident my start switch (aka the poorly named "solenoid" switch) is shot. I pulled out the starter and pulled that switch apart and there's more copper splattered around the inside of that switch than there is on the copper bar that connects the terminal to the starter stud. But luckily it seems the stud is in fine order. However, I can't fathom how the start pedal linkage is ever going to actuate that button. I'm attaching a picture I took so you can see. Looks like the linkage needs a few inches of "bump" and someone took "stomp switch" too literally and beat that linkage into submission.

Second puzzle, what the heck is this doodad on my steering column? I perused the owner's manual for this year and there's no indication that anything other than a three-on-the-tree would live on the column, and I have no such thing in my truck. Can't tell if this is just a broken OEM part or some sort of after market monster. Either way it's butchered good. Maybe a turn signal switch?

I believe your second pic is of the turn signal mechanism that someone replaced the lever with a screw.

On your battery isolator, I'd recommend a charging relay to the auxiliary battery that closes only when the ignition is on. The items fed by the aux battery can be isolated from the engine completely, with just that charge circuit active when the engine is running. My daily driver truck uses that arrangement for charging the camper battery (or trailer battery if I had one.)

The starter switch can be replaced with a repop or NOS switch. They do tend to take a beating.

If you are replacing the stomp starter switch get one with a small terminal on the side (probably sold as a 12 volt model). Connect the terminal to the coil + terminal along with one wire from "the two terminal white gizmo". That's how the factory would have done it on a 12v stomp starter system.

The ‘two terminal white gizmo’ needs to be where it gets a ready supply of fresh air to keep it cool. Look around on 12v engine compartments to see how others have mounted them.

Ed

Thanks, gents.

I got my "solenoid" switch in today, slapped it on, and as I suspected, nothing. Took it off and that stud on the starter is so badly worn that the switch just isn't contacting it. I'll need to replace that stud, but it looks like it's a fairly easy job to replace, of course I've gotta FIND a replacement stud. From some reading it sounds like some folks got soldered studs but mine is either a screw or a bolt (forget which).

So I pulled that switch back off to give me access to the stud, removed the spring from the stomp pedal so the bendix would easily engage and stay engaged, and gave it some power. Goodness it sounds good turnin' over! Almost like someone had taken care of this thing (it's been off the road rusting away since '87) all these years. No lightning though. I did the ole screwdriver in the plug-cord trick and no juice is flowing that far downstream. Coil is good though, shows 1.4 ohms on the meter. The distributor spent the last two or three years with the cap off, so likely suspect there. I pulled it back open, points are surprisingly clean. But the bolt that connects to the ground on the distributor is broke -- mighta done that...

I'm figuring that vacuum powered auto-advance means the distributor is gonna be looser than most, but golly it sure feels like it's really too loose.

edit: I'm still fairly certain that the linkage that pushes the "solenoid" switch is too worn to actually actuate the switch.

Fortunately, that broken distributor connector is available for replacement. Link

Don't know about the starter stud. Every one I've seen is soldered to the field windings inside the starter. They must be available as the rebuilders can get them. Maybe try HERE

Thanks! Bought all the parts I need to refurb the distributor, sans condensor got loads of those around, from Filling Station store. They also had a reasonably priced HEI distributor conversion from a later GM, so I grabbed one of those too. Probably need a better coil if that works...

Sent Kenneth an email about the stud.

Any idea about that linkage or the dimensions it ought to be? Thinking might be easy to just weld a nut in to extend the reach a wee bit.

He lists that starter stud for $10. Here

Don't know about the dimensions for the starter linkage. I have my '51 engine in the garage that I could measure for you if you need a specific dimension, but it's a 6V system.

1. The starter mounted switch is not a solenoid switch as you say. It's not called that by anybody including the vendors we use.
2. You don't need anything but a 12 or 21 circuit, pre wired fuse panel, universal harness kit. ~ $185/$205
3. Your ignition switch could have ON and ACC separated inside switch, but many are "all terminals are off or all are on". Continuity test will show.
4. Your charging systen, whatever you have or decide to do, has nothing to do with your ignition/starting circuits.
5. You mention a bunch of electrical ideas/components/wiring that are not needed, if I read correctly.
6. As far as wires/fuses for "dials". Depends on if you have mechanical oil pressure and temp sensor (tubes instead of wires). The gas gauge and ammeter are electrical.
7. You are right about ripping out old and starting with new.
8. As far as alternator vs generator, don't worry about that. Very easy to change to alternator. Way less wires.
9. If you buy the 12 circuit or 21 circuit kit, all things will wire up, no sweat.
10. As Kevin posted, Kenneth will have you covered with parts, rebuild service and advise.

In case it needs clarified, your ignition is wired: *
1. Wire from Ign SW to one side of ballast resistor.
2. Other side of ballast resistor to coil positive.
3. Wire from starter mounted switch side terminal to coil positve

* (if coil is an externally resisted model)

Thanks Bartamos. The Napa listing for that starter switch calls it a "starter solenoid switch" so that's where I got the name from. It's stuck with me cause of how silly it is. https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHST11

Probably won't matter if I got a GM alternator, but on some you do need a wire hooked into the "start" because it needs initial power, not sure why, just know it's gotta be that way. But ya usually a GM alternator is just about the easier thing to wire in the world.

I've been in contact with Kenneth. Issue is my starter is a refurb and whoever did that removed the original stud and has put in a new one that screws in and out. I gotta get back out and pull the starter out so I can get pictures to him to make sure what he's got will work. But man that starter is probably the best one on any vehicle I got. Gonna make sure to keep it, runs really well.

Yes alternator needs a wire to the Ign Sw. No need to get into that til you get one. Sounds like you are taking one step at a time. Good. Don't fly all over the place with worries. There really isn't anything that you and Stovebolt can't handle. Get motor starting/running, then brakes and etc. Wiring is about last. It all takes awhile but keeps you out of jail.

Maranatha Your turn signal switch is the same as a Corvette late C-1's. Pull your wheel and lube it up and it will work fine,gets dry. Get parts from Eckler Corvette place in Florida. Clamps get loose and wants to slide down the column like yours has done.

bartamos On alternators,had one in gen location,mounted another up higher belted it for more rpm,now cherges at slow idle to keep up with my autocrane winch truck system. About a 1-ton system,with 13 foot 6 inch gin poles,throw a chain around the poles to climb up and put cable in the crown sheave.

I think his turn signal is stock 55......and truck has not been converted to 12V.
55.2 and up were 12V.

bartamos Do you think a 55-2 12 volt turn signal could be put on 47 to 53 column is same size ??

Probably. Classic parts shows a turn signal assembly for 54-56. So if 47-54 have same diameter column, should work. They also show a 57-59, That seems to indicate either will work on 47-59. Not voltage specific. Seems bell cup will blend with back of steering wheels also.
Upper bearing is 47-59.

Fixite7
I believe the 54 optional turn signal cup on the column is slightly different from the later Task Force trucks. The signal arm on the 54 sticks out of the switch closer to 90 degrees from the shaft while the later design switch is angled up towards the steering wheel. This is to accommodate the different steering wheels. (older flat vs later dished)

Good point. I was concentrating on tube size, voltage and don't know AD. trying to use logic. Didn't work. The 47-53 wheel seems to have a "built in" bell? Is that right? Also don't know about how you would do the cancelling and horn, etc.
Maybe that's why they sell the clamp-ons.
The 54-56 would work on 57-59.

I guess a 47-53 guy could use a 54-56 wheel and so forth, to get a non clamp-on T/S.

Maranatha As I recall that stud is almost always "good enough" to re-use,think it is silver brazed inside the starter because soft solder would let go to easily...but may be wrong never changed one in about 50 starters. Have a pile of at least a dozen along with my running ones that are mostly re-buildable or workable as is. Always re-work my own at home,just bought (maybe the last pile) of rebuild over the counter parts. My local OLD fashion parts guru can still get bulk repairs from the re-builders,maybe they'll last about as long as I will !! The leather washers are not as robust as they were 60 years ago,cows have thinner skin I think LOL !!

bartamos On those alternators,had a pipe dream of a sheave with an interal planetary gear set to speed up the alternator rotor so it would prime and charge at idle,like on an AD or a tractor. Think that would work?? As I said I have done it with belts on a 51 216 original 3600 works good but fan blade barely clears it. In my build never even thought of that but for once it cleared and worked !!

In a planetary gear set, one of the components has to be held stationary (carrier, ring gear, or sun gear) in order to change speed. That might be tough to do on an alternator. An easier approach to speeding up an alternator is to just use a smaller pulley on the alternator.

I've looked for a smaller than stock alternator pulley for the 10SI alternator on my 228 GMC engine for years with no luck. Larger than stock are easy to find. My engine idles at 425 RPM and the 10SI just doesn't have much output at that engine speed. If anyone knows where to find a smaller pulley, please post that info here.

Bill,

Whats the diameter of the existing pulley on your 10si???

It would be simpler to use a bigger crankshaft pulley. Any machinist worthy of the name can make a small diameter alternator pulley in a few minutes if you choose not to go with the easy fix for some reason.
Jerry

OD is 2.600" and the top surface of the V-belt is riding about 0.067" proud of the pulley.




Jerry: How would pulling the engine to change out the crank pulley be easier than swapping the alternator pulley?

All you'd need to do would be to pull the radiator, right? Anybody in my shop who couldn't change a timing gear before lunch on a stovebolt engine would get to take his tool box home that evening. Another option would be to machine the groove deeper on the existing alternator pulley to increase the rotational speed. Send me the pulley and I'll be glad to do that- - - -no charge.
Jerry

Bill,

Here are couple of marginally smaller diameter single groove pulleys that indicate will fit a 10si unit. None of these are mine, just stuff I found perusing the web.

These were picked based on an assumption that you are using the 5/8" wide belt.

https://store.alternatorparts.com/2...tural-industrial-marine-alternators.aspx

https://store.alternatorparts.com/a203-extra-wide-belt-pulley.aspx

Haven't tried to do the math to figure out if the reduction in pulley diameter is enough to raise the RPM level to a more acceptable level or not???

Perhaps the minor reduction, coupled with a little deeper set of the belt in the groove is enough???

Would be interested to know if someone wants to do the math.

Dan

We are hijacking this thread. I'll start a new one tomorrow with some measurements of the pulley and belt.

Hey Bill, if you just pull the pulley on your alternator and then figure out the dimensions and spline count on that shaft you should be able to find a pulley small enough on ebay. It doesn't have to be a pulley that's specific to your alternator as long as it fits it'll work! I've done this plenty of times. I actually have a few pulleys left from when I did this to my 8N because it was cheaper to buy 3 than just 1.

klhansen My alternator teacher an old man who started re-winding generators in 1936 showed me a lot just gonna remember what he said and use it like I have for over 40 years now. Thanks for the reply. Kevin that old man pointed out to me that a higher amp alternator rotor would charge at a lower rpm it does !! Use it every day. Primes easily too.

No 1300 I junked out a 57 1/2 ton but I can't find that turn signal switch. I think it would work on 47 to 53 but I can't remember how it cancels. Still have the column it is basically on a rat rod pile of parts I still drive around to keep them alive. If stovebolters find out I have 3 of those with drivelines,brakes,cooling system,saginaw 4 speed,they may learn to do it. Also a good place to check alternators,starters,trannys,takes 20 minutes to change one just climb in there. Even have a 4-link on one.