The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Do I need a new distributor?

I've done a bunch of searching/reading, so I think I might have found an answer, but would like to confirm before I go spending more money.

First off, I'm working with a 1949 216 that I believe is 100% stock, and has a Carter W-1 carb. I've been struggling with a bunch of starting/rough-running issues over the past year and I don't think I've found/fixed the root issue yet. Last year I replaced the coil, which didn't seen to help. Then I did a complete tune up, replacing the plugs, wires, points, cap/rotor and installed one of Jon's new design condensers. I had the truck running great after that, so I thought I had it fixed, even though I never knew what fixed it. Then one day not much later I had the truck out idling for a bit on it's own and it stopped running. It would not restart. I've been trying ever since to get it running again. I suspected my ignition switch might have gone bad, but I've bypassed it for the time being with a wire directly from the starter terminal to the coil and a light switch It definitely seemed like a spark issue, so I've never touched the carb.

Today I noticed the points were not closing evenly and were only making contact on the outer edge. I installed a new set of "Blue Streak" points and in the process noticed that the electrical connector on the condenser may have been touching the distributor base, or potentially close enough to arc. I'm guessing these two issues were resulting in a weak spark. I finally got the engine running, but the idle is bouncing around and when I try to increase the idle it runs very rough. The timing and dwell are both erratic. The dwell looks like it might be set to about 38, but it bounces around and drops down to as low as 25-ish.

In searching on erratic dwell, it seems a bad distributor could be the issue. My distributor does have a bit of side-to-side movement. I'm not sure what amount is allowable, if any? The uncertainty I'm having is that I had the truck running pretty good, with a steady dwell just a few months ago. It doesn't make sense that somehow now the distributor is the problem. Is there anything else that could be causing erratic dwell, erratic timing, and a bouncing idle?

Underneath the grease cup on the side of the distributor is a spring and plunger that runs on the shaft. I believe the idea behind that is to remove play from the shaft to keep the dwell from changing from the shaft bouncing around within the bushing. If the spring is broken, that might explain your erratic dwell. It's also possible that your bushings are excessively worn, but that would be a gradual thing.

Be sure the new points have a steel spring as well as the copper strip that conducts the current to the points. Some springs are capable of being removed, and the copper strip alone won't provide enough spring tension to keep the dwell steady. Back when all cars had points, we knew to align them by bending the fixed (grounded) point contact to get the best contact surface. "Out of the box" points seldom have the correct alignment. Snap-On, Sun, and several othe tool manufacturers made point aligning tools. They're still available on Ebay.
Jerry

Not all of the early distributors had a spring and Bakelite pad to help keep the shaft steady. Amd I am not certain when that feature became part of the delco Rey design. Shaft wobble will definitely alter the dwell. Could also be excessively or unevenly worn lobes. It does sound like you have a distributor that may be worn beyond its service life.

I repair worn distributors by putting a Torrington needle bearing into the housing and pressing a hard steel sleeve onto the shaft that is an extremely close fit to the needle bearing. When I'm done there's less than .001" wobble between the shaft and the housing.
Jerry

Blog post
Here is my blog post about distributor shaft play and remedy.

Thanks Dave. I'll give that a try. I have added grease to the cup before, but I've never taken it apart to see whether the disk & spring are in there.

Thanks Jerry. My new points do have both a steel spring and the copper strip. I was a little surprised by that because the ones I replaced only had the steel spring. I thought about bending the original points to get better contact, but am glad now that I bought an apparently higher quality set.

Jerry, I found a set of Blue Streak points and condenser that Greg is talking about. I hope I'm not stealing the thread. The points are for a Harley, looks like the ones for my old pan head. Can I use them? Ed

Jerry, I found a set of Blue Streak points and condenser that Greg is talking about. I hope I'm not stealing the thread. The points are for a Harley, looks like the ones for my old pan head. Can I use them on my 54-235? Ed

If there is an antique engine service shop in your area check to see if they have a Sun Distributor machine. Also check car clubs to find if anyone knows of one. One run on the Sun machine will DEFINITELY confirm distributor condition.

greg brown Could put in an HEI and get some dependable ignition. Make one to fit it out of a junkyard donor,using your 4 inch grinder and a drill,make it look like the old one you took out. Then make you a spare to keep under the seat !!!

Would it really be dependable if you need a spare under the seat?

Reliable or not, I carry a spare original-equipment 6v distributor in my trucks - tuned and tested.

Modern condensers might not be reliable.

Ignition parts don't care where they're installed- - - -if they fit, use 'em! Points are nothing but an on/off switch, so if they can be bolted into a stovebolt distributor and the gap (or dwell angle) can be set correctly, you'll be good to go. I'm in the process of installing a pickup coil and a reluctor for a big-cap HEI into a stock-appearing stovebplt distributor. The module can be mounted on a remote heat sink somewhere in the engine compartment, or even under the dash.
Jerry

Hey fixite7, could you provide a few more details on what you're using for a donor HEI? Maybe even humor me with a few pictures........

Thanks,

Use a donor HEI from a 250 or a 292. Grind the shoulder off the housing so it can drop about 1/4" deeper into the stovebolt block and transfer the pinch clamp off a stovebolt distributor (after removing the vacuum chamber) to hold it into the block. The extra depth is to assure that the oil pump drive gets engaged properly. It's been done that way for decades.
Jerry

The distributor you're recommending is the large cap with the coil attached, correct? I like the idea of having the coil integrated with the cap, but they're 'big ugly'.

I know many SBs use the GM HEI mini. Are there any pros or cons to consider given the choice between the two? Langdon's kit would be another option to consider.....

The "mini-HEI" is a highly modified distributor from an early 1980's Chevy 2.8L V6, the one with a centrifugal and vacuum advance instead of electronic timing. The housing must be shortened in a lathe, and a correct drive gear and oil pump drive has to be fabricated. There was only a couple of years of production of that distributor so you're tasked with finding a scarce original unit, or modifying an offrshore-built clone. I've made exactly ONE of them, and I consider the aesthetics of a small cap to be unworthy of the effort involved. The next "small-cap" distributor I make will have an original-looking housing with modern electronics inside, and will still use the rotating-housing vacuum advance system.
Jerry

Okay, thanks Jerry! I'll gets some feelers out and see if I can come up with a decent donor candidate.

I think I had about 8 hours or a bit more of machine shop time in that one, so you'll need to have a lathe and a milling machine, or find a machinist that works "Pro Bono"! If Langdon still sells the modified unit, it's probably more feasible to bite the bullet dollar-wise, and let him do the machine work.
Jerry

Take a look at this:

http://devestechnet.com/Home/HEIgnition

I have Deve's parts to make one up. The process is pretty clever. Deve is a member here so you could contact him directly with any HEI replated questions.

X2
I have been running one of his for several years, runs great.

As soon as my vision after the cataract surgery gets a bit more normal, I'm going to continue with the project to put a HEI trigger system into an original stovebolt housing, That will include the needle bearing upper support instead of running the shaft against the cast iron housing with no bearing. That's bound to be a better choice than some of the other Rube Goldberg attempts at converting a stock distributor to an electronic trigger.
Jerry

My thanks for the input and information everyone!

I've decided to look for a 'Big Ugly' in my local area. I've overcome my angst of the aesthetics and like the idea of having the distributor, coil, and ignition module all in one. Hopefully, it will have room on the side of the 235. Anyone using one?

Any idea what a reasonable price would be for one? If I can't find one locally, I'll probably pursue Tom Langdon's HEI.

Thanks again,

Andy, I used one on my ‘62 235. It’s fit was a bit tight at the pushrod cover but it did fit and ran great.

Thanks Martin, that's good info! If you have time, post a couple of pics........

Sorry Andy, Motor is long gone (sold to another Bolter who is no longer around) and I don’t have any photos.

No worries!

Somebody will have some pics............

Hold down clamp for HEI in 235/261 Chevy: Speedway part #91044030---$10. Works on 216 also. We use a really tight fitting neoprene "O" on the distributor housing for a stop at the right depth for distributor into oil pump setting. Don't have a pic of a Chevy but have one of my Buick which is a 235 with two more cylinders. Housing is larger in diameter than Chevy so used turned down V8 Olds with a shortened V8 Chevy shaft. Not a project for most home garages but has worked great for years. Use junkyard dizzy and NOT the $59 ebay junk.

Note the points parts are all still in place and points dizzy is in trunk.
[img]https://i.postimg.cc/CdcFrsHp/Dar-Dog-HEI-003.jpg[/img]

glenns towing Well I don't carry one but away from home it would be OK. Any modified part would be hard to duplicate,guess any parts store could help you on repairs. I hate to work along the road,and if your not very mechanical it's worse but if your gonna truck gotta do the best you can !!

Thanks Evan!

So far my local search has been fruitless. I still have a couple sources that may come through............

Therer's a "reconditioned" OEM unit on ebay, but it's hidden in a bunch of repops.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174011313238?hash=item2883e1ec56:g:4cEAAOSwLmhdZgvf

Jerry

Thanks Jerry, I'm still looking in the local area. I found an engine shop about 25 miles away. Hopefully, they will have something.

Does it matter which distributor (250 or 292) I end up with? I wonder if the advance curve will be a problem in a 235. I've read that a 292 remains retarded longer, then advances quicker than the 250, due to weaker springs and lighter weights. Also, since the 292 has a longer stroke than the 250 it may tend to detonate easier at low rpms, so they keep the timing back a little longer. The long stroke causess the power curve peaks at a lower rpm so they need to get full advance sooner. Does this sound correct or am I over thinking it?

I'd hate to get the 'Big Ugly' and have to experiment with springs and weights. Heck, I'm having trouble locating a complete HEI distributor as it is, finding the correct internal components would really be a wild goose chase!

I build distributors from scratch, using whatever components I can find, and then tailor the advance curve to whatever operating conditions I expect to deal with. Altering the spring tension and travel of the weights to set total advance isn't particularly difficult, as long as you have a delay-flash timing light to monitor your progress. Unless you're planning to run heavy cargo loads and spend a lot of time with the engine lugged down at full throttle, that midrange centrifugal advance isn't much of a concern. Do you plan to spend a lot of time with the bed full of gravel or sand, pulling steep grades? If not, the rate of advance isn't likely to be much of a factor.
Jerry

Okay, that's good enough for me, thanks. Likely the biggest load the '47 will see is my full belly after a good dinner! I did find a complete distributor here for $35.00. It's about an hour's drive from here and I hope to get it tomorrow.

I found this post on the H.A.M.B. to include some pics:

TECH: Better Late Than Never, Easy HEI Conversion

The only "must do" thing when swapping to a big cap HEI is to be sure that the oil pump drive tang engages fully into the pump lugs. Compare the distance from the vacuum advance bracket on the original distributor to the end of the shaft tang, and do whatever is necessary to assure the length of the replacement matches. Just for insurance purposes, I usually machine the flange off the HEI and fabricate a bracket that can slide up and down the housing to assure I've got full engagement of the pump drive. The part of the old vacuum advance bracket with the pinch bolt works well once the vacuum chamber is removed, or you can fab one from a piece of 3/8" X 1 1/2" aluminum flat bar with a slot and a pinch bolt.
Jerry

Yesterday, I picked-up the distributor. Thanks for the suggestions on securing the distributor to the block. This upgrade looks to be plug and play: machine off the flange, an ignition wire, a tach wire, and a vacuum line. Question, ported or manifold vacuum? The 235 is currently a ported vacuum advance with manifold vacuum used for the wipers and a PCV.

Ported vacuum allows you to set the initial timing without disconnecting the vacuum line, unless you've got the idle speed set high enough to expose the port. The vacuum signal should begin just off idle, and increase with engine speed. On acceleration, hill pulling, or trailer towing, the ported vacuum goes away and you're back to straight centrifugal advance like the original distributor works. The power wire from the ignition switch to the cap needs to be at least a #12- - - -#10 is better. The tach wire is optional, but that's where it gets its signal if you've got an electronic tach.

A hidden toggle switch connected to ground and that tach terminal makes a great anti-theft device.
Jerry

Jerry,

Should a 12V relay be used in wiring up the HEI? I'm wondering how the original ignition switch will hold up to the HEI power.

Thanks,