The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Door fitment screwup

After replacing floor, inner and outer cowls the door opening was tight. A “body man” from my truck club offered to help and try to coax the opening with a little hydraulic persuasion. It was successful on the drivers side. The passenger side was worse and unfortunately he got carried away . The door fits better but it slightly stretched the rear pillar and shoved the front pillar back into the outer cowl. The screwed part is that the lower hinge face plate now needs washers between it and the pillar to properly position the door.
My thoughts are that the outer cowl that makes door gap needed to be moved forward but not the surface that the hinge plate rests on.

Im thinking I need to detach the pillar from the cowl and move it forward so the washer are not required. Then modify cowl to keep its edge away from the leading door edge.
I have no idea if this will work and would really like to hear other ideas. Thanks.

It looks like the cowl has a "Z" bend in it below the middle of the lower hinge. I think it's going to be a lot of work to get it the hinge moved back, but possible. You'll have to get the hinge pillar cut away from the cowl to get it to move, as there isn't really any other way to move it. You might wind up replacing the outer cowl again.

You probably would have been better off grinding the edge of the door to fit the openings. But it's too late now.

I can't see which way things need to go and how much..... but here is a general option. When I say tree, I mean anything unmovable. But a tree is many times a good place.

Chain truck frame to a tree. use a come-a-long, winch, trucker ratchet binder..,,something that will pull with control. Bolt a puller bracket to the hinge mount. Attach pulling tool to tree, attach it's chain to bracket and pull pillar or whatever needs pulled....or weld a puller bracket to wherever it needs to pull. Sounds crude but it's all the same as a shop would do without the tree. You are not talking much movement so go slow and stop and try fits.

You MUST use a pulling device that you can control is very small increments.

Option 2: Use wooden 2 x 4 and a big hammer to work the pillar or whatever to move. You can shape the end of 2 x 4 to match what it pushes against so as not to dent it, just move it/straighten it. Short easy blows, enough for slight movement. Should not need to anchor frame/truck for this. You can use wood as a "strong back" and the other 2x4 as a ram with hammer.

Don't do these if not comfortable or doesn't seem right after you start.

I don't like the idea of detaching or cutting anything. If it went one way it will go back.

But to repeat, I can't see which way things need to go and how much. just approximates with a pic or two. Does not seem major and don't see any structural damage... As in: rips, tears or pulled spot welds. I would pull or bump it back.....testing as I go, not looking for show quality door fit or gap. Original gaps were bigish.

Using a straight edge/level is probably NOT the correct way to measure or use as a reference for bending back to shape, USE THE TRUCK DOORS or whatever truck part needs to fit as your gauges.

Normally, Bartamos' 2x4 method would work, but there's no access to the back of the hinge pocket. The inner-to-outer cowl piece is in the way, and there's the piece that surrounds the hinge pocket as well.

But his pulling bracket idea might work without cutting away the outer cowl. Use the hinge bolt pattern for that bracket and weld a stout eye to it for your hook. A cable come-along connected to that tree should give you the control you'll need. Be sure the truck is restrained, or you might just be sliding the tires over the ground. Chaining the front of the frame to another tree or bigger vehicle with the wheels blocked would help on control.

[on edit] From the look of what you have going on, locating the eye for pulling outboard of the cab a bit might help. The pillar should be tied pretty tight to the rocker panel and was probably rotated forward on the outside, so pulling from the outside, but directly rearward should help reverse the damage.

Definitely like the pulling idea with a fabricated bracket and not cutting into the cowl or drilling out spots welds if it can be avoided. They do make a lower cowl patch panel if needed but like Bartamos stated try to avoid cutting for now. I attached a better picture that shows how the cowl mates to the pillar and is in a 90 degree Z at the top and at the bottom where the pillar has pushed into the cowl and the Z is know much deeper.

Do you guys think there is much chance of pulling the front piece that is between the inner kick panel and outer cowl out of position by doing this? or since the cowl already caved in that it should now be easier to pull forward and get the pillar and Z section back to original position?

Klhansen and Bartamos for feedback and great ideas as usual!

Eric

It doesn't look to me like the inner-to-outer cowl piece in front moved at all.

You don't have much to lose if you try pulling the hinge pocket and A-pillar to the rear with a bracket. You might want to temporarily weld the bracket right at the outer edge so that it just doesn't pull the hinge pocket out and leave the outer edge too far forward.

It looks like your guy pushed pretty much at the lower end of the A-pillar where the Z is deepest. Or maybe it was just the weakest spot.

Good Luck

You guys know AD trucks, I don't. I've never seen a "Z" anywhere at the top of anything. I don't know what you are talking about, BE SPECIFIC.
And I don't see anything wrong with anything????????? except maybe I see the mounting plate of the hinge is pulled away from pocket. Maybe the pics are too close or I am too far out.

Where the h e ll is the Z?

Here's his pic with some notes explaining the "Z".

OK I see. So don't you think he should only pull on the lower hinge bolt while somehow holding the cowl. Just a small pull to see if it's going to go. Need to measure or set up a primitive indicator to be sure cowl does not move. I do see a cut option now. Like cut a slice inside the Z and enable a softer pull, then bend, hammer, pull the Z out and weld the slice closed. In lieu of cutting the pillar off at bottom, straighten it, have access to straighten the Z and weld pillar bottom back on. (plan C).
What do you think Kevin, he's got two mechanical engineers! We don't even make one good body man.

HEY! have you seen some of the stuff I've done? I'm a half-fast body man.

Securing the cowl piece might not be a bad idea. I think that's worth a try. Maybe use one of the fender bolt holes and tie that to somewhere on the frame up front, although I think the cowl and inner-to-outer cowl piece are pretty stout if he's welded them in securely.

Cutting stuff out and then trying to get it back in would be a lot of work, and like I said, pulling it back the way it went in would probably be best and he doesn't have anything to lose by trying it.

I have seen your work. very good , just a joke about ME's before the slings and arrows come.

I can't go along with nothing to lose, We are winging this and a good man already over pulled/pushed it. so...........caution.

If a pull is undertaken on the lower hinge bolt, it could break loose. I think it's a weld nut.... so caution

I would also pull at about a 30 deg up angle.

I am still not sure if pulling just the bottom bolt or a whole pull plate is best. This takes some testing to get it right. That test effort is priceless. Observe what the metal does with a tiny pull using several attachment methods and you will get success.

Instead of a bolting to that weld nut/captive nut, maybe just use a "L" shape bracket tucked/wedged in behind the pocket and pull on that. 1/4-1/2" Piece of wood in there to spread the load/keep it square.

Kevin/anyone can modify these comments depending on actual AD pillar/pocket/nut configuration. It's called brainstorming in a group environment. An actual design mode technique. One idea begets a better one. You gotta start somewhere.

The weld nuts for the hinges are in front of the pillar, so shouldn't pull out, but your note that caution should be observed is a good one.

Not having an actual eye on the damage and where the push was, it's hard to recommend where to pull, but it should be where the push happened. Eric is going to have to make that determination as to where to start pulling and how much to brace.

Here's a view of the area in question without the outer cowl and inner-to-outer cowl piece in place. A hook behind the outer edge could be used, but it would be hard to get behind the pillar below the lowest bolt attachment point and it looks like it needs to be pulled backward there.

Kevin, Thanks for correcting a few of my points. I was off kilter. What about a slide hammer screwed into the lower hinge thread? Then tweak by pulling on each other thread at a time, if necessary. Less set up and still controllable.

OR........A threaded eye bolt (Home Depot) in the bottom hole/several holes to pull on, or slide hammer, can be used instead of a shop made pull plate.

What I can see is that the cowl and its overall box structure is way stronger than the pillar sheet metal Z crinkle would be. The fact that only the pillar sheet metal crinkled seems to verify that, am I correct? I think you made that point. So maybe holding it is not that critical. Not sure if Eric has all that structure in place. Inner/outer and crossover.

Eric, you have some ammo now. What do you think is best for you?

Bartamos/Kevin,
I have all the structure in place and based on my recollection and feeling by hand a depression, the pressure was applied at the bottom of the cowl under the hinge plate. This is also confirmed by feeling the dent in the rear pillar in the same location...great. I agree that since the sheet metal is what collapsed it should also give first and to some extent want to relieve stress. I believe you guys were saying the pull would ideally be where the push happened which in this case is below the fasteners. Would it be possible to weld an eye bolt in the location towards the outboard side and pull either using a come along or a slide hammer like you guys suggested? I would think it would need to be slow to make sure the lower cowl is moving back and not just the location that the bolt it welded against, thoughts?

I was originally thinking of just cutting sheet metal away, moving the pillar and attaching a new patch panel but definitely like trying these ideas before going that route!

Thanks,
Eric

Welding an eyebolt to the pillar would work, but would probably concentrate the pull in just one place, which might not be the correct place. Typically a lot of weld studs are needed on a dent with out access to the back. I know some of the areas that I worked on did. I doubt weld studs would be enough to move the heavier pillar metal.

Here's another option. Cut a fairly large hole in the inner-to-outer cowl piece opposite where the push happened. That would give you access for a fairly large piece of wood that you could hammer on to push the pillar back where it needs to be. That would also let you move the impact point around as needed. You could use a jack against a hard point (front axle?) to push with. Then weld the cut out piece back in the hole. That area isn't readily visible so it wouldn't need to be pretty. A sheet metal saw would work well to cut the hole.

Let us know how it works out.

Don't like the idea of welding a bolt to the sheet metal. Thick piece to a thin piece makes you blow thru which is NOT GOOD in this case. ..... and NO ACCESS to fix with a copper backing.

I think the eye bolt into bottom hinge thread is the best bet first. Use a slide hammer. You can control the hits. Pull up and out? Not sure. Just see what the metal wants to do and reset to a different method. Your first step is an information step. Very important!!!! Ease into this and see how the Z reacts. Don't apply any heat on it yet either.

I did think of a hole as Kevin says but thought that is one of the nuclear options. But plenty doable, but again if blow thru like I do, it's a mess. If you are a good welder of thin sheet metal that's different. Not many folks are. I am still not great at it and have done quite a bit. The problem is I do it then not again for years when a new project happens.

Bartamos is right about the eyebolt and welding different thicknesses. I could do it without blowing holes, but I've had practice. The biggest issue is the pull would be in only one spot and as I said, likely wrong.

You could use a piece of sheet metal to create a pull tab. Use roughly the same gauge as the hinge pillar, bore a hole in it for a hook or a bolt and tack it on to the pillar on one side only so it will be easier to remove.

I like it!
Like weld pins only stouter.

So what happened? Any update? Pics?

If you have ever watched the TV show overhaulin, Chip Foose, many times uses a good old torch and heats things up nice and hot to move them. On some of the thick metal on these trucks that maybe the only way to move it, especially on that now very strong area that is "Z d".
Gona make more of a mess by not pulling it while hot.