The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Why won’t it start?

We're discussing two different "restrictors"- - - -any muddying the water some more. The bypass filter standpipe has a 1/16" hole in it to restrict oil flow back to the crankcase. The cylinder head has a restrictor to control oil flow to the rocker arms. Discussing those flow controls in this situation is like comparing apples to Kiwi fruit! Neither one is going to affect oil pressure at the gallery that runs along the driver's side of the block, no matter how it's plumbed.
Jerry

I plainly said I was wanting to warn the poster, advised them to verify my restrictor comments and was curious why "no tee" for a gauge on the block. There can be a restriction fitting that is neither in the stand pipe nor in the head.
Read no. 2 instruction. This is what led me to open a discussion to clear the air, not muddy the water. I post what I think is important. Don't need your blessing.

You do need to wag more, that's for sure.

You won't find this instruction in your book of snide remarks.

I'm headed over to give these nice folks some hands on help in a few days. Feel free to come on by and lend a hand.
Jerry

Doing my best from 1600 miles away. Hard to ignore your snide comments.

We greatly appreciate all the advice! Any & all are certainly welcome! We have plenty of room! I'm just ecstatic you're willing to come help! Today I'm going to make a video showing the rocker head screws. Steve started adjusting the lash per Jerry's instructions. We had absolutely no trouble understanding the instructions (believe it or not, LOL) and we were making progress, however, some of the rocker screws had to be unscrewed quite a bit to get the feeler gauge to fit. We didn't think this was normal, so Steve stopped the adjustment. I'll try to show on the video what I'm talking about.

Also, we have not attempted to start engine and will NOT until you say distributor placement, timing and lash settings are all good to go! I'm going to also video each step we do that you instruct us on and will put a link here.
Thanks again!

SuziQ

If you're having to back the adjusters out more than one turn or so, either someone has made a major error with a previous adjustment, or the position of the crankshaft, piston, and camshaft isn't right. Try rechecking the rocker arms on the companion cylinder to be sure things are set up right. Once again, after a few hundred repetitions, it gets easy to do. The fact you're willing to try speaks volumes about your determination!

I came across an engine once where someone had installed shorter than standard pushrods, and had to put the lock nuts UNDER the rocker arm so he could turn the adjusting screw down far enough to get the clearance right! Never assume the last guy who was in there knew what he was doing!
Jerry

Jerry I had mentioned to Steve he could press the starter from the firewall side. The clutch is still engaged so he thinks I have to hold the clutch in to start it.

SuziQ

With the transmission in neutral, it doesn't matter if the clutch is engaged or not. Also, if you jack up one rear wheel and put a jack stand under the axle housing, the wheel can spin as the engine turns and the truck won't move. When I'm working by myself and need to hold the clutch or brake pedal down for some reason, I cut a piece of broom stick or a 2 X 4 to length to wedge between the seat and the pedal.
Jerry

Ok I actually said to him if it’s in neutral you could start it without the clutch engaged and I also said that about cutting a board to hold it, but I said a 2x4.
So I’m happy you are affirming what I said earlier! LOL But in his defense, he did jack the rear wheels up as you mentioned and I never thought of that.

He wants to change the transmission to a 4 on floor, but I’m insistent on keeping it as is. I’m looking forward to driving a manual 3 speed again, I learned to drive on one many many years ago!

SuziQ

The only 4 speed that's a bolt in swap has a "granny gear" 1st. gear that's useless for street driving. It's there to get a maximum load in the bed (or a big overload) moving on an uphill grade. Going to a newer design automobile 4 speed like a Muncie or a Saginaw will also involve changing the entire driveline- - - -driveshaft, rear axle, etc. Ditto for the 5 speed T-5 overdrive trans which is what all the cool kids do these days! A couple of years ago I was involved in swapping a column shift 3 speed to a SM-420 4 speed in an early 1950's 1/2 ton truck. Just finding all the parts to do the conversion took several months, and the universal joint at the back end of the transmission is almost nonexistent these days. Translation- - - -"E$$$$pensive!)
Jerry

Thanks for the info! Steve just thinks the stick shifts are cooler I think. He doesn’t know which is best/practical. When I asked him he said “I just want it to shift!” (??) He drive an Audi when I met him that had a stick manual transmission.

Here’s a video I made today kind of showing an overview of the engine right now and our concerns.



Any thoughts are greatly appreciated, as always!

SuziQ

Suzi and Steve, saw you new video.
You need to focus on a few things more carefully.
1. First thing is to get the motor timed. It's OK to want the rotor to point at 5 oclock. But it really makes no difference where it points as long as the no. 1 piston is at Top dead Center on the compression stroke. Where ever the rotor ends up is where no. spark plug wire goes. Then you proceed to wire plugs per firing order from there. If others say 5 oclock then do 5 oclock.

2. Don't just say Top dead Center, ALWAYS say top dead center ON THE COMPRESSION STROKE. There are two TDC's on every piston. One has compression when thumb is places over the hole and one does not. This is one way some folks confirm timing as well as seeing the ball in the window. Which will also show up twice. Others have other methods, but the ball or facsimile mark must be near the pointer. Your motor is a 1959 so may not have a ball.

3. The TDC on compression stroke of no. 1 with mark in window, observing rotor, shows you which distributor wire hole is no. 1. That's timing. Then you tweak from there. I think you are moving ahead on too many things for us to keep up. Let's do one thing at a time. Wait for the visit. Please advise Steve to stop taking distributor out. Don't crank it anymore.

4. Remember when you search for parts, you have a 49 truck and a 59 motor except for flywheel and starter.

5. You DO have a TEE in the right place. Eventually you will take out the pipe plug and install the gauge tubing.

6. You have NOT confirmed that you understand, and have, a coil that is a externally resisted and a starter button with a side terminal.

7. I could not follow what you guys did with feeding the carb. What I see is the fuel pump outlet with a tube sticking out. For now you DO NOT want to have the fuel pump inlet hooked to the gas tank because if there is gum and debris it will be sucked into the pump unless there is a filter before the pump. For your gas situation there are only two choices. Attach a clean gas container directly to the fuel pump intake and leave the fuel pump outlet stay attached to the carb. This can be a gas can on the floor near the front tire with a hose from the pump inlet down into the gas can.. The pump will suck the gas up out of the gas can and into the carb. Option two is to attach a hose directly from a container to the carb inlet. No fuel pump involved. The container needs to be higher than the carb so gas flows by gravity. This info is not to encourage you do do anything or try to start the motor. It's info for later. Keep Steve in the house. Maybe you have some of this stuff above covered, I can not tell until you tell me. Your explanations need to be more specific. I know that it is hard for someone who does not know the buzz words yet and the names of things. It's also hard to detect if you have installed the necessary parts.

8. The braided ground strap is OK. The battery cable is not. Put it on the same bolt as the braid on what looks like the foot start bracket bolt or on a starter mounting bolt.

9. Using the house switch hurts my brain but it works.

10. I know some of this has been mentioned already but not confirmed to be understood and performed.

11. This is general info. Not meant to be a class in automotive technician school.

Interesting video- - - - -Since the crankshaft turns twice for one turn of the distributor, there was nothing wrong with the distributor position or the firing order. The ball and pointer in the bell housing window will align twice- - - -once when the #1 cylinder is ready to fire, and one turn of the crankshaft later when it's time for #6. The distributor will only make half a turn during that time. That's why watching the movement of the rocker arms is absolutely essential.

Unless you're turning the crankshaft to the right position between each cylinder's valve adjustment, no wonder you're getting lots of clearance on some of the valves. The valve adjustment needs to wait for another phone call or a visit. Ditto for positioning the distributor in the block so we're sure the oil pump drive is engaged. "One step forward- - - - -two steps back" might be OK for country line dancing, but it makes getting an engine running just a bit difficult!
Jerry

Very interesting comments! Wow, I am learning sooo much! Love it! I am going to respond with a picture or two also᠁give me a few minutes.

SuziQ

Addendum to my post.

The triangle is not a timing mark. Pay no attention to it. You probably have U I C. The line between U and C is TDC. UC stands for Upper Center. The old word for TDC. There may be a ball at 5 or 6 deg before that line. Your flywheel is from another motor and may be old style markings. Look for the ball before the line, clean the flywheel. Gross timing is set on the BB ball.
You may also have I O I, I think the O is a stamped version of an embedded BB Ball. you may also see 5° stamped on the FW.

Since you taking pictures take a few of the carb something caught my eye.

There is a way to establish an absolutely accurate top dead center mark for a specific crankshaft/flywheel/harmonic balancer combination, one we race engine builders have been using since long before I was born, but it's not something to explain with a keyboard. I learned it from my father, who began building engines in the mid-1930's.

I have a complete column shift linkage, including the lever arm box, that was left over from the 4 speed conversion. We might be able to do a little horse trading, as I would be able to take what's left of yours and machine a new top piece to complete it.

As my Vietnamese lady friend used to say "what the heck going on?"

Ok᠁here goes!
Bart’s comments:
Yes, we agree we DO need to focus! (Steve says, “I hear what you’re saying guys!”) I am definitely the eager beaver one!
1) motor timing- We did not know that it didn’t matter where the rotor points. We thought it had to be at 5 o’clock if the #1 piston was at TDC on compression stroke. This is mainly based on our experience the other night, because the #1 piston WAS at TDC on the compression stroke. I understand now, “wherever the rotor ends up is where #1 spark plug wire goes.” Believe me, I’ve got that firing order etched in my brain now 1-5-3-6-2-4!

2) I’m learning the lingo - I promise to always say, “TDC on the COMPRESSION stroke” when referring to that. When you say, “there are two TDCs on every piston, one has compression when thumb is placed over the hole and one does not.” I take it you mean the #1 spark plug hole? You place your thumb over the hole and feel for a puff of air? We did that the other night and the rotor was pointing in the 5 o’clock position. Today the rotor is at 11:00 and I’m pretty sure the timing mark in bell housing peek hole is on the pointer. However, after reading Jerry’s comment, “The ball and pointer in the bell housing window will align twice – once when the cylinder is ready to fire, and one turn of the crankshaft later when it’s time for #6”, makes me think that’s what’s happening here. Am I looking at this correctly?
Good to know why our motor doesn’t have a ball but a triangle mark!

3) Timing understood. Yes I am probably moving on too many things making it hard to keep up! I promise I will WAIT for Jerry’s visit! Steve promises to stop taking distributor out, lol. We both promise NOT to crank it anymore.

4) Understood I need to mention we have a 1959 motor and the original 138 teeth flywheel and 6 v starter.

5) Glad there is a tee in the right place. Steve says, “it’s plugged up though” lol I told him you said eventually he will need to take the “pipe plug” out. We didn’t know that was a pipe plug᠁mystery solved!

6) Please see photo for clarification on coil. There is no side terminal on the 6v starter. Is it suppose to have one?

7) We have not hooked up the fuel pump inlet to the gas tank. I read somewhere of the debris danger so fortunately we didn’t do that! As for the 2 gas choices: We did Option #1 and it didn’t work. Which lead us to believe the fuel pump was bad, until we disconnected it and there was gas in the line. THEN we tried option #2 and it didn’t seem to work but Steve prob didn’t have it elevated enough. Since he works til 5:00, some of this is done late at night when neither one of us are at our best. Steve would LOVE to stay in the house sometimes, trust me! 😂 I drag him out to help! We appreciate your advice and I have printed yours and Jerry’s comments for FUTURE reference. It’s hard for me to detect if we’ve installed the necessary parts! Hence the video today. Please let me know if I need to focus on one area.

8) Steve read your comments and now knows he needs to move the battery cable to the bracket bolt or a starter mounting bolt. His comment was, “I guess that’s more directly ground.”

9) I’m with you on the light switch but Steve insisted. We need to buy a proper ignition switch

10) I don’t mind clarifying anything so please don’t hesitate to ask!

11) I would love to have been a student in Jerry’s automotive class!!

Kevinski, here you go! We bought a carb rebuilt kit and rebuilt this carb (as best we could) but Steve said there was one part that didn’t fit. We can’t tell if it’s a Rochester A, B, or C model carburetor but they didn’t ask when I ordered it! The rebuild kit I think was for a B.

At this point, I will try any method you guys recommend to get the timing right. As far as the 4 speed shifting gear, I want to keep the “3 on the tree”! I love driving a manual shift on the column! I’m not a purist, but I guess there is something to leaving it as original as possible. Then there’s the costs involved in switching.

SuziQ

I am going to look again tomorrow on the flywheel for the U I C and the 5. I know there’s a 5, I saw it and I think a 0. I’d like to settle that once for all because it would definitely help to know what the timing mark is on our flywheel.

SuziQ

If any of those marks are visible in the timing window and everything else is aligned properly, the engine will start. It might not run perfectly or get the world's best gas mileage, but it will run. It's just not as critical to get everything letter-perfect as some people think. Having the distributor engaged with the right tooth on the camshaft, and properly engaged in the oil pump, plus making sure the spark plug wires are correct is vitally important. A few, or even several degrees off of perfect at the flywheel marks is about #12 of the 10 most important details to be concerned with.
Jerry

2. All the pistons have the same 4 strokes. The valve pairs do the same thing for each piston/chamber. Each plug fires it's designated piston at TDC compression of that cylinder. Now forget I said all that. No. 1 is all you care about.

You see that 11 oclock is 180 from 5 oclock so it indicates you are 180 out. Rotor at 5 oclock at no. 1 piston TDC compression , that's it, that's no. 1 spark plug wire location when cap is on distributor. The rotor will probably be a little past pointing at the distributor hole, that's normal. hard to stop exactly especially when it's set to be advanced. i think you got it right in your mind now.

"Good to know why our motor doesn’t have a ball but a triangle mark!" NO, read my addendum. look for a mark/ball as described in addendum. The triangle is not anything for you. It's a factory assembly mark.

6. Coil good, get proper button switch. I linked that part number and vendor on page 2. You are probably OK for now but points may get somewhat damaged if you run too long. The side terminal switch allows for two coil connections, One for starting only, because starter takes so much power from battery, points get direct connection, when truck starts and foot it lifted, the switch then sends power to coil thru ballast to protect points (reduces voltage to about 8-9 volts while driving).
I did go over how to wire these parts in a previous post.

7. I see you understand the gas thing but you are not ready for that. Make a list for the visit of things to ask.

It’s a Rochester bc by the looks of it .will have to see how it goes you say it was taken off and tampered with ,if so may become a factor as the process evolves .leave it until the other issues are sorted out. Most trucks came with a Rochester b carb with a Manuel choke yours is a non functioning auto choke,and looks like the linkages were bent to fit but leave it until Jerry walks you to that fork in the road.

I think they see they are building a carb with one hand, timing with other hand, one foot is holding the gas can and one foot kicking the cat. I don't know how they type the posts? Maybe Alexa does it.

They promise to go to their room for time out and wait for the Cavalry. A guy with an N-95 on a motorcycle face shield.

Actually, he's got a portable oxygen tank strapped to that Harley, riding in 6 inches of snow. Masks are for sissies!
Jerry

Tech tip of the year:
The easiest way to find TDC compression/gross time your motor/install Dizzy is to take out all plugs. Put a Kleenex in no 1. just enough to plug the entire hole, just medium tight. Turn motor by hand with a wrench til Kleenex blows out. Done it that way for many years. You can use a remote start button but the crank will run past a little, thus making rotor run past a little but you still know it's the hole CCW of rotor. If installing Dizzy afterwards, wind it in there and make it point where you like by rotating the oil pump shaft with a long screw driver. Then tweak time by ear or performance. Don't have to take valve cover off, no piston stop. No straw, No vacuum gauge or thumb. No helper, no remote starter, no mistakes. Wipe off the wrench with the Kleenex.

Crowdfunding accepted.

Where does he connect the remote starter on a 235 with a foot start? The valve cover is already off.

If this is a serious question: A tech tip is a general How-to, not necessarily specific to one motor. The tip mentions hand turn OR remote turn. If a person has the valve cover off, then the valve cover is off.


I realize that this particular thread is a 235 foot start. The tip is easily applicable to this thread.

Different than racer stories without an ending.

I.E. "There is a way to establish an absolutely accurate top dead center mark for a specific crankshaft/flywheel/harmonic balancer combination."

Not relevant to this post's motor. After establishing that absolute accuracy is not necessary and is about #12 of the 10 most important details to be concerned with. Was not even thinking of mentioning that until this latest "question." If it was in jest, disregard.

I knew some destruction derby "racers" at the fair and jalopy racers that had a lot of good ideas.

Jerry and Bartamos

This thread is supposed to be about helping another bolter, not taking potshots at each other. Please knock it off and concentrate on helping.

Thanks

To clarify the different markings on your flywheel, a fellow ‘bolter “Pre 68 Dave” has an excellent website on Stovebolt motors. Here is a [LINK] on the different markings.

He also has allot of interesting and informative info under “Topics” on that same web page.

I believe this dead horse has been thoroughly flagellated. Good luck!
Jerry

Hello! I just took some photos of the markings on the flywheel. (See below) Here’s what I got! There is not a “6” only a “5”, but since just me out here I didn’t do a full rotation of the motor. Please advise! Thanks!

Hope everyone is having a wonderful Wednesday. Its a beautiful day here in north Mississippi, 54 degrees and sunny today but going to be COLD tomorrow and 80% chance of SNOW! What’s it like in your neck of the woods?

Hi Suzi and Steve, hope Mom is OK.

You have the style U I C O 5 The I between U and C is TDC...........the O is the BALL..........the 5 signifies that the ball gives five degrees of advance timing.

Set the pointer on the BALL........you have the BALL

The better way to say it is: When you find TDC compression on no. 1, you should see the pointer near the ball. That will be close enough for now. Then observe where rotor points. Put on the dizzy cap and wire the dizzy per firing order starting at where rotor points. Most of the time the rotor is just past the correct dizzy hole because of the lag time of you stopping rotation and the advance needed.
The finishing touch is done with a timing light attached to no. 1 plug, motor running at idle, timing light flashing thru the hole in bell housing so as to see the pointer. You then turn the Dizzy until ball is right on the pointer.

This will be TMI (Too Much Info) But you seem to want to learn and that is part of what Stovebolt is.
We all are talking about TDC compression. Finding TDC compression on no. 1 cylinder. Initially you find it by feeling the actual pressure with your thumb or your favorite method. This tells you that you are not on the exhaust stroke but are actually on the compression stroke. So you stop turning the motor. Set the dizzy and plug in the wires. You won't be exactly where the motor runs the best, just close. But motor will start.
So then on these older motors, you look into the hole in the bell housing where there is a pointer and some markings on the flywheel. Hopefully still in the window. That brings us to this other TDC we keep talking about. These marks. One is actual TDC that tells you when the piston is at one of it's TDC's (exhaust or compression). But you know it's the compression one because you felt it or saw the Kleenex blow out or you are a looker at valves. Now then, here is the coupe de grass. We don't do anything with that TDC mark on the flywheel except say "hey that's cool, I think I did this kind of right!"
But we know that Chevy wants us to actually have the pointer on some other mark because we need to have the proper advance timing. What's that mean? Well, the spark causes an explosion inside the cylinder chamber. in this case, 6 explosions, one at a "time". This is what gives us the power to drive the wheels for Suzi to go shopping.

BUT!!!!!!!! when should the explosion happen? It needs to happen when the piston is on it's way down from TDC. NOT on it's way up to TDC. that would blunt the power. SO.......the engineers said hey, that piston is sure traveling fast going up and down and up and down. If we initiate the spark at TDC and the fuel ignites and blows up and the energy translates to a force on the piston top, the piston will be long gone down. We need to "time" the initiation of spark "before" that. Like "before" TDC. Like in "advance" of TDC. Just a tad. So lets try initiating spark at 5 degrees Before Top Dead Center and let's call it 5 Deg BTDC. Heck the flywheel and all that distributor stuff is all bolted or geared together. Splendid idea. So tell the owners to set the timing at 5 deg BTDC. How will they know when that is? How about a BB or a ball on the flywheel? So they can be on the ball. Get it? On the ball. Then depending on what gas they use, how old the motor is, what altitude they live in, what climate they are in and what day it is, they can tweak it till it runs good. But wait! as the piston goes faster and faster, 5 deg won't be enough advance. OK we will add variable advance with weights or vacuum. Stuff like that. Splendid idea.

Later on, GM got rid of the flywheel markings and made it a lot easier. Marks on the harmonic balancer with hash marks on either side of "ZERO" (TDC) and a pointer sticking out of the block............ or just one mark on the balancer (TDC) and a plate attached to the block with a zero and hash marks on either side.

Just in case: A timing light shows you when no.1 plug is firing. It actually is a strobe light in effect. "Freezing" the flywheel to see the marks. If the pointer is not on the ball, you rotate the dizzy until it is. Then you tighten the dizzy clamp bolt. Small adjustments to eliminate slight ping can be made using the octane selector without loosening the dizzy clamp bolt.

File it under FYI TMI FWIW

Just to add if the distributer was taken out of the motor make shure it is back in all of the way down as it has to line up with the slot for the oil pump and when the gears mesh together the rotor will move making it a little bit of a challenge to get it in the right spot .if the distributer was mot taken out and only the cap was taken off then this is just good to know imfo for another day . When as explained above the timing marked are close the two valves on number one cylinder will be both closed.(rockers not pushing down on valves)

Bartamos the tissue trick is very clever!

SuzieQ, the 5 o'clock position for Number 1 is about where the factory set the distributors up at. One reason, it leant itself to a little less confused spark plug wiring. the others are right, you can wire it from any of the positions, but I like to set mine up at 5 o'clock. I think it looks neater. So if you want to use the 5 o'clock position, now is the time to do it. the 59 235 timing was 5 degrees before top dead center. The 59 flywheel was set up so that the bb was at 5 btdc, but not all of the flywheels had bbs. Most did, some did not. See the link. Jerry is also correct in that if you get it within a couple of degrees, you can get the motor started. Let me post a couple of things that may (maybe not, lol) be helpful.

https://chev235guy.blogspot.com/search/label/Flywheel%20Timing%20Marks

To add to bartamos post, here is a picture of your’s with an arrow point at the “BB” and a picture of what it looks like cleaned up.

Wow! No, not TMI! This is all good & useful information! Thank you everyone!
Yes Bart, I am inquisitive, always have been and always will be! So thanks for taking the time to go into detail to explain the TDC markings and how the engine relates to them. To be honest, I never thought much about engines before now. I’m sure it’s a “girl thing”. We just turn the key and go! Lol We women rely on the men in our lives to rescue us when engines go bad. My dad, who passed away October 2020 from cancer, was the quintessential “fix it” guy. I could always count on him to fix anything for me - from cars to dishwashers - and he was happy to do it. He did this not only for me, but for our whole family. We all depended on dad. About 4 years ago my car broke down on I78 just south of Memphis, dad drove all the way from Oxford and back (3.5 hrs) to fix it. Through the years, I can recall at least 5 other times dad rescued me on the side of the road. Also, Steve and I own rental property and dad was always willing to repair things for us, free of charge (“you pay for the part, that’s all.”) Steve unfortunately doesn’t have the”fix it” gene, at least not to the extent my dad did. He used to say, “I don’t know what we’re going to do when your dad is no longer here.” Well now we are there and we PAY for someone to repair things for us. We don’t mind, but it only reinforces how much dad helped us out, a true gesture of love on his part.
So that’s why this has been so exciting for me! To be so interested in this at this time of my life and to be learning so much from everyone on this forum, is truly invaluable. I only wish dad was here to share it with me! He died before we bought the ‘49. When my mom saw it for the first time she said my dad’s father, my grandfather, owned one just like it! She told me she and dad dated in it! How I’d love to have that truck! ❤️

Awesome. Maybe you don't see it, but you have your Dad's fix-it gene.