The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop No Start 55 1st Series

Howdy, I’m having a hard time getting my stock 235 to run. It was running ok a few weeks ago. I have it timed close enough, spark and gas. I feel it’s close because I can hear the starter kinda shut off because the fly wheel is moving faster. Any ideas would be great! Thanks in advance!

Get a can of starting fluid and read directions. Remove the air cleaner. Open the carburetor choke and squirt some fluid inside. If the engines fires and tries to run, you may have a fuel problem. If the engine doesn't fire, you may have a spark problem. Post your results. Others will come along and offer a ton of advice. Take it one step at a time. Do the simple stuff first.

Hi thanks for the advice, I tried the starter fluid and it still did not start.
I am getting a strong spark at least I think I am. Thanks again!

"I feel it’s close because I can hear the starter kinda shut off because the fly wheel is moving faster." Please explain what this means. Starter kinda shuts off?
1. Do you have an electromagnetic solenoid? Not a foot start.
2. 6V?
3. What have you done lately? Timed it, opened distributor, moved distributor, removed distributor, replaced anything electrical, plugs, points, condenser, plug wires
4. Running good when parked, then did not start? or didn't try before "tune up" or adjust or timing?
5. Motor cranking at good speed? or pinion disengages too quick?
6. Did starter fluid produce any fire, as in: combustion noise? It's not your fault, everyone does it, but "tried starter fluid but still did not start" is NOT definitive enough for us here at our house. There is "Did not fire at all", "fired a little", "did not even crank over", "ran for a second", "backfired thru carb", "backfired thru exhaust"............ other
7. Do you have stock points distributor? No HEI, no Pertronix



Take out a spark plug, leave wire attached, hold threads of spark plug onto good bare motor metal. Crank for more than 5 seconds. Observe for spark. Motor could start, so be prepared. Looking for snappy strong spark. Don't care about the color. Make sure you do it at night or very low lighting. Report.

Hi thanks again, what I meant was that the starter can’t keep up with flywheel,
Maybe I’m explaining it wrong. It cranks fine,
The truck was running, I took the radiator off and pulled the front main seal and
Replaced it and did a speedy sleeve, go to start and can’t get it to go. It was down for about a month, I first thought it was a fuel problem, but there is definitely gas in the bowl. I have a
12 volt. Foot starter. All wires are in the right places, got nothing when I used the starting fluid. Zilch it did nothing, no coughs nada. I have moved the distributor since I couldn’t get it to go, but
I think it’s timed well, I am getting a good spark. Plug was not wet when I pulled it out to check. Again, I’m sorry if I’m not explaining it correctly. My buddy who is the by far the best mechanic I know, ran a shop for decades and had a 49 was said everything looked good. My guess is perhaps a weird short? I have stock ignition/points.
Thanks again for all your help!

OK understood, Let's discuss the red part. We don't take any of that info to heart. If we did, we would never find your problem. Don't say this and that are good, mechanic says good, getting good spark, timed well, wires are in the right places............because something is not good. Something is not right. The absolute worst thing you can do is state those things. Just tell us what is wrong and perform tasks and test as directed.
So now, lets us understand a few more unclear statements. Be patient with us, we WILL get you started. Some members may understand what you said, but I don't.
But I'm trying to roll on this for you and this is the way I have to roll. Getting the symptoms dead right before the tests and remedy.

1. "Can't get it to go" is just another way of saying it won't even fire?
2. So with the fluid sprayed into carb, motor did nothing at all except spin? Not one bang.
3. On top of that, starter can't keep up with flywheel? What EXACTLY does that mean? Does the small pinion on starter disengage flywheel even if you keep your foot down or what? Be advised that if motor is not starting, not firing, there is no "keeping up" with the flywheel. The starter is turning the flywheel. If motor did fire or start to run, then the flywheel would be turning on it's own and could outpace a messed up pinion "bendix".
4. Let us know when and how you yourself observed a spark jumping a spark plug gap. Spell out your exact method in detail.
5. Are you going to do the tasks as we present them or someone else? Do the plug test I posted.
6. Copy this list of questions into your next post and answer one at a time, in red, next to the question. You missed several last list. That method is mush easier for everyone.
7. Let us know if you are somewhat handy with mechanics in general.
8. I did see your discussion on timing. I did not see your follow up. You don't need a vacuum gauge because your motor won't even fire. I didn't get the feeling you got the BB in the window, on the pointer, on plug 1 compression stoke in that post. And since then you have also said "I got it close enough". This is not sounding so good. Do it again.
9. Do you have a ballast resistor?
10. Do you have a 12V starter?
11. Do you have a 12V coil with two wires on the pos terminal?
12. Is marked internally resisted or externally resisted?
13. Do you have a stock points distributor?
Make sure of your answers please.

All we have are words. We live off of words. We try to get exact meaning before blasting a bunch of guesses. You will improve as you understand our plight. just pretend we are not there to see, hear, smell, observe or test.......because we are not. Please let me know if I have misinterpreted something. I have done that before.

If you got no response to a properly administered spray of starter fluid, it ain't gas, it's spark or timing. Lack of spark, at the right time, is all the way from battery to plug gap. Gears and chains. Lotta stuff in between.

[color:#FF0000]Thank you again for your very detailed reply. I'll try my best to answer the questions.

1. "Can't get it to go" is just another way of saying it won't even fire?
A-The truck will not fire at all, no sputtering, coughing.
[/color]


2. So with the fluid sprayed into carb, motor did nothing at all except spin? Not one bang.
A-Yes, that is correct no bang at all. Nothing.

3. On top of that, starter can't keep up with flywheel? What EXACTLY does that mean? Does the small pinion on starter disengage flywheel even if you keep your foot down or what? Be advised that if motor is not starting, not firing, there is no "keeping up" with the flywheel. The starter is turning the flywheel. If motor did fire or start to run, then the flywheel would be turning on it's own and could outpace a messed up pinion "bendix".
A-After about 5 seconds of cranking, there is a different sound, like a whirl, it might be the small pinion disengaging but I'm not sure.


4. Let us know when and how you yourself observed a spark jumping a spark plug gap. Spell out your exact method in detail.
A-Pulled number on plug rested it against block and saw it spark while friend cranked engine.

5. Are you going to do the tasks as we present them or someone else? Do the plug test I posted.
A-I will do the test myself

6. Copy this list of questions into your next post and answer one at a time, in red, next to the question. You missed several last list. That method is mush easier for everyone.
A-Tried to make them red but I think I was screwing it up.

7. Let us know if you are somewhat handy with mechanics in general.
I'm not an expert mechanic but have worked on cars for some time, basic stuff front end, brakes, engine maintenance

8. I did see your discussion on timing. I did not see your follow up. You don't need a vacuum gauge because your motor won't even fire. I didn't get the feeling you got the BB in the window, on the pointer, on plug 1 compression stoke in that post. And since then you have also said "I got it close enough". This is not sounding so good. Do it again.
A-The white BB is lined up with the flywheel arrow when the rotor is pointed to number six.
9. Do you have a ballast resistor?
A-No,
10. Do you have a 12V starter?
A-I think it is 6 V

11. Do you have a 12V coil with two wires on the pos terminal?
A-Only one wire on POS terminal
12. Is marked internally resisted or externally resisted?
It says use with external resistor on the body of the coil
13. Do you have a stock points distributor?
A-Yes, all stock.

Thank you for your valuable input, patience and expertise!
PJDEE

Number 3.

"A-After about 5 seconds of cranking, there is a different sound, like a whirl, it might be the small pinion disengaging but I'm not sure."

That's not normal. When you crank the the engine, and the engine doesn't fire at all, it should be a continuous cranking sound. With the symptoms you describe, it makes me believe you have a problem with the starter or missing teeth on the flywheel. Think it over and see if that might be your problem. If not, we'll move on to something else.

180* out of time?

It’s cranking fine, sorry to add to the confusion, all the teeth are there in the flywheel I’ve used a screwdriver many times to turn it to get the bb lined up.

Okay. If the starter and flywheel are good then the sound you are hearing is due to the engine trying to fire (trying to run on it's own).
Stated differently, the engine is overcoming the speed of the starter.
Does that make sense with what your are hearing?

Yes. I believe that’s what I’m hearing.

I crawled underneath and moved the flywheel so the dot is lined up. The rotor was close to pointing to the one wire/plug. I turned the distributor a tad to rotor lined up exact with number one. I still had the same results when trying to start.

The BB or dot timing can be several degrees off but it will still run so as long as you are in the ballpark which is good enough for now.
It sounds like timing to me. Two things to think about. Mentally retrace your steps of what you did after the truck was last running.
Timing cover seal (speedy-sleeve) and distributor. Would you provide more detail (elaborate)?

*) Heaven forbid that the camshaft gear was damaged when the seal was replaced.
*) Is is possible for the distributor to be 180 degrees out of position IF you removed the bolt and clamp and lifted the distributor up.

I'm expecting Hotrod Lincoln to step in next and tell you how to check timing by watching the rocker arm movement. He can explain better that I.

I know bartamos gets frustrated when folks jump in with suggestions before you have done all his tests but, remove #1 spark plug and place your finger tightly over the #1 spark plug hole. Now have someone slowly bump the starter turning the crankshaft until your finger is pushed off the plug hole with a whooshing rush of air. STOP cranking immediately. You are now at TDC on #1 compression stroke. Look and see where the BB is in the hole. Now look and see where the rotor is pointing. If it’s not pointing to #1 distributor tower move the wires accordingly keeping the correct firing order. You say you have a strong spark so the only other things you need for the engine to run are spark at the right time, fuel and compression. My feelings are that since it previously ran and it wouldn’t fire off on starting fluid, some component of the ignition system has moved out of spec or you have lost compression. Good luck.

Ok, I had a front seal leak, I removed the grill and radiator. I pulled off the balencer and replaced the seal and then put a speedy sleeve on the shaft. A month passed for all this to take place. Since then the distributor has never been out of the engine but the distributor has been turned many times.

Ok, I rechecked everything again, I could
NOT get a spark on the plugs. Yesterday, there was one and
for the past week a good spark as well. I did get a spark from
the coil plug that connects to the center of the distributor.

Thank you for the reply! I’ll do that soon. I did a compression check last
Month it was fine. I think you are correct something is up
With the ignition system. Thanks again!

Martin, you know me too well No problem. The questions were to flush out a few things and it's working. You guys are on the scent. No ballast, no bypass, no spark. I also am wondering if the spring on the starter pinion/over running clutch is broken. It may be starting to fire but by now you would think it would fire enough times for him to hear combustion noise.....and tell us it's firing. He has an external resisted coil and no bypass, but that should not prevent starting unless he has already burnt out the points. Maybe he should install the bypass then get new points. This is a 12V conversion I assume.

PJDee: these are actually questions:
1. I assume you have a 12V battery.
2. You didn't answer, but I will assume coil is 12V.
3. I will assume "arrow on flywheel" is a pointer that is not part of the flywheel.

You need to do the timing as Martin says. Get a ballast resistor, a starter button with a side terminal and new points and condenser.

There is a stationary pointer in the "window". You line up the BB exactly on it at no 1. compression stroke, then adjust distributor so rotor is pointing to no. 1 tower. Check firing order vs distributor wires to plugs.

Hi, that is correct I had spark yesterday and all prior times, today this am. No spark from the sparkplug. I do have spark coming from the wire that goes from the center of the coil to the center of the distributor. Thank you my
Stovebolt detectives for all your time and advice!

pjdee. I was still typing, please re read above. Thanks for the good responses. Check to see that the rotor is installed. Check to see it is rotating. Check points gap carefully. Check distributor cap. if all is good, buy a new condenser.

There's too many cooks in this kitchen already. I'm just sitting back and watching the show for now.
Jerry

Martin, tell me about it!

Sometimes we step on each others toes but at least Stovebolt has one of the few forums where members still try to help each other out with some civility.
Then Jerry comes in and provides us all with comic relief. It's perfect.
I visited a 40's/50's Olds website the other day. It was like a ghost town.
It's depressing to think that most of those old cars, in that time period, have been recycled for scrap.
Count our blessings.

I have some fresh popcorn, so I will only add that it sounds like we are dealing with the dreaded two-problems-at-the-same-time scenario. This makes things more challenging.

It becomes more important to test components rather than looking for a magic gremlin, or throw parts at the engine, or tear the carburetor apart.

Yes I agree. Maybe more than two. I figure we need to get his 12V ignition system built correctly, gapped, timed ...., as in a "boiler plate". It seems all screwed up by the 12V converter person. Then begin some tests. Seems to be missing these type of things.

Buttered or plain?

I’d say you’re right, but if I am following correctly, the thing ran OK before the crankshaft sealing project? In spite of not being quite boilerplate?

Yes, this is a tough customer, but I like the challenge. For me it's a semantics challenge, a no fire challenge, a history challenge, a possible multi issue challenge and a boiler plate status challenge. Your logic is correct but can't be used in this case. Spark at coil tower and none at plugs........so what is between there and the plugs you say to yourself. But after the radiator/sleeve bit, there was spark yesterday and not today. The poor spark has to jump three gaps to ignite vapor. Too much playing with the distributor and not getting timing right.

Cap, Rotor, stuck points, no ground or something grounding................ condenser.

I realize the lack of a bypass would not stop spark, 6V coil will still spark.

I recently went through a kinda similar adventure with my truck. An inexplicable no spark condition, which resolved itself, but sent me down a rabbit hole trying to understand why I didn’t have textbook voltage at all the right spots.

Learned some things. Fixed some stuff that may have been unrelated to the problem, but wasn’t really “right.”

Anyway, reading this saga may be of some use to the original poster.

Thread

Since there are signs of intermittent spark, could it possibly be a bad ground someplace? Possibly the starter is drawing all of the current and there is not enough for the coil?

Thanks again for all you help and advice! It’s lbeen pretty hot and I have not had a chance to attack it. Hopefully I’ll be able to go down the rabbit hole shortly.
Stay cool!

Howdy, sorry to take so long to keep you guys posted on my misadventures!
Well, I bought a new condenser and points and it fired right up! Thank you for all your advice and wisdom! I really appreciate it!
Keep on Truckin’!

Ahhh the sweet smell of victory!