A word on the fuel pump pressure; This problem began when the Chinese fuel pump was still installed. It seems unlikely that both pumps would over-pressurize the system causing the same symptoms.
Also, before the carburetor was rebuilt, I tested the pressure of the Chinese pump and it was 2-2.5 psi.
I'll get the pics of the points.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
HRL is once again dead right. Save the carburetor until after you check the fuel pump pressure. I forgot my "Its Never The Carburetor " mantra, which forces me to test everything else first. If the fuel pressure is within specs, it would be nice to have a known working carburetor to swap out, especially if you are not proficient in disassembling, diagnosing, and reassembling a carburetor.
1952 5-window - return to "as built" condition | 1950 3100 with a 235 and a T-5 transmission
If I had a known working carburetor, it would be on the truck.
I'll test the pressure to satisfy that the fundamentals are in order.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
Carb King will probably weigh in again soon on this one but in the meantime I'll do a thought experiment informed by a good bit of experience.
We've eliminated fuel pressure and delivery. Have we eliminated retarded timing? I may have lost track. That said, it is not safe to assume that because the carb was rebuilt recently that all is well in that department. Things change. Grit comes loose when you're mucking about and ends up where it shouldn't be. Screws come loose. Vacuum sucks gaskets in where they're cracked. Heat warps metal. Nuts holding carb to the manifold work loose, etc., etc. Bear in mind that you may have more than one problem simultaneously.
Your plug reading shows it running way too rich. No news there. Is that from idling or running down the road and quick shut off (plug chop)? If it's just from idling then there is excess fuel feeding the idle circuit for some reason. If it's from running down the road perhaps fuel is siphoning into the main-jet discharge tube for some reason; loose main jet? Again, you may have more than one problem. Is this a W-1 Carter or a YF or something else? If a YF, perhaps the accelerator pump has succumbed to ethanol. But then you say it obviously squirts when it should. If it's a Rochester B there are all sorts of problems associated with warpage and pluggage that I'm not competent to comment on.
I'll chase down the generic lean-mixture-off-idle problem.
Usually a stumble on throttle opening is caused by a lean condition or retarded timing or both. It idles normally, you say at about 1-1/2 turns out on the idle screw? But wants to die when the throttle is opened? as though something apparently starves it of fuel when it comes off idle. Or, perhaps it's idling too rich and then starves for fuel as soon as the throttle is opened?
On most carbs, there are two tiny, tiny ports in the carb throat, one above and one below the throttle blade when it's at idle position. The one below is the idle port which is fed through the idle mixture screw. The one above is the "transfer port" and provides extra fuel (and on some carbs a fuel/air emulsion) as the edge of the throttle blade moves above it, exposing it to vacuum. If this transfer port is plugged with a tiny bit of grit, the engine will idle normally but stumble as the throttle is opened. One is tempted to compensate for this by advancing the spark or enrichening the idle mixture or both but then it idles too rich and pings on acceleration and you still have a stumble off idle.
If there's a vacuum leak at the manifold flange for some reason, you'll lose the vacuum signal to the power circuit and it'll be rich all the time except at idle and the vacuum will be low off idle and the transfer port will not suck enough fuel. If the vacuum passage is plugged with gasket cement or whatever, you'll have a permanent rich condition as the power valve will be open or the metering rods will be up, depending on carb design, but the transfer port should behave normally.
Fixing the transfer port problem may not be easy as you can't get an air nozzle into the carb throat easily. Try pulling a bristle from your wire brush and use that to poke into the transfer port. Then use an air nozzle that has a long tube you can bend and squirt air into the port. Finally, blow air from the other end and put your thumb in the throat to feel if there's an air jet coming out.
This is all a lot of trouble so check that all the carb parameters are correct first, eg. float level, float drop, float jet size, correct size check balls in where they should be, gasket integrity, air-horn warpage, loose screws for secondary venturi, (if any) warped accelerator pump diapahram retainer or loose screws there (if any).
My best guess is that you have two problems: 1) High float level, perhaps caused by grit stuck in the float valve. 2) Blocked transfer port, again caused by grit. A third possibility is that you have turned the idle screw out to compensate for the off-idle problem and that is the cause of the rich plug reading and you still have the transfer port problem.
I'm hedging my bets here because it's really hard to troubleshoot remotely where I forgot what somebody said several posts ago.
1951 3800 1-ton "Earning its keep from the get-go" In the DITY Gallery 1962 261 (w/cam, Fenton headers, 2 carbs, MSD ign.), SM420 & Brown-Lipe 6231A 3spd aux. trans, stock axles & brakes. Owned since 1971.
Carb King will probably weigh in again soon on this one but in the meantime I'll do a thought experiment informed by a good bit of experience.
We've eliminated fuel pressure and delivery. Have we eliminated retarded timing? Yes. Advancing and retarding timing made no difference. I may have lost track. That said, it is not safe to assume that because the carb was rebuilt recently that all is well in that department. Things change. Grit comes loose when you're mucking about and ends up where it shouldn't be. Screws come loose. Vacuum sucks gaskets in where they're cracked. Heat warps metal. Nuts holding carb to the manifold work loose, etc., etc. Bear in mind that you may have more than one problem simultaneously. No vacuum leaks found during testing.
Your plug reading shows it running way too rich. No news there. Is that from idling or running down the road and quick shut off (plug chop)? If it's just from idling then there is excess fuel feeding the idle circuit for some reason. If it's from running down the road perhaps fuel is siphoning into the main-jet discharge tube for some reason; loose main jet? Again, you may have more than one problem. Is this a W-1 Carter or a YF or something else? If a YF, perhaps the accelerator pump has succumbed to ethanol. But then you say it obviously squirts when it should. If it's a Rochester B there are all sorts of problems associated with warpage and pluggage that I'm not competent to comment on. Carter YF rebuilt from core and kit from Carbking. Number stamped on metering rod was correct for application.
I'll chase down the generic lean-mixture-off-idle problem.
Usually a stumble on throttle opening is caused by a lean condition or retarded timing or both. It idles normally, you say at about 1-1/2 turns out on the idle screw? Correct. But wants to die when the throttle is opened? Correct. as though something apparently starves it of fuel when it comes off idle. Or, perhaps it's idling too rich and then starves for fuel as soon as the throttle is opened?
On most carbs, there are two tiny, tiny ports in the carb throat, one above and one below the throttle blade when it's at idle position. The one below is the idle port which is fed through the idle mixture screw. The one above is the "transfer port" and provides extra fuel (and on some carbs a fuel/air emulsion) as the edge of the throttle blade moves above it, exposing it to vacuum. If this transfer port is plugged with a tiny bit of grit, the engine will idle normally but stumble as the throttle is opened. One is tempted to compensate for this by advancing the spark or enrichening the idle mixture or both but then it idles too rich and pings on acceleration and you still have a stumble off idle.
If there's a vacuum leak at the manifold flange for some reason, you'll lose the vacuum signal to the power circuit and it'll be rich all the time except at idle and the vacuum will be low off idle and the transfer port will not suck enough fuel. If the vacuum passage is plugged with gasket cement or whatever, you'll have a permanent rich condition as the power valve will be open or the metering rods will be up, depending on carb design, but the transfer port should behave normally. I've checked for vacuum leaks at every possible point and found none but I'll check again.
Fixing the transfer port problem may not be easy as you can't get an air nozzle into the carb throat easily. Try pulling a bristle from your wire brush and use that to poke into the transfer port. Then use an air nozzle that has a long tube you can bend and squirt air into the port. Finally, blow air from the other end and put your thumb in the throat to feel if there's an air jet coming out.
This is all a lot of trouble so check that all the carb parameters are correct first, eg. float level, float drop, float jet size, correct size check balls in where they should be, gasket integrity, air-horn warpage, loose screws for secondary venturi, (if any) warped accelerator pump diapahram retainer or loose screws there (if any). No warpage detected on glass and with straight edge.
My best guess is that you have two problems: 1) High float level, perhaps caused by grit stuck in the float valve. 2) Blocked transfer port, again caused by grit. A third possibility is that you have turned the idle screw out to compensate for the off-idle problem and that is the cause of the rich plug reading and you still have the transfer port problem. I spent over an hour getting the float level set perfectly with a steel drill bit as a gauge. I'll be amazed if that turns out to be the problem.
I'm hedging my bets here because it's really hard to troubleshoot remotely where I forgot what somebody said several posts ago.
Just a reminder that this problem developed after several months of trouble free operation. It seems to have begun at roughly the same time that the Chinese fuel pump died.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
Take a picture of your distributer ,cap off showing the points.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
YF carburetors will run rich once the ethanol created a small hole in the accelerator pump diaphragm . The flooding will become more severe as that hole gets larger. I had that happen to me coming home on day. I had 5 miles to get home. I could tell that it was running way too rich. To make it home through numerous red lights, I pulled the throttle knob out to open the throttle plate in order to burn most of that excess gas coming in past that diaphragm at stop lights. I had to find the magic spot to leave the throttle knob which would burn the excess fuel , but not rev the engine too high with no load. This worked like a champ.
1952 5-window - return to "as built" condition | 1950 3100 with a 235 and a T-5 transmission
This truck has been run on non ethanol fuel since the replacement of the entire fuel system a year ago with only one partial fillup with ethanol. That mixed with the existing ethanol free gas. It doesn't sit around, either, so I don't think the few gallons of ethanol have had a chance to do any damage.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
Not to be confrontational, but with black soot like what you have described, I can't think of any other component which you have not already addressed that would cause this except a hole in the YF accelerator pump diaphragm. It happens to mine about every year and a half. Good luck to you.
1952 5-window - return to "as built" condition | 1950 3100 with a 235 and a T-5 transmission
That's the direction I've been leaning. I don't know how it could have been damaged since the entire fuel system is essentially sterilized with all new components from the tank to the carb.
I spritzed a little burst of compressed air in the inlet in case some debris was clogging up the needle or something but no luck.
I guess I'm going to have to open it up and see what I find. I hope I don't have to do this every year!
This carb has only been on for 4 months and 2 or 300 miles
Last edited by Otto Skorzeny; 09/01/20221:57 AM.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
That's the direction I've been leaning. I don't know how it could have been damaged since the entire fuel system is essentially sterilized with all new components from the tank to the carb.
I spritzed a little burst of compressed air in the inlet in case some debris was clogging up the needle or something but no luck.
I guess I'm going to have to open it up and see what I find. I hope I don't have to do this every year!
This carb has only been on for 4 months and 2 or 300 miles
No offence meant by me. I was just trying to prod you into checking out the accelerator pump diaphragm.
1952 5-window - return to "as built" condition | 1950 3100 with a 235 and a T-5 transmission
Here is another thought and one a lot of people seem to miss. It will cause a YF to run slightly rich to very rich tout de suite. It can also cause overnight leak-down and your YF won't ever work properly as long as this condition is present. You can see how I solve it: https://tinyurl.com/ujs9xmbj
~ Jon 1952 1/2 ton with 1959 235 | T5 with 3.07 rear end
YF carburetors will run rich once the ethanol created a small hole in the accelerator pump diaphragm . The flooding will become more severe as that hole gets larger. I had that happen to me coming home on day. I had 5 miles to get home. I could tell that it was running way too rich. To make it home through numerous red lights, I pulled the throttle knob out to open the throttle plate in order to burn most of that excess gas coming in past that diaphragm at stop lights. I had to find the magic spot to leave the throttle knob which would burn the excess fuel , but not rev the engine too high with no load. This worked like a champ.
All vehicles should have a hand throttle. For this, and many other reasons.
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
As you recall the newly rebuilt , original style, glass bowl fuel pump works perfectly. This was after two brand new ones failed - one in only a few hundred miles, the other didn't work straight from the box.
Stumbling bog and backfire persisted and after ruling out ignition and timing, the culprit seemed to be the freshly rebuilt carburetor.
As last ditch effort before removing the carburetor and looking for internal problem I sprayed every orifice with carb cleaner and put some puffs of compressed air into the the fuel inlet.
Problem has disappeared, Truck is back to running its reasonably smooth and quiet self with no bog on acceleration or backfiring, etc. Hopefully this is the end of it.
The entire fuel system is brand new so if there was debris finding its way into the carburetor I don't know where it could have come from.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)
Just saw your post re the fuel pump rebuild by "Then and Now Automotive". When I Googled, I'm finding multiple places called Then and Now Automotive..... two of which are within 30 minutes of me here in GA. If you will, please tell me where they're located. Would be much appreciated.
Just saw your post re the fuel pump rebuild by "Then and Now Automotive". When I Googled, I'm finding multiple places called Then and Now Automotive..... two of which are within 30 minutes of me here in GA. If you will, please tell me where they're located. Would be much appreciated.
Last edited by Gdads51; 02/18/20262:50 AM. Reason: update to new web address
Kevin 1951 Chevy 3100 work truck Follow this saga in Project Journal Photos 1929 Ford pickup restored from the ground up. | 1929 Ford Special Coupe (First car) Busting rust since the mid-60's If you're smart enough to take it apart, you darn well better be smart enough to put it back together.
Yes, the place in Massachusetts is the one who did it.
Used the truck for work yesterday making my service calls. Put over 100 miles on it and it ran like a Swiss watch.
Last edited by Otto Skorzeny; 09/30/202212:56 PM.
1950 Chevrolet 3100 (Ol' Roy)
1939 Packard Standard Eight Coupe (The Phantom) | 1956 Cadillac Coupe de Ville (The Bismarck) | 1964 Ford Galaxie 500 coupe |1966 Ford Mustang (Little Red) | 1969 Pontiac GTO (The Dishpit) I 1979 Ford F-100 | 1976 Ford F-150 (Big Red) | 1995 Ford F-150 (Newt)