The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Why won’t it start?

Trying to see if our ‘49 we purchased runs. It has a 235 straight 6. We are converting to 12v so bought new 12v battery, new starter, new distributor & cap, new 12v coil, new plugs and wires, rebuilt carb, added a new ballast resistor. No ignition switch or new wiring harness yet so jumping it off from the battery and pouring gas straight into carb. Tested to see if we’re getting spark to the plugs and we are. Engine tries to start and hits occasionally but it almost seems like something shuts it down right afterwards! What could we be doing wrong? Maybe the battery to starter to ignition coil not connected right to jump it? We have the + on ignition coil wired to ballast resistor and negative on coil to distributor. Thanks for any advice.

Before you proceed further take a few minutes to read the Stovebolt Tech Tip on bringing a dead engine back to life. You could save yourself a few thousand dollars. Tech Tips can be found in the menu bar at the top of the page.

If you put a new starter on make shure it matches the flywheel .6 volt flywheel does not mix with a 12 volt starter.

So the flywheel needs to be replaced when you convert to 12v?

No, flywheel does not need to be replaced. If you used a 6V starter, same as came off of it, you are OK. If it's a 235 from the 12V era and used a 12V starter, same as came off it, it's also OK. Kevin is saying you can't mix them unless flywheel matches starter. (teeth/pitch)

Provided you have the correct starter, it seems like a wiring issue as you said. If you advise if you have a foot start or somehow have a solenoid starter instead, I will go over the wiring with you.

I understand you just want to wire enough to get it started. No problem. Make sure you are VERY specific with wiring. You did not explain how you have it wired. EVERY wire, every cable, every ground. Just saying you have + connected to ballast and neg to dizzy doesn't get it. There are certainly more wires than that? We can't catch a miswire until we know how you have it wired.

See you tomorrow.

I converted my old 55.1 panel to 12v and used the 6v starter. I put over 100K on the truck without issues. The 6v starter will turn the engine much faster than a 12v starter and will be happy doing it if you don't leave it engaged for long periods of time. I recently converted my 53 car to 12v using the 6v starter and all is well. If you're also converting your 49 from stomp start to an electric solenoid you will need to use a 12v solenoid on your 6v starter. PM me for the correct solenoid and how to solve the connection issues you'll face doing that.

SuziQ,

Let's look at a different scenario. Ist disconnect any wires from the + terminal on the coil, Now let's pretend we are going to steal the truck. Run a jumper wire from the + on the battery to the + on the coil, try to start the truck. If it starts, Talk to Bartamos, He likes to play with electricity. You have a wireing problem. Good Luck.

To Bartamos: here is how we have it wired now just to get it to run. The old wiring harness is removed, no new one yet.
+ from battery to + on starter, - on battery to - on starter, husband added a household electric switch (so we can turn it off quickly) one wire to + on starter and other wire to one of the hookups on ballast resistor, + on coil going to other hookup on ballast resistor, - on coil to distributor.

To Tommy: I’m, we tried it using your scenario but it didn’t start. BUT please look at my post to Bartamos on how it’s wired. My husband added that household switch to turn it off quick. I wonder if that is interfering with the circuit? He tested the coil that’s attached to the resistor and it brought voltage down from 12v to 6v, so the ballast resistor is doing it’s job᠁.prob need to put a 6v starter on it instead of the 12v one we bought.

The glass shop guys couldn't start my '48 when I left it there. They were putting the key in the full right position which is Off. They didn't know straight up is On.

(I reread the post. "Hits occasionally says above is not the answer.)

Make another post or two so you can get access to the PM feature, and send me a private message. I'm close enough to make a road trip to help get the engine going.
Jerry

That's a nice offer!

They can't PM you, but you could PM them with your contact info.

The PM block works both ways. Hands-on work, or even a phone call, works a lot better than a bunch of confusing diagnosis suggestions. They're about 100 miles southwest of me.
Jerry

If you are arranging for a stovebolter to come and help, let us know so we can back off. If not, I will post the necessary info. I do see a problem or three.

Thanks to all who are so willing to help with their expertise! We certainly appreciate all the help we can get since we are new to this. I am totally in love with my ‘49 and can tell I share that with all you fellow members! It has been so much fun learning about the 235 inline 6 engine and each baby-step progression getting us closer to hearing her run, the first time in many many years!

I can't wait for the moderated time to go so we can see pictures!! Enjoy the journey, it never stops!

I was wondering how I post photos! So there is a time wait for approval? We are new and are still in the learning curve!

Click on the side bar that's next to the text area on every page. The heading is "image posting policy". I believe you have enough posts now to access all the functions of the site. Newcomers are "moderated" for a few posts to prevent spammers and other undesirables from bothering long time members with their shenanigans.
Jerry

Hi SuziQ, you didn't say but I will assume you have foot stomp starter and still not sure if the starter you bought has the correct pinion gear on it for the flywheel, so be careful. Most Stovebolters keep their 6V starter when converting to 12V. As said, a stock 12V starter will not work with a 6V flywheel.
Can you give us the part number and the vendor of the starter so we can check it out for you? If it's cranking the motor OK without noise, maybe you really have a 6V starter.

I will give you the general wiring to get it started.

The foot start type starter has a button on top. The foot pedal mechanism lever pushes on that button and also makes the pinion gear slide into the flywheel gear. For a 12V conversion you need the type of starter button with what is called a "side terminal". So in other words, it will have a big battery stud terminal and a smaller terminal on the side. The original 6V starter will have a starter button with a big battery stud but not the side terminal. In this explanation the button I speak of is not a button on the dash, we just call that big button mounted on top of starter a button. It's a switch mounted on top that has a button.

So to wire it all up.
1. Positive battery cable to starter button stud.
2. Negative battery cable to a motor bolt (starter motor mounting bolt is good). To be clear, there is no negative "terminal" on starter for battery negative cable.
3. Wire from the starter button side terminal to positive terminal on coil. No lamp switch.
4. Wire from battery positive or from the big starter stud....to one side of ballast. This wire should have a alligator clip on it for now so you can remove wire to stop motor.
5. Other side of ballast to positive terminal on coil.
6. Negative terminal on coil to distributor.
7. You end up with two wires on coil positive.
8. Start motor and report back what happens before changing anything.
9. You sort of had it wired correctly to start motor, but would burn out points in time. It should have started however. Which leads me to the part below.

Additional info to consider:
Keep this in mind. We don't know if it's a wiring thing or not but at least if you follow the instructions it will be right.
We don't know any history of this motor. Was it running good on 6V and you just did a few easy conversion 12V modifications or was it taken apart and put back together. If so: Was the distributor removed and put back correctly. Was it timed. Were the valves adjusted and so on.

Also it can be a fuel problem. It sounds like you don't have the gas tank hooked up, that may be a good thing if truck has been sitting. Squirting gas into carb is OK to see if it fires but it won't run more than 2-3 seconds on those fumes. So maybe that all that is wrong, we don't know. Also, you say it has spark. You can have spark while cranking starter but when you release the foot pedal there will be no spark to continue the running of motor if wired wrong. Also, you need to have a 12V coil that says "EXTERNALLY RESISTED" or "EXTERNAL RESISTOR REQUIRED" . Hopefully you have not burnt the points by a miswire. You have spark. Best place to check is take out a plug, attach it's wire, place the threaded part on clean motor metal and crank. Look for a spark jump. Hopefully the spark plug wires are routed from the distributor correctly according to the firing order. The rotor on the distributor rotates clockwise.

COIL

Starter Buttonor starter switch with side terminal. We can discuss why the side terminal later. But it is needed. If you don't have a foot stomp start, I can tell you the wiring for a electro-magnetic solenoid.
The parts linked are available at local auto parts stores like O'reillys, etc.

Hello Bart! Yes there is a foot stomp starter button. Thanks for all the info! We had unexpected company this evening so have not been able to try these steps but will do first thing in a.m. I’m so excited at the possibility of it starting. Yes I think we need to get a 6v starter instead of the new 12v one. Maybe I can sell it. I think I saw this forum has a selling site for members.
I have a question, why is “EDITED at 4.21” in all red letters? What does that mean? Have I done something wrong??
Thanks
Suz

I made a major error, fixed it and wanted to be sure you saw it. Didn't know when you might have read the version that had an error. Disregard, I got rid of the confusion just now.

First, send me those numbers we discussed. Since the engine is a late model 235 instead of the original 216, there's a strong possibility you have a 12 volt (168 tooth) flywheel on that engine, which is correct for the 12V starter. Flywheells intended for use with a 6V starter have 139 teeth. Both starters drives have 9 teeth, but the pitch and the depth of the teeth are different to match the flywheels thery work with. 216 and 235 flywheels are interchangeable. The simplest way to be sure they match up properly is to just count how many teeth your flywheel has and buy the right starter.
Jerry

Good luck counting the teeth on a flywheel still on a truck. I tried 5 times and lost count each time. It kept bouncing back from compression. Some nice men came and put a nice white jacket suit on me, pretty tight, but it helped. They brought me home the next day.

I had the same trouble with cutting a 2 x 4. I cut it three times and it was still too short.

Gotta run some 220V wiring next.

There's this nice little tool called a 13/16" socket- - - -it takes spark plugs out and the compression magically goes away!
LOL!
Jerry

I did that, must have been the momentum of the crankshaft weights. It was also windy that day.

OMG! Y’all crack me up!! Ok. Going to find those numbers and send ASAP! Thanks again
Suz

The man I bought the truck from said it was running about “2 years” prior. We bought it in late August 2021. Unfortunately I didn’t know the right questions to ask at the time for more info. It never ran for us even with the old 6v starter it had on it. Everything was corroded and in terrible shape so I think the previous owner stretched the truth a little about when it was running.

FI222J are the letters and numbers stamped on the silver plate beside the distributor

“The old 6v starter it had on it”, so, when you bought the truck it was a 6v starter? If so, you can’t just bolt on a 12v starter and call it good. As stated above, a 6v starter takes a 6v flywheel and 12v starter takes a 12v flywheel. The starters are NOT interchangeable. They will bolt in place but not engage the flywheel properly and will damage both parts. If it was a 6v starter, put a 6v starter back on it. You can operate a 6v starter on 12 volts forever if you don’t abuse it. Thousands of owners have done it for many many years. Don’t be in a hurry to get it running. Hurrying costs money. Read our Tech Tip on resurrecting a dead engine in the Tech Tips section. Click on Tech Tips in the menu bar at the top of the page.

CON 4 L 21 9 above the starter

Ok᠁gosh I hope we haven’t damaged it᠁so can we just go to NAPA and pick up any 6 v starter??

Let our number crunchers tell you exactly what engine you have. Then you can get the starter to match or go to a Starter Shop and have your old 6v starter rebuilt. Depending on how much cranking you have done will determine whether or not you have damaged anything. Look at the teeth on the flywheel and the starter drive. Damage is easily distinguishable from normal wear.

The head casting numbers are 3836848 Apparently we are the proud owners of the infamous “848” head of the 235 that gets better compression! Happy about that! 😊

Jerry did you get the numbers? I posted them in the thread (I believe that’s the name of it). Head casting numbers are 3836848, serial numbers above the distributor are FI222J.

Thank you! Checking now to see if we damaged the flywheel teeth, or starter drive᠁fingers crossed all is well.

SuzieQ,

The Date code you posted - L 21 9 - translates to a block cast on December 21st, 1959, so a model year '60 engine. F 12 22 J translates to an engine made in the Flint, MI plant, assembled and stamped on December 22nd, 1959, and the J designates original service as a light truck "Thriftmaster 235." The head casting '848 is correct for that engine.

The flywheel, if original to that engine, would have a 168-tooth ring gear, which is not compatible with a 6V starter drive gear, as others have said.

Hope this all helps.

Doug

Doug, thank you! Really helps!! Fantastic news!! I crawled under and examined the flywheel and all teeth look great!! 😁

Good job Doug....and that head did not come out until 1956. 12V motor. 12V starter. Suzi, are you sure the starter you removed was a 6V????????

You still should count the teeth to see what the flywheel is.

Let me clarify something. I assumed it was a 6v that came off the truck when we purchased it, it may not have been a 6v but a 12v. It’s so dirty and corroded I don’t know how to tell. So I may have mis spoke earlier and therefore was misleading.

Thanks everyone for your input!!
Suz