The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts New Flywheel Ring Gear Arrived

NOS, $20 plus $8 shipping via Priority Mail just arrived! Still had the old Atlas Mfg. Company tag on it, and definately looks new and never installed.

I've got a starter to replace on the wifes '95 Fjord Exploder, then i'm puttin' the wrench on the '46 tranny and at the very least, getting the old flywheel off.

You know, I just feel like saying that every time I have to work on a newer vehicle i'm just awestruck at what a PITA it is.. not just the Fjords, but the Chevys, too.

My '46 starter removal was as simple as sitting on the fender, pulling two bolts and a cotter pin out and VOILA! she's out.. I didn't even get dirty.

Of course, pulling the trans out might prove to be a little more challenging.. i'll report back later!

Glad you got that ring gear! I know what you are saying about the modern stuff. Just before I sold my wife's '99 Exploder with the 5.0 v8 shoe-horned in, I replaced the spark plugs and wires. Had to pull off both front wheels just to have a shot at reaching them all.

Andy

As luck would have it, getting the starter off a 95 Fjord Exploder was quite a treat, and would have taken a anorexic contortionist and a few midgets to do in less than an hour.

I got the old one off in less than two.

By the time she was all buttoned up, it was dark.. and wouldn't ya know it? It's been cold and snowy ever since.

Next decent day I get i'm going to go out and tackle it.

Well there was about an inch of cow poop and mud coating the trans, I couldn't even figure out where the bolts were that held it on.. so I spend I good hour or more out there with a wire brush, a paint scraper, and a small "toothbrush sized" wire brush to get her pretty clean.

The mud tomb it was in must have served to protect it, because i'll tell ya.. it looks like a new transmission once the dried, hardened muck was removed.

With the speedo cable removed the hand brake assembly removed, and the drive shaft dropped, it was a simple matter of four bolts and out and up the tranny came.

A little oil came out one of the front bolt holes that attached it to the bell housing and I was shocked to see it was as clean and pretty as thick honey.. so i've got high hopes that my tranny is A-OK.

After lunch, i guess the next step is to figure out how to get the bell housing off so I can pull the clutch and get to the flywheel.

There's a "top" panel to the floor (that goes behind the gas pedal, stomp start pedal) that i've been hitting with WD40 in an attempt to make removing it's screws go easier.. I guess my first step will be to get that booger off and out to give me a better view of what i'm dealing with.

No doubt i'm going to have a fair amount of "muck removal" in order to really get a look at what needs to come off.

Any suggestions or tips are appreciated!

F46;

Go Ahead and pull the panel and the floor board to take a look and get some wiggle room, but you can probably get the flywheel off without doing it. It will allow you to clean and paint the panel before putting it back. The same goes for the floor board.

I pulled my flywheel by going through the transmission hole and the bottom of the bell housing. I bent the locks back, used a c-clamp to prevent the flywheel from turning and a breaker bar to loosen the bolts. You will have to manually turn the flywheel to get to each section of bolts. Your replacement will only go onto the alignment pins one way, I think. Mine did. Need some confirmation from the rest of you on this. I recommend cleaning, sanding and reconditioning the floor boards and the tranmission while you have them apart. It is a quick fix and is a visible sign of progress, gives you hope when things get to look overwhelming. My guess is your Transmission is OK. Don't be afraid to power wash anything. A clean undercarrage makes life a lot easier.

Well the clutch is still in the way, isn't it?

Keep in mind, i'm no mechanic.

I originally thought I could get the clutch and flywheel out just by pulling the trans and getting access thru the "hole" and at the bottom of the bell housing, but it's not clear to me how to get the clutch and whatnot out of the way with the bell housing attached.

You can,t remove the bell housing untill you pull the clutch & flywheel. Remove 2 clutch bolts & turn engine til you can get to 2 more Etc. Hold the pressure plate up & remove the disc then remove the plate though the bottom. Remove the flywheel bolts & lower the flywheel through the bottom.

Ok..

[img]http://www.geekoasis.com/images/clutchass.gif[/img]
The bolt holes for the bolts holding on "doohickey 'D'" go all the way thru the flywheel (F), so I just got a bolt that matched the thread, and screwed it in a few turns.

When I went to turn the bolt head on the other side, the flywheel would turn till my added bolt came to rest up against the bottom of the bell housing and that made breaking loose the bolts there a piece o' cake.

Now my problem is that two of the bolt heads that hold "doohickey 'D'" on are rusted bad, and I can't get a wrench on 'em snug.. so i'll probably have to Sawzall or Dremel the heads off and tap 'em out once the flywheel is out.

So what you guys are saying is that once I get 'D's bolts out, she outta just drop down out of the way, then I can use a simular method to remove the bolts from 'E' and then the same for the flywheel?

I might try and get a tight pair o' vice grips on those two rusted bolt heads on 'D' before I go the cutting the heads off route.. actually.. i'm gunna try that now.

B is your throw out bearing. C and D are your Pressure Plate. E is your clutch. your clutch isn't bolted to anything it rides on transmission shaft so you have to be careful lining it up.

Fumblin,
I thought that your motor was stuck, but it isn't. That is great! Once you get the pressure plate assembly off, the flywheel bolts will be accessible. They have a very shallow head so a six point socket is a must. The locks need to be tapped back out of the way. If they aren't, the socket will have less head depth to grab on.

Usually it is easiest to back off the pressure plate bolts a bit at a time around the circle. If you just remove them, the last few are tricky because the clutch springs are pushing on them.

It sounds like you are making great progress!

Well after getting done with some other projects, and between uncooperative weather spurts on days I DID have free, I finally got the clutch out and the flywheel off!

Some WD40 and a wire brush got the flywheel lookin' just about brandy spankin' new. I had to cut the heads of two bolts that held the pressure plate to the flywheel off because they were impossible to get a wrench on.

So there was a bit of a "neck" sticking out of the flywheel where each head was chopped.. I was able to get the first one off with a pair of vice grips. The second one, of course is being a little stubborn!

I let it soak overnight with the WD, and tomorrow i'll get to work on removing the old bolt and putting the flywheel back on.

It's gunna be another week before i'm going to have the extra jack to buy a new clutch, pressure plate, and throwout bering.. so once the new ring gear is on the flywheel and the flywheel is re-attached, i'll spend the time getting that ole 235 running.

The old clutch dosen't look bad, but it's rusty and it's had mice living in it for god only knows how long.. I figure while i've got it torn apart, it just makes sence to replace that stuff.. I don't wanna have to pull the tranny again anytime soon, know what I mean?

Well the old bolt came out smooth as silk after a night of soakin' in WD40, and I got out the propane torch in preperation to heat the ring and put it on the flywheel.

Well after about 45 minutes of that, I decided I was getting nowhere fast.. so I decided to try stickin' the ring in the BBQ grill.. but alas.. no propane.

What next? You guessed it! The wife wasn't home, and it was a NOS gear so it wasn't all greasy or oily, so in the kitchen I went!

I set the oven for 475, and while she was pre-heating, I laid a old rug next to the oven door. Next I grabbed one of those aluminum disposable pans we use to cook pizzas on and it was just the right size for the ring gear. About that time, the pre-heat was done, so in went the ring gear!

While it was "cookin'" I went outside, got the flywheel and laid it on the old rug in the kitchen. After cooking about 30 minutes I popped it out of the oven, laid it on the flywheel and it just dropped right on. No pounding, no pushing no nothing.. just flop it was there!

With a heavy glove on my hand, I ran my hand around the edge to make sure she was nice and flush, then, since I was already in the kitchen.. I made myself a couple of sandwiches to celebrate!

After lunch, the flywheel was cool to the touch, so off I went to re-install the flywheel, which went on pretty easy.

In went the battery.. since the ground wire is bolted to the tranny, and the tranny isn't currently bolted to the engine, I just clamped a jumper cable from the neg of the battery to the "hole" in the bell housing where the tranny mounts, then hopped in and stomped on the switch:

Rurrrrrr........ ruh......ruh......rurrrr.

She's turnin' over, but doin' it SLOW. I put a meter on the battery as I was crankin' it over and the voltage dropped from just above 6 to just above 4VDC... my guess is that the battery needs a recharge?

It's a new battery, but it's been sitting in a cabinet in the kitchen for the last few weeks since I bought it. It's only use was when I first bought the battery when I slapped it in the truck and cranked it about 30 seconds before the flywheel ring gear broke.. so perhaps between the usage before and the sitting in the cabinet, it kinda lost some juice?

My ground is pretty solid, and the hot wire was tight on the battery.. I imagine if it wasn't getting a good enough contact, it wouldn't turn the starter over at all, would it?

Now I gotta find a 6V battery charger!

I was just reading previous posts and saw a fellow reccomend putting the ground wire on one of the starter bolts, and several posts that suggest slow cranking might be because of a poor ground.

Maybe my jumpercable ground isn't good enough? I'm gunna go out and play with the ground location and see if it makes any difference.

New modern jumper cables could also be part of the problem. They are not big enough for the old 6 volt systems, you can't flow enough amps. What size wire are your cables? The smaller the number the bigger and better the wire. Some of the cheap jumper sets are made with number 6 or 8 gauge wire which are border line for a 12 volt system! The better cables will be number 1, 2 or 0. I made a set out of welding cables that are 25 feet long so I can jump a car even if we aren't nose to nose.

Mike

Well I went back out, and the jumpercable I was using was pretty puny.. so I got creative!

I took the old ground wire off the transmission.. (not really a wire.. it's really about a foot long braided flat wire) and I sanded down to bare metal a spot right on the truck frame right next to the battery.

I then used a pair of vice grips to clamp the one end of the "ground braid" to the frame, then connected it to the battery.

She turns over faster now, but still not anywhere near the kind of speed you'd expect to have to get an engine to start.

I suspect that perhaps my hot wire isn't getting enough juice to the starter. The ends were pretty crappy earlier this month when I tried my first start and discovered the ringgear was toast, so I cleaned them off good, and it cranked long enough to bust the ring gear.

So I guess tomorrow i'll see about replacing the hot wire cable, and probably get a new ground wire, too.. just for $#its and giggles.

I like the idea of running the ground to one of the starter mounting bolts.. with a heavy enough gauge wire, is there any voltage loss issues with running it to the starter bolt?

Running the ground cable to the motor should be okay, just make sure you are making a good solid connection to clean unpainted metal.

You also need a ground connection to the frame. A cable from the motor end of your ground cable to the frame should make it work. If you don't also ground the frame you'll have trouble with headlights and fuel guage and most anything else electical that is not mounted directly to the motor.

The First Law of Stovebolt Electro-mechanical Physics is "Establish good, clean ground
connections."

The first corollary to the first law is "The best path of electrical resistance is the least path of electrical distance."

The second corollary is "The diameter of wire equals the number of electrons that can be transported in that wire times 10 to the 478th."

There is also an unproven maxim that states, "The amount of smoke contained and remaining in any device or wire subject to the First Law of Stovebolt Electro-mechanical Physics is directly proportional to the percentage of compliance with the first law and its corollaries."

The problem with proving this maxim is (as has been discussed throughout the Stovebolt Garage for centuries) that "smoke," much like enthalpy and entropy, cannot be seen or measured inside electrical devices and wires.

Thus far, every attempt to prove the maxim involves destructive testing. Any test procedure resulting in measurable "smoke" causes the electro-mechanical properties of the device or wire to be so dramatically altered, that the necessary peer review to replicate the test on the same device and, thereby "prove" the maxim, is impossible.

Therefore, we are left with nothing more than doing our best to comply with the First Law of Stoveolt Electro-mechanical Physics.

Well, it sounds like you guys have Fumblin46 on the right track. I just wanted to throw in my two cents worth.

I'd go Glenn one step further and say that his first law should be a commandment Virtually every time I have worked on an electrical issue on my old trucks over the years the final resolution has usually been a grounding problem. Just chant the mantra, "ground good, good ground" over and over again as you work on diagnosing and solving any electrical problem.

On my 3600 (I know, it's not a "big bolt", but it's definitely a "wannabe" :p ) I have a heavy duty grounding strap that goes from the neg terminal of the battery to a point on the frame near the starter. Before attaching, I ground all paint and rust off to get a nice shiny bare metal spot. From the same attachment point, I ran a grounding strap to the starter bolt to ground the engine.

RECAP:

The original ground to battery strap was a thick braided cable bolted to the tranny.

Since the tranny is out, and won't be going back in till next week when I pick up a new clutch, I thought i'd focus on getting the motor running, so I duplicated the original strap method with a jumper cable from the battery to a freshly sanded off spot on the bell housing.

That resulted in solid headlights, turn signals, horn.. but very slow cranking motor.

I sanded off a spot of the frame next to the battery and used a pair of vice grips to clamp the end of the cable on to the shiny spot on the frame.

That resulted in solid headlights, turn signals, horn, AND increased the speed of the motor cranking over, but still not cranking over fast enough.

My thought at this point is whats happening is that whatever connection the frame has to the engine ground wise is not enough to get sufficient juice to the starter motor.

My next step will be to supply a solid HEAVY ground wire to both the engine and the frame, and give it a go. This is a truck, not a guitar, so i'm not worried about ground loops!

More news as it develops! And thanks again to everyone for their suggestions, comments, and tips! I'd probably not have gotten this far this fast without your help!

All 6V 6Cyl motors crank slow . . . whenever uninitiated people listen to any of my trucks crank, they all get wide eyed with amazement when it starts cranking and actually starts and runs. I am amazed myself from time to time.

Hey Fumblin 46. have you checked to see how free the engine is. I can turn my 235 over by just rotating the fan by hand. I dont have too much compression in my enging, but yours should be free enough to do the same. Just a thought.
Ralph

Fumblin,
there is very interesting reading and exciting too! We are all looking forward to that first roar of life!

The way the truck should be wired is:
A short braided strap between the starter frame bolt and the truck frame, a heavy braid between the battery negative and the frame, and a battery cable between the battery positive and the starter.

You should charge up the battery to full. Most places that sell to areas with farms will carry a 6V charger. Also, you will not get good current flow without solid bolted connections. If you want to see how fast it will turn over, take the plugs out and give that a go.

Well.. current is definately an issue.. with one jumper cable from the neg of the battery to the engine and my braided cable from the neg to the frame she turns slow.. when I add a second jumper cable from the battery to the engine she turns even faster.

I didn't have any problems turning the flywheel when I needed to move it around to get the pressure plate bolts off, even with the plugs in it. You can tell theres compression, because you hit that "harder than usual" place in the rotation, and with the plugs out, it turns free without that "harder than usual" spots.

It occoured to me that perhaps these 6V IL6 motors may not turn over nearly as fast as my V6 Jimmy or Exploder, but this beast is turnin' over slow.

Like one "rurr" a second kinda slow.. i'd like to hear at least two "rurrs" a second!

She hasn't been running in quite some time, and I pulled the fuel tank to flush and seal it, so it's probably gunna take some crankin' to get the fuel up to the carb.

Yesterday I put a little gas in the carb and cranked her over with the thought that maybe it was supposed to crank that slow.. but it didn't seem to have any effect.

I see a trip to the auto parts store for some new cables in my future.

Fumblin', your "jumper cable grounding" system is a poor indication of the overall grounding condition. Typically, jumper cables just do not have enough surface area contact, hence limiting the number of electrons in direct confirmation of the second corollary.

By the way, Article One of the Bylaws of the Serious and Solemn Convocation of Stovebolters Anonymous reads, "Do not be afraid!"

In the grand tradition of stovebolters everywhere you should persevere fearlessly. Remind yourself frequently that you are smarter, craftier, and more intelligent than any truck part, electrical charge, or fastener you may encounter. Though each will try constantly to get the upper hand, you will win.

Oh, look! We have a visitor! Joe Nelson, you know you are always welcome to join with the Big Bolt folks for a beer and a cigar. And if John ain't around, you won't have to worry about doin' any pushups!

fumblin46!

To save yourself a whole bunch of time make up a set of battery cables like Mike B says. Use welding cable of '0' gauge. They'll be about 31 inches long if you are using the battery box under the passenger side of the cab. Attach the ground cable to the starter mount bolt and the positive to the starter motor. With other good grounds, like the guys have mentioned here, if that starter is any good you'll get lots of 'rrrrs' per second with a well charged battery. Don't buy those skinny gauge things they sell for 12 volt systems!

Here's for good 'turning' George

Well here's the update.. SHE RUNS!

Well, she did for a solid 20 seconds, and was smooth as silk, and not at all as loud as I would have expected.

I went out and just moved the battery so I could vice grip clamp the braided ground right to a freshly sanded spot on the bell housing.

I hit the stomp switch with my hand, and she cranked over like a banchee!

So then I turn on the fuel line, dump a little gas in the carb, and hit the foot switch.. she's caughing and sounding like she wants to start.. I fiddle with the choke a bit while shes cranking and she takes off.. long enough to burn the gas out of the carb.

So I figure what I gotta do is crank on her a bit with some gas in the carb to get the fuel back up to the carb, so in short 5 to 10 second bursts I crank on her.. and crank on her.. and other than burnin' up what little gas I put in the carb, no signs of life.

I pop the fuel line off the carb, and check the filter.. filter seems ok, so with the fuel line off I crank on her again for about 5 minutes (in short 5 second bursts, of course) and no gas spits out.

Well next I take the line from the fuel pump off, blow it out.. it's clear.. so next I take the fuel line off from the tank to the pump.. she's clear.

I connect the fuel line back to the tank, lean in the engine compartment and give her a suck.. get a mouthful of gas, so I know the line from the tank to the pump is ok.

Well so then I think maybe the pump needs to be primed? I dunno.. but its worth a shot.

I put the lines back on the fuel pump, then pour gas down the line going to the pump from the carb, then get in the truck and hit the switch.. after a second or two, I see gas squirting out the fuel line.

So I pop the fuel line back on the carb, dump a cap full of gas in the carb, hop in the truck and hit the switch and after a few slow cranks, she popped right over and ran.

Now the motor had a slight clank like there wasn't any oil in the top of the engine.. so I decided I probably outta shut it off, put some oil in the top of the motor, then try again.

Well wouldn't ya know it.. now i'm back to the slow "rurr rurr rurr".. I guess all that cranking on it has killed the battery.. and I may or may not have a bad fuel pump.

But at least I know with a fresh battery and some fuel dumped in the line she'll fire and idle!

I guess i'm going to have to buy a 6V battery charger.

You better put a new fuel pump on it. If the lines are clear it should pump up after about 2 times pouring gas in the carb.

After putting some more gas down in the line that goes to the pump, and re-adjusting my "ground clamp" so I had a better "crank" i've not had any fuel pump problems, and she starts on the first "five second stomp".

Tomorrow i'm going to get new radiator hoses, a can of that flush stuff, new oil, and maybe even a clutch.

There are probably several things on the truck that are working now, but probably outta be replaced so they don't decide to quit working on me on the side of the road!

Watch out for the flush stuff. I have talked with several guys who have used it on older engines and then lost soft plugs one by one. Appearently the rust keeps them sealed.